Lionel Scale F-3s

Actually I think all of Lionels F3s are scale size, even the Post War versions, but for scale detail one clue is the pilots. Most all is not all of the scale engines have the freight pilots while the post war and post war replicas have the smooth passenger pilots.

 

Pete

Look up Lionel #14588 .... all of those in that series are scale. Road numbers 16, 17, 18, and 19 all TMCC ... there are other scale units but hopefully that will clear up your confusion. You can find all of them on Ebay

PW units are NOT to scale

Laid-off....thanks but I'm not interested in just Santa Fe. I'm looking at EL, WP, B&O and possibly one other which are highly detailed and scale. For example, the WP of 2003 is  made with new tooling and appears to be scale but is not listed as scale....however the WP released in 2013, which is Legacy equipped, is listed as scale, yet both appear to be made with the same new tooling. The B&O of 2003 made with new tooling is not listed as scale, but the EL of 2005, equipped with Legacy, is  described as scale. You might think that Legacy is the deciding factor, but it is not. So, what defines scale on the F-3s??

Shouldn't it be overall dimensions?  If undersized in any dimension, the use of the term would seem to be misleading.

PW units are NOT to scale

Correct. Besides a funky side design issue, the windshields are not big enough.

 

What defines the scale units was the new tooling of 2003. Freight and passenger pilots were used with this tooling. Also movable diaphragms on each unit. 

 

The windshields are more to scale also plus better detailing. 

 

In 2003 the first scale units were the Santa Fe and Erie Lackawanna. 

 

The PW models are not scale units in any way. 

If you guys are going to pick nits I think you will find only Atlas and 3rd Rail are scale. Lionel F3s ride a bit high and F7s ride real high. MTHs have the too short trucks in the wrong location. Then there is a coupler issue in the next zip code. 

Where do you draw the line?

 

Pete

It would so much easier if you could list the stock numbers. If they are the highly detailed F units, those are the Lionel "scale" models. PW units are not highly detailed and easily distinguished from the rest, even if they are PW Classics. The scale units are much shorter in length than PW units.

Scale on top, PW below.

 

 

Pete

       
       


Thats not even what the original post is concerned with. All he wants to know is which Lionel F3s are the ones they consider their scale F units. Its not a debate between who is scale and who isnt.

If thats the case then none of Lionel's are scale.

 

Pete

Did you even read the original question? We're trying to answer his question, not start a stupid meaningless debate about scale or not scale.

The first scale units were the Santa Fe and NYC in 2002.

"Scale" is an illusive term when it comes to industry or enthusiast definition of the term.

 

If LOS's "scale" ATST F-3's is the standard, just compare its specs to the units in which you are interested.

 

The PW F-3A units have elements of "scale" features, but is significantly shorter than 1:48 would be.  The B units are a "scale" joke by comparison--no third porthole, vents identical to the A units which the B did not have.

 

Edit:  My earlier comment that Lionel's postwar F3A units were significantly shorter than scale length was my error; Norton's photo above shows they are virtually identical in length.

Another not mentioned is UP from 2005.

I have six sets of Lionel's scale F3's and I will put them up to any model for scale detailing and great running ability.

 

AtlasO's F units are very nice but no better detailed IMO. I have a few sets of them also but prefer my lionel Units. 

 

Lets get back to the original question.

You are correct, I stand corrected.

In Lionel's catalogs they have 2 types of F units, the new tooled scale version and the Post War type.

That is Lionel's description of their products, not mine. NEPA is just trying to distinguish between the 2....thats all, nothing more, nothing less.

Thats why I suggested he simply look at the pilots in the first response. All of what you refer to as scale engines have the freight pilot regardless if the term Scale is used in Lionel's description which it is not in the pre Legacy versions.

 

Freight Pilot on the left.

 

 

Pete

NEPA - When looking for the F3's that Lionel designated as scale, you want the Standard O versions.  That will include TMCC and Legacy.  

 

Using Lionel's Advanced Search Options

 

Lionel's search engine leaves something to be desired but you can start by doing the following.  (Sometimes it makes a difference if you use F3 or F-3, etc.)

 

Keyword: F3

In Category use: Diesel-TMCC/Legacy

IN Gauge use: Standard O Scale 

 

You should also do the same search with: Diesel-Conventional  (Some Scale F3's were conventional.)

 

Then do another search of just this:

 

Standard O Scale and the Rail Line you are looking for.

 

I should have added that no matter what you use sometimes not all that has been made comes up.

Through these discussions I am learning other factors not even previously considered. For example, I wasn't even thinking freight or passenger pilot. Getting back to the question it might be safe to say that if the F3 body was made from the new tooling introduced in 2002 or 2003 the resulting shell is "more scale-like"? Adding to this more scale-like body are the details one would associate with the generally more expensive scale models, like add-on details which are closer to scale size and appearance?  I am not looking at the traditional post-war era or newer conventional classic F-3 bodies......I own these, love them ....they are the mainstay of my collection. I am looking for those elements which "raise the bar in fidelity"and more closely resemble the prototype. I am not looking for brass, or another manufacturer.... I am looking to which Lionel F3 units are more scale like.....currently I favor the B&O, EL, WP, and possibly another.....no reason.....I just like them. Great discussions crew.....everyone is learning something here.....especially me    

Just a point of info - using "freight" and "passenger" to describe EMD's optional E/F unit pilots can be very misleading.  The railroads ordered their E an F units with pilots based on the roads' preferences.  All but 3 of the Pennsy's freight service F units were delivered with straight "passenger" pilots.  The Santa Fe passenger service F3's and F7's were equipped with notched "freight" pilots.  P&D Hobbies sells  replacement EMD pilots in both straight and notched styles.

 

Ed Rappe 

These are my take-aways to help differentiate a more scale-like Lionel F3:

* detailed pilot

* pivoting diaphragms

* finer scaled grab irons

* detailed horns and additional roof details

* larger detailed windshields with add-on trim/wiper blades

* speedometer cable

* opening doors (select early releases)

* builders plates

* higher priced (lol)

My reason for wanting F units with more detail is to basically complement the level of detail offered in the newer releases like the ES44's, SD70's, VisionLine units  etc. My error was in forgetting the inconsistencies in the Lionel product descriptions. My thanks to all.

NEPA, most, if not all, detail parts can be found at P&D Hobby.  I mention this because if there is a Lionel F3 that you particularly like but it lacks the details you want, the parts can be added and the model or add-on parts painted if necessary.

Good idea Pingman, even if just to add additional details to an already nicely detailed model.

Would/could you be more specific about these pilots, please? I looked on the P&D hobby site and could not find them. Is there a part number, or a search function or something?

Thanks

I purchased plastic passenger pilot, P&D #PDP5140 for my NYC F3 A units; but they also sell a "ATSF" version, #PDP5781 is brass and #PDP5132 is plastic.  I've hear to get the plastic for the Lionel F units as you can form them to match the nose arc.

 

They are all found on this page:

 

http://pdhobbyshop.com/show_pr...mp%3BD&start=101

 

Here's CandO's great pilot conversion on his WBB E unit:

 

 

More pictures here:

 

http://s574.photobucket.com/al...0E7%20fixed%20pilot/

 

Hope this helps...

 

Thanks,

Mario

 

NEPA, P&D has the products indicated above--those without an indication are due to my lack of familiarity with what P&D has to offer.  I'm not familiar with the F's you are considering so I don't know their details.  I've used, in addition to the above, porthole windows on A and B units, fan shrouds, number boards, and others.  Visit P&D's website and you won't have any difficulty adding a lot to a LIONEL F unit.

Laidoffsick,

I have PW Lionel 'O' Gauge Sante Fe 2343 'A' Powered and 'A' Dummy, F3/7 units, which were describe as being 'Near Scale' and I know there are plenty of missing attached details, amongst other missing detailing and not having prototypical fixed pilots.

Though, I don't own the latest Lionel F3/7 units, I thought being that these latest units are 1:48 Scale Size that they would be longer, than the PW units.

Thank you for mentioning this fact.

Ralph

LOS said it correctly, you can't go wrong with engine # 16-19.

 

 

Thank you. I ordered a pair of the plastic Santa Fe ones for an experiment.

The postwar units are almost scale size. The body only needs to be about 1/8" taller to make them scale size.

Here is three of the earlier scale F3's, some of the best IMO.

They're beauties, David1.

Hey David 1, I sure like that UP F3 Set!!!! It's a Wow...Happy Railroading!

 

Add me to the crowd!  Beautiful!

The newer tooling from 2002-2003 is the scale tooling. The traditional Lionel F3s use the tooling  (or revised tooling) from 1947. Unfortunately Lionel hasn't been consistent with their numbering between the traditional and scale units. Currently they both run in the 38000 series.

 

The easiest visual hint is that  the traditional units are not as tall as the scale units. The windshields are therefore more narrow than the scale units. Also, the scale units use can motors and traction tires, vs Pullmor motors and magne-traction on the traditional units.

 

The scale units are every bit as nice as the Atlas F3s that have come out. I have switched to 2 rail and I had my B&O units converted to 2 rail.  

 

The other F3s on this page look great too. 

There is a difference in size between the new "scale" Lionel Legacy F3's and say Lionel's Neil Young Signature Series F3's.

I am looking at both of mine right now and my Legacy Scale WP F3 is slightly larger, but you can notice it visually most definately.

I will post some pictures for you later today.