Lionel Rio Grande Ski Train Generator Car not Long Enough

It's perhaps that this isn't one of the passenger cars. It's a generator car.  The prototype might not be the same length as the passenger cars. Why do you need it to be the same length as the passenger cars? 

All of my Union Pacific passenger cars are 21" approx. I'm trying to accurately replicate one of the UPs generator cars. This particular power car is the same length as all the rest of the passenger cars prototypically.

I just got off the phone with Lionel...In the catalogs there is legal speak about changes to color, length, etc., blah, blah, blah.
So this now boils down to try and getting all my money back from the vendor. I feel this will unlikely.

And to add insult to injury...

Hmmmm . . . now, that box is a problem, the way I see it.  I do not mean to imply that there has been intentional deception, but who among us carries a tape measure to the train store?

It would be interesting to know if Lionel -- the business -- has a set of internal Company values that the company embraces.  Most businesses do, these days.  Then it would be interesting to know where this improperly printed box fits into those values.  After all, this is one of their higher end products, and the Lionel customer base for models of this quality includes a fair percentage of knowledgable modelers who expect accuracy.

Usually, when unintentional mistake, such as an inaccurately printed box, leads a customer to make a purchase that he would otherwise not have made, then the manufacturer takes responsibility and sees to it that the customer is satisfied and that he will buy that brand in the future.

The real car was only 65’ long so even the 18” car is too long. The ski train used a modified PB-1 as the generator car.

https://actionroad.net/ski-train/ski-train-power/

@Number 90 posted:

Hmmmm . . . now, that box is a problem, the way I see it.  I do not mean to imply that there has been intentional deception, but who among us carries a tape measure to the train store?

Just a bit of side history, those 'Nekot' crackers you might buy were first made in the early 20th Century.  When the first production run of the wrapper was printed, they were printed in reverse so that when the package was glued together, it should have read, 'Token'.  The company lived with the mistake, and 'Nekot' was born.

@SuperChief posted:

The real car was only 65’ long so even the 18” car is too long. The ski train used a modified PB-1 as the generator car.

https://actionroad.net/ski-train/ski-train-power/

Not disputing that at all. It's the fact that the manufacture has EVERYTHING about the car labeled as 22".

@Jayhawk500 posted:

Not disputing that at all. It's the fact that the manufacture has EVERYTHING about the car labeled as 22".

The big 21inch designation on the box is the dead giveaway!….

Pat

So, let me get this straight.

It was 4 inches too short, but now it's 3 inches too long....according to the box....or not...🤔

Certainly a very creative look at the Anshutz Ski Train. Good grief.

“California” the Ex-NP dome is a sort of ok .. ? 🥴

Rapido did them right in 1/87 why didn't Lionel scale these up like is done with some other projects?

The predecessor SkiTrain used Northern Pacific heavyweight coaches and were literally falling apart when the VIA Tempo cars arrived in 1988.

Pecos River Brass did the Wilson McCarthy in 1/48 scale which can be modified easily to Kansas in the Anschutz era.

You could easily modify DRGW 1231 by PRB to the modern era version with a hack saw on the skirts haha 😂.

@SuperChief posted:

The real car was only 65’ long so even the 18” car is too long. The ski train used a modified PB-1 as the generator car.

https://actionroad.net/ski-train/ski-train-power/

https://www.drgw.net/info/SteamGeneratorCar’

The steam generator was an Ex-Alco PB #253 in the later years rode on EMD trucks. It was NOT a baggage car thing. I’ve seen guys do this power car in 1/48 scale using a Lionel PB shell and parts from P&D Hobby Shop HOWEVER this power unit was not used with the Tempo fleet at all so lightweight cars in this simulation blow this completely.

This is so remarkably difficult to do without breaking the copyright policy here on OGR, sorry for the scattered data. Hope this helps  

OK I give up.. 🤪 It’s a toy train I get it. Just why so many creative issues on this I’ll never understand maybe Scott at GGD will consider the Tempo cars in 1/48 for us and or the Northern Pacific wood coaches that were used first through 1988. Those uniquely NP round top windows, Labelle makes a similar design a builder could make them right, but do we need them right? Right ? Haha 😆 like I wrote I give up.

These Lionel offerings look great just not accurate at all on either option, version 1 or 2.

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

OK I give up.. 🤪 It’s a toy train I get it. Just why so many creative issues on this I’ll never understand

These Lionel offerings look great just not accurate at all on either option, version 1 or 2.

Lionel has a history of using existing tooling if it gets them as they deem, " close enough" , to keep costs down.

Add to that." Said existing tooling "may be accurate for a specific roadname and will be used for other road names as "close enough" to appeal to more buyers.

The 21” box marking should be the clincher for a full refund, including shipping.

IMHO, this is why BTO is basically legalized Fraud in the Inducement.

We are shown a product in a catalog, asked to pay for it before seeing it, receive a product that is not as advertised, and are then forced to accept the legal disclaimer in the Catalog that, essentially, says the product you receive may not look or operate like this.

Booo..........

Also, if I were the OP, I'd fight the 15% restocking fee and ask to be made whole on the return shipping.

A little bit of perspective on prototype lengths of streamlined baggage cars.  The length of the car should be approximately 18".  72' in length accounts for the lack of vestibules on either side of the car.  When the vestibules are added the car is then 85' in length from pulling face of couplers, so the actual car is technically a little less than 85'.  The truck center to center spacing should be the same for both cars.  Not saying it is, but that is how the prototype would have been done. 

Won't get into the whole PB1 discussion that has already occurred in this thread for the correct HEP car that ran behind F40PHs on this train when the train was upgraded in the 1980's.  However, this car does have a prototype in phase I Amtrak and was used with GG1s and Amfleet cars in Clocker and Metroliner service.  I suspect that will be a future Lionel offering for this tooling.

My Vision Line GG1 Box states "GG1 Steam Locomotive".  As noted above, this is box labeling issue in my opinion. 

Well…..just for fun I’ll interject a few of my Real life pix from Denver and Winter Park Co late 1987 or early 88. These are phone shots of my original color prints.

3128 is a GP40-2

So cool taking the train Right To The Slopes Base !!!!  

Cheers 😉   ……
or should I say    
Chills 🥶🥶🥶

@RickO posted:

So, let me get this straight.

It was 4 inches too short, but now it's 3 inches too long....according to the box....or not...🤔

No. The actual car inside the box, inside the plastic packaging is 18" in length.  All the advertising that was put out by Lionel states the car is/will be/would be 22" long. Google the model number above. The orange box that has the 18" car inside says 21" Passenger car.

So.....the car is actually 4" shorter than advertised.  If you go by what's on the box...the car is 3" shorter.

This has nothing to do with the Ski Train and everything to do with not getting what's advertised. Since I can't go to a train store (none within 100+ miles) and physically put my hands on the car that's physically inside the box to ensure I'm getting what I want. I have to trust whats printed and buy online.

@TrainBub posted:

Well…..just for fun I’ll interject a few of my Real life pix from Denver and Winter Park Co late 1987 or early 88. These are phone shots of my original color prints.

Terrific shots TrainBub!!!

A few of mine in 2005-2007

I think the Original Poster actually has the answer in front of him. Lionel used a fishermans ruler when they said it was 22 inches long.  When he used his wife's ruler it was shorter... happens all the time.

Chris, the OP, expected and wanted a 21" car as advertised and stated on the box.  Based on what Chris has provided, I believe Lionel should give him a full refund without a restocking fee.

That said, I would have been happy to see that it was only 18" and closer the the prototype's actual length of 16.25".  Also makes the train more interesting.

Hi @Jayhawk500

Its clear that that catalog was wrong,  it should have said that the cars in that set were to be 21 inches long. The cars in the Delaware & Hudson set on pages 24 and 25 look to be the same as the Rio Grande set and they are listed as 21" cars.

The power car that you have is similar to the recent vision line horse cars.  Those are shown as 19 inch cars.

Southern Pacific Vision Horse Car #7200 (lionelstore.com)

The current 2023 V1 catalog  (print edition) has the 4-8-4 steam engine running on 031 curves and the the Gold Mountain 5-Star general type engine needing 42" curves.  Those are obvious mistakes, some  were fixed in the online version.  Everyone tries hard to get these numbers correct, probably proofed several times, the 2021 V1 catalog is 225 pages long.

The Rio Grande set looks super.  I agree with @CAPPilot above regarding the shorter lenght for power car is a better outcome since is closer to the prototype, but understand that this may be a deal breaker for you since you are trying to match the UP set, which are clearly 21" including their power car.

Hope this helps.

@DL Brunette posted:

but understand that this may be a deal breaker for you since you are trying to match the UP set, which are clearly 21" including their power car.

Hope this helps.

CORRECT!
The only reason I was going to use the Ski Train Power car was, it had everything already. I didn't have to piece part my project together. My plan is to acturately model the UPP 2066 Power Car. The prototype is 85' long. ALL of the UP's passenger cars in the current livery are 85' long, give or take. Lionel has produced beautiful 21" cars to simulate the 85' prototypes. This is the necessity for the 21" car to be the donor. I have sent the Ski Train Power Car back to the vendor (not Lionel), with the statements that the car was not as advertised. So hopefully, I'll get all my monies back, but I doubt it. Just my kind of luck.

Now, I need to find a baggage car for the donor and piece part that together.

Like I stated above, this has nothing to do with the Ski Train, or the vendor. I have to trust what I read and hope for the best. Other companies across this fine country of ours can publish catalogs and have online catalogs that are accurate and not full of disclaimers. Proofing a catalog should be 1 persons main job. A company should be able to put out a full color catalog with accurate information. When you look online and order a part, you get said part. Look at Rockauto, Granger, McMaster-Car, etc., They have THOUSANDS of parts that are acturately catalog and shipped.

I understand updating a catalog is expensive. So then, with a few key strokes ensure that the website acturately depicts what is being sold.
Don't say that's good enough and add disclaimers to cover your behinds.

Okay, I'm done now. I can go on all day.

@Jayhawk500 posted:

CORRECT!
The only reason I was going to use the Ski Train Power car was, it had everything already. I didn't have to piece part my project together. My plan is to acturately model the UPP 2066 Power Car. The prototype is 85' long. ALL of the UP's passenger cars in the current livery are 85' long, give or take. Lionel has produced beautiful 21" cars to simulate the 85' prototypes. This is the necessity for the 21" car to be the donor. I have sent the Ski Train Power Car back to the vendor, with the statements that the car was not as advertised. So hopefully, I'll get all my monies back, but I doubt it. Just my kind of luck.

Now, I need to find a baggage car for the donor and piece part that together.

Like I stated above, this has nothing to do with the Ski Train, or the vendor. I have to trust what I read and hope for the best. Other companies across this fine country of ours can publish catalogs and have online catalogs that are accurate and not full of disclaimers. Proofing a catalog should be 1 persons main job. A company should be able to put out a full color catalog with accurate information. When you look online and order a part, you get said part. Look at Rockauto, Granger, McMaster-Car, etc., They have THOUSANDS of parts that are acturately catalog and shipped.

I understand updating catalog is expensive. So then, with a few key strokes ensure that the website acturately depicts what is being sold.
Don't say that's good enough and add disclaimers to cover your behinds.

Okay, I'm done now. I can go on all day.

Agreed. The excuse given for not living up to that is "oh but it's just a toy train, so who cares."

I honestly am sick of hearing that line and how it is used willy nilly to explain away their failures and give them a pass.  To me, it comes off as smug, arrogant, condescending, and dismissive.

I spend good money on these and I expect better.

If you had the integrity to do better you might be surprised on how much more you would sell.

Chris,

Love your plan and appreciate your situation.

Lionel has a lot of parts as well,  Grainger had 24,000 employees in 2021. Lionel is a small organization with a remarkable brand and a long history.  I think its a "mom and pop" type company and doubt if they have more than a few hundred workers.  It would be helpful if they published an "erratum"  for their catalogs.

The best we can do on the fourm is to alert others of these types of issues.  Perhaps modify your title and adjust your inital post on what you found.