Lionel's focus

But it also means that older products I believe will be better buys and also worth more in the market place

I noticed the same thing, of course. I am a mid-range buyer with the widest curves of 60, then 48 but a couple of 36 switches. I love the detail on the scale pieces but either can't fit them or can't afford them. Not that I CAN'T afford them, just don't want to spend those bucks when, so far, I am the only one enjoying it! There is some beautiful stuff out there, just not for me. Although on a recent trip back to NJ and a visit to my old local Train store, I DID fall for a gorgeous MTH Premier PRR Steam Loco and I am still thinking about it. It COULD work on my layout but sure wish that I could give it a test run first.

Mikki

Go for it Mikki!

I do not know what the market is for the lower priced train sets intended for youths at Christmas, but, if one of my other hobbies is any indication, Amateur Radio, where the average age of a ham today is 70,  I would expect the average age of an O gauger is very high, and those folks tend to have more money for hobbies.  Not to get in a social diatribe, but the collapse of the nuclear family, income levels that have to deal with the cost of housing, transportation, and food, all contribute to families with kids having the minimum for any excess, and the smart phone is an inexpensive way to entertain a kid today.  I need to add in, you grandparents can take up the slack by providing real hobby materials and equipment to your grandkids, build them an O gauge layout, even a small one as I did for my grandson,  that in his case he can roll under his bed, and encourage them to learn and use their hands to do something other than type on a box.

I would suggest that Lionel (and other three rail O gauge trains) were rarely to never inexpensive by the standards of their time, including today.  Perhaps Marx in the postwar period and Menards now.  Indeed, some of the LionChief sets and locos are less expensive than their postwar or MPC equivalents.  But none are affordable for folks on a tight budget.  The high end stuff is in demand or they wouldn't be making it.  Manufacturing changes and built to order may make low volumes practical and profitable, but most people seem to agree (including Lionel when they've talked about it) that the highest dollar volume is in starter sets, not high end locomotives.  The lack of lots of middle of the market pricing (say $400 for locos and $60 for rolling stock) may simply reflect what the demand is.  Primarily highly detailed scale models at the higher end and LionChief locos and sets at the lower end.

As someone pointed out in the catalog discussion,

A $75 700E in 1937 is the equivalent of about $1700 in 2024.

A $67.50 2343 in 1950 is the equivalent of about $900 in 2024.

So is there really a difference between then and now?

How about 4 18” Aluminum streamline passenger cars in 2005 were $550.00.

http://www.lionel.com/products...-car-4-pack-6-29115/

That calculates to $858.00 today. Compare to $1300.00.😳😳😳😳

Pete

I realize that the costs of manufacturing has gone uo and the demand foe higher quality with more features all increases cost. Maybe its true that the older market can afford the best, but there is plenty of older and younger buyers who I would think like to have some more mid priced offerings

@Landsteiner posted:

The lack of lots of middle of the market pricing (say $400 for locos and $60 for rolling stock) may simply reflect what the demand is.  Primarily highly detailed scale models at the higher end and LionChief locos and sets at the lower end.

I notice that Menard's is upping it's quality of rolling stock, the trucks look pretty good now on their latest offering, and they're well below the $60 mark.  Stay tuned for some good stuff from RMT now that also make it well below the $60 mark.

A bigger void is the $300-$400 diesels, and/or steam.

It seemed for awhile like the LionChief 2.0 + series was going to fill the mid-range price void for Lionel, but with a J3A Hudson retail priced at $800.00 in the new Vol. II catalogue, I'm not so sure anymore.

@Richie C. posted:

It seemed for awhile like the LionChief 2.0 + series was going to fill the mid-range price void for Lionel, but with a J3A Hudson retail priced at $800.00 in the new Vol. II catalogue, I'm not so sure anymore.

I've felt LC 2.0 has consistently been overpriced.  These should be priced like Railking locomotives... which often have more detail and the full ps3 operating at a MUCH lower price.   Only the little tank engine seemed to be priced right

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

A bigger void is the $300-$400 diesels, and/or steam.

Railing does a decent job of filling that void, they just don't pump out the volume of product like they used to.  I preordered a Railking RS-1 announced last week from my dealer for $375... LionChief price for LionChief Plus 2.0 features.

Railking is what I mostly have, I am satisfied with them, and they fit my layout and price range. I have a couple of awesome PRR Diesel switchers (awesome to me, as long as I don't start looking at the premiers and other locos some of you guys have!)

Mikki

@Brian DeFazio posted:

I've felt LC 2.0 has consistently been overpriced.  These should be priced like Railking locomotives... which often have more detail and the full ps3 operating at a MUCH lower price.   Only the little tank engine seemed to be priced right

Lionchief Plus 2.0 now have essentially the same board as current Legacy engines. They can be operated with either a Typical LC handheld, App, or a Cab1, Cab1L, or Cab2. Essentially a Traditional size/detailed engine with Legacy. Not only is the initial price higher but the replacement parts as well.

Pete

"These should be priced like Railking locomotives.."

Then Lionel wouldn't have a warranty repair department, catalog, train sets, track and transformers and 50-80 employees or whatever.  MTH can produce a substantially lower priced product in part because there is essentially no support, no full line company, no catalog, etc.  Two different business models and two different companies.  Railking has always been somewhat less expensive than comparable Lionel products.  That was their business model, but now they are two very different companies. Lionel is planning on being around 10-20 years from now, but MTH has no such plan, and has 10% or fewer employees than Lionel. Probably irrelevant to those of us in our 70s or older, but what about those in their 20s-50s?

As evidence of these different approaches, Lionel spent the money on personnel and equipment to develop a substantially new comprehensive command system that encompasses LionChief, TMCC, Legacy and Bluetooth in the Base 3.  In contrast, MTH is coming out with a wi-fi TIU that encompasses technology they have had for five plus years, and actually has less functionality than the TIU that came before (it does not work wirelessly with the DCS handheld).  This is not meant as criticism, just an example about what each company is willing and capable of investing in R&D for the future.

Much of these facts about MTH do not matter to the established hobbyist operating MTH equipment, but it is not a supportive  or forward looking approach for newer hobbyists and future hobbyists.

So I was looking at two scale passenger trains in the new Lionel catalog:

Spirit of St. LOUIS $2200 for the 4 pk , 2pk diner, and 2pk coaches

The American RR train

$3100.00 for the 4pk, 2pk diner, 2pk coach, and the 3pk B60 baggage cars!

Thats going to be tough!

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Thats going to be tough!

Start working overtime!

@Bob is cool! posted:

I"ve followed Lionel for the last 50 yrs.. Bought many trains from them. In the past they focused on good products that were reasonable in price. Many offerings in many areas. Slowly however they've been introducing more high end costly products and cutting back on the middle of the road offerings. They also are offering more very affordable low end products geared toward the youth it seems. I just saw the Vol2 24 catalog. Mostly extremely expensive products. So they're going to price the average buyer out of the market. I've seen this happen in other products. It's too bad they've chosen to do this . But I understand that's were the larger profit is

Companies have always made a profit.   It is the reason they exist.

Way back when in the 1950s, Lionel was making money, a lot of it and the quality of the materials and workmanship, and manufacturing techniques were only so-so.  They were toys.  

The stuff Lionel is doing today is so much better in so many ways.   Part of that is due to the new technologies in paint and casting.  Part is due to the creativity of the design staff and part of is due to the amount of research and development of the modern control systems.

The market and buyer have both evolved.   Today's younger buyers require technology and detail.   Long time collectors have a different frame of reference.  

For me, when decided to start back up with model trains four years ago (I had a bunch of LGB and Aristocraft packed away) I was impressed with possibilities in HO and N.   I decide HO was better even though I have had N scale since childhood.  Every locomotive I liked was between $350 and $600.  I have never been a modeler,  With HO and N modeling a layout is both necessary and expected,   LGB had changed and Arstocraft had disappeared.  

I had never heard of MTH and never owned Lionel.   My local dealer, an MTH guy, informed me that he couldn't in good conscience sell my MTH as a few days ago it was announced that MTH was closing.  So he showed me Lionel.   I spend like a grand on track and went to work.   The price wasn't as important to me as getting exactly what I wanted.   I think a lot of those getting Into the hobby feel the same way.   I enjoy my locomotives very much.  I have already placed an order from 2024 volume 2.  

@prrhorseshoecurve posted:

So I was looking at two scale passenger trains in the new Lionel catalog:

Spirit of St. LOUIS $2200 for the 4 pk , 2pk diner, and 2pk coaches

The American RR train

$3100.00 for the 4pk, 2pk diner, 2pk coach, and the 3pk B60 baggage cars!

Thats going to be tough!

With the early buy discounts you can get the Spirit of St Louis cars for $1585 or almost 28% off. That’s still a lot of money but better. What I would like to know is why can we get better discounts on passenger cars than engines? The best discount on engines was 16%. Is that Lionels policy or the vendors policy? I am a loyal Lionel buyer but would like to see at least a 20% discount on engines.

@JohnB posted:

With the early buy discounts you can get the Spirit of St Louis cars for $1585 or almost 28% off. That’s still a lot of money but better. What I would like to know is why can we get better discounts on passenger cars than engines? The best discount on engines was 16%. Is that Lionels policy or the vendors policy? I am a loyal Lionel buyer but would like to see at least a 20% discount on engines.

I'd just like to see the MSRP come back to reality, then we wouldn't be harping about discounts.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd just like to see the MSRP come back to reality, then we wouldn't be harping about discounts.

That would be nice but I am not going to hold my breath.

@JohnB posted:

That would be nice but I am not going to hold my breath.

AAMOF, if it ever comes up for a bet, I'd bet against any price reductions!