Is it just me or lately every new product Lionel video I have seen in the past few weeks the smoke is nearly if not at MTH levels? @Dave Olson did you guys switch something up? Very impressive from the recent videos I have seen.
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I was suitably impressed with my recently acquired Legacy Mogul, the smoke output certainly rivals MTH smoke!
Some of the smoke in this thread's videos are impressive! I saw another where the whistle smoke was spectacular!
I saw that whistle smoke, almost too much of a good thing! 
Well whatever it is, Lionel seems to have upped its game on smoke production.
I noticed one of Lionel's very recent steamers seemed to smoke very similar to the way MTH units have traditionally smoked, with very distinct and defined chuffs. I read somewhere this was because of a special design MTH developed and patented. I wonder if MTH closing down has opened the door for Lionel and others to use some of this technology? Not a bad thing if so!
My Super-Chuffer licenses the design from MTH to use a uP and dynamic braking on the motor to defined chuffs.
@Catonsville Central Railway posted:I noticed one of Lionel's very recent steamers seemed to smoke very similar to the way MTH units have traditionally smoked, with very distinct and defined chuffs. I read somewhere this was because of a special design MTH developed and patented. I wonder if MTH closing down has opened the door for Lionel and others to use some of this technology? Not a bad thing if so!
Nothing to do with that.
We've simply made improvements. If all our hard work now makes people complain that they smoke too much, then I know I've done my job.
@Dave Olson posted:Nothing to do with that.
We've simply made improvements. If all our hard work now makes people complain that they smoke too much, then I know I've done my job.
Well you have definitely made some good improvements! Thanks for the hard work it's paying off from what I have seen!
@Catonsville Central Railway posted:I noticed one of Lionel's very recent steamers seemed to smoke very similar to the way MTH units have traditionally smoked, with very distinct and defined chuffs. I read somewhere this was because of a special design MTH developed and patented. I wonder if MTH closing down has opened the door for Lionel and others to use some of this technology? Not a bad thing if so!
GRJ is more familiar with MTH's technique for defined chuffs. I have read they insert a negative voltage at the end of the cycle to stop the fan motor quickly. Not sure if this is the case but in any event there are other ways to effect this that Lionel may be using or anyone for that matter to achieve similar results.
Pete
@Dave Olson posted:Nothing to do with that.
We've simply made improvements. If all our hard work now makes people complain that they smoke too much, then I know I've done my job.
Sorry to high jack this thread. Hey Dave, any reason why you don't respond to my emails anymore?
I now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.
Agree the smoke units a far better with smoke volume, but the dual units also like to spit fluid out which is a real pain.
@Norton posted:GRJ is more familiar with MTH's technique for defined chuffs. I have read they insert a negative voltage at the end of the cycle to stop the fan motor quickly. Not sure if this is the case but in any event there are other ways to effect this that Lionel may be using or anyone for that matter to achieve similar results.
I believe that MTH actually does do a shot of reverse voltage to stop the fan motor. However, in my Super-Chuffer, I've found that just shorting the motor with a FET stops it on a dime and gets the job done. Not sure what Lionel does, but the smoke looks good, I'm sure of that. 
Similarly I started using a DPDT relay to short the motor.
Pete
Thinking back, I remember that when Lionel developed the Legacy AC-9, it was announced (on a thread here I believe) that they had changed the code on the smoke units to increase output and on that model it is indeed at MTH levels - at both the stack and whistle steam outputs. As ever there was speculation whether this might lead to maintenance issues in the future but to date, although with comparatively limited running time, my later model Legacy steamers have consistently churned out copious amounts of smoke. This includes both the AC-9 and VL Niagara.
With earlier Legacy models there's a lot of fine tuning needed - EFX, smoke fluid level, consistency of power supply etc. - to get near comparable output, and even then it falls short.
My original Legacy 844 always smoke great with zero mods. I've heard others say the same. Wondered what that secret was. I never had to open it yet.
@MartyE posted:My original Legacy 844 always smoke great with zero mods. I've heard others say the same. Wondered what that secret was. I never had to open it yet.
The 6ohm resistor, that over time, takes out the regulator. You should see the smoke right before the regulator goes
Actually it was the 6 ohm resistor that was killing the regulators, Lionel changed them to 8 ohm resistors. I believe there was a service bulletin to change them if you were servicing a locomotive with a 6 ohm resistor.
In any case, the smoke regulator module is a fairly high failure item, and it was worse with the TMCC models.
@RickO posted:The 6ohm resistor, that over time, takes out the regulator. You should see the smoke right before the regulator goes
Well the unit is over 10 years old and still working like a charm. If it hadn't killed the regulator yet... I'm sure now I said that next time out it will go poof.
I have never understood why the power device (type??) in the AC regulators has no heat sink or screwed to chassis ground, rather its wrapped in shrink wrap.
For someone who is comfortable with taking their engine apart, one way to increase smoke output on units that don't have thermistor temperature sensors (non RCMC engines) is use a resistor with a lower wattage, same resistance. The resistor is the consumable item rather than the regulator or whatever is driving it. Worse case you are changing out resistors rather than replacing expensive boards.
Pete
Pete, you will notice that the early Legacy (with modular boards) also used the voltage regulator. They actually exposed the triac and bolted it to the chassis with an insulator. Obviously, the TMCC ones were not as robust as they could have been with no heatsink.
I often speculated on sticking a larger triac into the TMCC ones, similar to how ERR created the HC Mini Commander. Same board, just a larger triac.
@MartyE posted:My original Legacy 844 always smoke great with zero mods. I've heard others say the same. Wondered what that secret was. I never had to open it yet.
You've been lucky. It is the greatest smoker that ever was from Lionel - specializing in plumes and smoke rings - but I blew the AC regulator in mine after relatively little use; fortunately I had got a spare after I found out what the issue is.
Lionel used this particular smoke unit in a few engines from about the same time and all had the same issue. The unit as a whole ceased to be available as a replacement some years ago but the problem was the 6 Ohm heater and its effect on the regulator - or that's how I understand it in a non-technical way.
The reason it got such good smoke is it was working the smoke regulator to death with the 6 ohm resistor.
Well when I get around to it I'll swap out the 6 ohm resistor.
Pete; have a Lionel 38055 ATSF northern where I swapped the 6 ohm element to an 8 ohm and the wicking; the smoke output is anemic at best but the regulator is good; what wattage do the Lionel stock elements rate at? Have no qualms going to a lower wattage 8 ohm element (expendable) but am ignorant as to what to order; thanks for the help; Falcon70
@MartyE posted:Well when I get around to it I'll swap out the 6 ohm resistor.
If the regulator fails shorted (as many do), you will have a brief treat, smoke like you've never seen before until it burns up the smoke unit! I watched one of those at a club run, it was spectacular! It went into the tunnel with normal smoke and somewhere inside the regulator obviously crapped out. It came out enveloped in smoke with smoke pouring out like I had never seen before for any locomotive! I had to replace the smoke unit PCB and the regulator, and I think it probably still smells like burnt fiberglass.
Did they use the same 6 ohm resistor on the first Legacy E6s ( 6-11117)? I have one and the smoke was never that great. I do remember 1 day it got real good and then subsided. Still works but not as good as the one time. Never did seem to make a difference from L,M, and H.
The smoke regulators are notorious for not doing anything with the smoke volume changes. I've actually tested a bunch of samples from Lionel on a test bench and seen no change in voltage or heat with the three levels. I feel lucky that they see the smoke on/off commands!
Hmmm. Is there any alternative to at least make it a L,M,H or am I stuck with the regulator?
No alternative, the smoke regulator is how they did the later TMCC and early modular board Legacy.
Part list for Legacy E6s ( 6-11117)
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Well, I'd swap that 6 ohm resistor for an 8 ohm one right away unless you like swapping AC regulators regularly. 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I'd swap that 6 ohm resistor for an 8 ohm one right away unless you like swapping AC regulators regularly.
That would be the first thing I do!
I agree the new Legacy engines are producing tons of steam. My 4-6-6T puts on quite a show. Unfortunately the fan for the whistle steam died on Saturday. Lionel issued an RA and it is heading back soon. Great product and great customer service.
-Ryan
I love the smoke units (and whistle steam, etc.) but I feel nervous using them because I had an engine once (early 0-6-0T docksider, before Lionchief) where the smoke unit totally died. The repair place I took it to said it was probably running with insufficient smoke fluid, which they think caused the problem. But I've also heard that you can kill the unit by running it with too much smoke fluid.
For those of us who are far below average in the mechanical/taking-things-apart department, does anybody have tips for how you can optimize smoke output without using a screwdriver to take the engine apart? Is it a bigger mistake to add too much fluid or too little? If the engine hasn't been used in six months or a year, do you top it up again with 20 drops or do you run it a bit first?
I'm sure the answer varies a bit from engine to engine so let's take a Lionmaster Challenger as the example (6-82694).
I had the same issue with the 0-6-0. Course that time I think it was my fault. As far as best practices i can’t speak for everyone but I typically run at a club so by the end I try to keep the smoke low so during transport a bunch of smoke fluid doesn’t just leak everywhere. With that I typically approach a engine I want to run as if it’s dry so typically add about 20 drops. It’s more likely you’ll run it dry than overfill it but overfilling is still a risk. As many have mentioned on other threads 20 drops is not nearly enough to prime a true dry unit. I rarely actually count out 20 drops just fill the vial and give it a good squirt down the funnel. Another I’ll do and I don’t know if it makes much difference but one time Mike Ragon recommend to never fill the unit while the element was still on and hot so I’ll turn the smoke off and let it run for another 5-15 minutes and then refill it. Then after that might even let it soak before reenergizing the element.
hope this helps and again it’s just what I do
@zhubl posted:Mike Ragon recommend to never fill the unit while the element was still on and hot so I’ll turn the smoke off and let it run for another 5-15 minutes and then refill it. Then after that might even let it soak before reenergizing the element.
I think minutes are probably overkill in waiting for the resistor to cool. Within a minute or two the smoke unit is cooled to room temperature. I turn off the smoke to add fluid, but I don't wait that long to add fluid.
To further muddy the waters, I just received my new Legacy Big Boy , smokes like crazy. I have the reputation on the forum for destroying Lionel smoke units by either starving them or over filling them. With the help of the forum, I learned how to rebuild one of my smoke units; as long as Lionel has parts, I am happy.
Regarding Dave's improvements to smoke units, that is clearly obvious on the new Legacy Big Boy; I have noticed that on the BB, from the ammeter on my ZWL, that at ramp up, amperage goes to 4.25, then eventually drops to 3 amps and holds there. On my older Legacy engines, it does nearly the same, but then drops to 1.5 and holds there. Don't know if there are any changes to the regulator or ohmage of the resistor.
My own take on dosage: I have been experimenting with 1 drop per minute of smoke time; refill after 10 minutes; have not looked at a wick to see if that is OK. For the new Legacy Big Boy that smokes like crazy, I am upping the dosage to 2 drops per minute of run time.
One can also look at laidoffsicks videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRcpFRtA6IY and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1asUWbJtfok
