Lionel's USRA scale heavy pacific models - how is the boiler casting?

I am highly critical of U shape boilers.  The original 700e had a round boiler, but modern electronics dictate compromises.

I have a Lionel FEF (converted) - the boiler is two-piece, to accommodate all electronics.  It is not bad, for what started out as a 3-rail model.

I know that doesn't answer your question.  I too would like to know more about where Lionel is heading.  Good thing they did not die cast the PA, or I would be selling my Overland and converting the Lionel.

I also have the Lionel 4-12-2.  I may not convert it, but it appears to be a faithful model, all things considered.

Did Lionel ever make a USRA Pacific? The made the Southern Ps4 and painted it and lettered it for other roads but that is not a USRA pacific.

Pete

Pete - I believe they did - mine was an Erie Pacific ~ I recall it was a new model for Lionel around 2001 or so - after they moved production overseas. I think they've re-issued in various roadnames since with the latest batch due later this year.

Bob - I am not a fan of the monolithic casting for steam models either.

Paul, doesn't the Erie Pacific have the Elesco feedwater heater? If so its a repainted Southern Ps4 which came out maybe a year or two earlier. Another repainted Ps4 is the Blue Comet. Compare your Erie with the MTH Pacific which is a USRA. Similar but you should see the differences.

Lionel did the same thing with their Southern Mikado from the late '90s. Its not USRA but they painted it many colors for other roads. Great engine, but not USRA.

Lionel could be using one of their USRA Mikado shells (think K-Line for the light Mikado) which would be accurate as they were essentially the same except for wheel arrangement.

Pete

Pete - I sold my Erie a long time ago. It may be a PS4 Pacific - and may be the same as used in the Blue Comet and other pacifics. They are advertising the latest batch as USRA pacifics. Now, I wonder if it'll be a new model casting?

I double-checked the 2018 catalog - while illustrations it does show the underside of the boiler - which appears to be a U-shaped boiler casting.

Careful - the Erie Pacific is too long to be a Pacific. It is the same platform that was used for the scale red Chicago and Alton Pacific. I believe that their original scale PRR K4 had the same problem  They weren't really "scale", though, as they are too long (in the firebox).

The later Lionel K-Line-descended PRR K4 is the correct length.

These too-long locos are about the same length as the (well-done) Lionel USRA Mountain, which came in several road names. Perhaps this length commonality was a help in manufacturing tooling and jigs; I don't know. I turned my Lionel Erie "Pacific" into a freelance Hudson - that NYC 4-wheel trailing truck tucks under there easily, with little modification.  

Lionel's later scale Ps4 Southern 4-6-2 is not the same platform and is a good model.

The Erie (and Alton and PRR) locos are handsome, but wrong. The Erie version does not capture the heft of the real USRA Heavy (Erie K-5), however - partly due to the length.

What Pacific does emulate the USRA Heavy Pacific? The old brass Williams/Samhongsa 4-6-2. Husky and handsome. Just needs paint to get rid of the shine and chrome.

I'm inclined to agree with @D500.  Among Lionel's previously issued Pacifics, the Southern Ps4 is the only one that seems to have accurate proportions.  The Alton, Blue Comet, and 6-38025 PRR K4 are too long in the firebox area.  IMO in these cases Lionel should have made the casting the correct length, and used a shorter Pittman motor like the 9432.  I don't like the later, K-Line derived K4 or any of the Mikados because they have a tiny motor angled forward inside the boiler.  K-Line did this to cut costs and crack the scale loco market at a $600 price point when others were charging $800 or more.  But 1,000,000 modelers in other scales aren't wrong- the motor is the heart of a loco, and the best place for it is the firebox because it permits the largest motor (which translates to more torque, smoother running, better pulling, etc.)  And there are other serious drawbacks to the K-Line design which are outside the scope of this thread.

@Paul Kallus I'm not sure what you mean about monolithic construction.  Most 3-rail locos have die-cast boilers.  Presumably in order to release from the mold, the inside of the boiler resembles an upside-down 'U' with a fairly wide opening.  Some locos such as the first generation MTH Premier Berkshires, the Lionel Milwaukee S-3 and the first Legacy FEF have the lower half of the boiler cast separately.  This lower piece mates with the upper half.  The seam is hidden by the walkways, and together they give a good impression of a full round boiler.  You can see what I'm talking about for yourself if you look at the exploded parts diagrams on lionelsupport.com.

Some smaller locos such as the 0-8-0s have a nice boiler that goes most of the way around, at least near the smokebox (front.)

If you want better you'll have to go with brass.  3rd Rail does the round boiler especially well.  They don't need a large opening for a gearbox, because they use a belt-and-pulley arrangement to drive a lower layshaft hidden at frame level.  So you'll see prototypical "daylight" between the boiler and the chassis.  The downside to their approach is that to keep the shaft and gearbox out of sight, the worm wheel on the driving wheel axle must be fairly small.  This reduces pull-in torque, which is important when starting with slack stretched, etc.  Puts and takes.  Good topic!!

Lionel's heavy Mikado shell is correct for this engine. I would be surprised if they don't use this. Whether they choose to put it on a K-Line light Pacific frame or on a redesigned frame with larger motor is up to them. Looking at what MTH is calling a heavy Pacific looks more like a light Pacific. Given only 20 were made and they all went to the Erie I am surprised they are doing this.

Pete

Ted - you described the boiler casting better than I did - the newer Lionel Reading T-1 has the rounded underside as well. It makes for a more accurate model. I appreciate that they're all toys - but I do seem to like the more accurate boilers - the rounded underpart makes a model stand out just like when you're looking at the real thing.

fwiw: I read a George Brown OGR review of the Lionel scale Berkshire a few years ago - and he used the term "monolithic" to describe the boiler casting which relates to the boiler and what would in reality be the leaf springs and part of frame. I didn't know what he meant at the time, and then I started studying how Lionel and MTH cast their models.