Lionel Southern Pacific Daylight ALCO PA lettering color?

quote:

Originally posted by Lima:
Looked at one at a store this week and it seems the lettering and striping are white. Is this correct? In color pictures it appears to be a aluminum/gray/silver color. If white is accurate was it ever silver?, and when did it change?
Thanks

1) NO, white is NOT accurate!

2) SP always used "lettering gray", which darned neer LOOKS silver, but it really isn't (pretty hard to describe).

If you can find a set of the last run of Champ Decals for Southern Pacific Daylight steam or diesel locomotives, in either HO or O scale, those are an EXCELLENT reference. Also, match them against the Golden Gate Depot Daylight train set, released last year.

quote:

1) NO, white is NOT accurate!

2) SP always used "lettering gray", which darned neer LOOKS silver, but it really isn't (pretty hard to describe).

That's interesting. MTH, Lionel, and 3rd Rail(at one time years ago) had the same problem with ATSF steam engine lettering which should be Aluminum. They were using white lettering because photos didn't capture the Aluminum color very well.

I looked around at some Southern Pacific PA photos and the "lettering gray" looked white. Example

If you look at the recent Key SP Alco PA, you can see it had the correct paint scheme. Key SP Alco PA

It would make life so much easier if Lionel and MTH would spend a little more time on their homework and then keep a file for reference.

I have this bad feeling that the new Lionel Legacy Santa Fe 3751 class engines are going to have white lettering. I will be happy to be wrong about that. I'm going by the Lionel info, the tender lettering looks white, but may not be.
Lionel Info

I just looked at a whole bunch of prototype color photos. It sure looks white to me, at least on the ALCo PA-PB units.

See:

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=275331

and

http://www.railpictures.net/viewphoto.php?id=145102

for example.

Either that is white, or my eyesight is worse than I thought.

Back in the old days, paint would chauk. Siver or aluminum paint would turn white in a year or two.

quote:

It sure looks white to me, at least on the ALCo PA-PB units.

Believe me it is NOT white, especially when you get up close. No different than the "lettering gray" on the red, orange, and black painted Daylight steam locomotives.

The white is not as annoying as the black outline of the lettering (and numbering). Lionel just feels some insatiable desire that it add some amount of artistic license to pretty much all of it's stuff. I guess they need to keep the guy who comes up with all the fantasy carp happy.

This is not as annoying to me as almost double too wide red/yellow/black stripe along the bottom of all their warbonnets in the past 6-7 years.

At least I might be able to remove the lettering without damaging the paint on the PAs.

Richard

You do know that the Daylight steam locomotives had black outline on the big letters and numbers? As did the Daylight passenger car fleet?

If the stark white stripes bother you, try one of those silver pens you can buy at a stationery store - or put silver decal stripes on. The decal stripes would be easy, and if you make a mistake, you just take it off and start over. The stationery store pen will wipe off if you catch a mistake quickly.

SP Steam sometimes used white lettering. There is anecdotal evidence that one oil tender had gold lettering (probably while following #60000 up the hill).

Lionel has continually made the same mistake on CN diesels, the lettering, numbers and diagonal stripe are grey on the prototype modern CN diesels; DASH-9, SD-70, ES44DC, etc. Lionel has painted them white. I brought this to the attention of MTH a few years ago and they changed it to the proper CN grey. I gave up trying to convince Lionel.

Mike

quote:

Originally posted by MohawkMike:
Lionel has continually made the same mistake on CN diesels, the lettering, numbers and diagonal stripe are grey on the prototype modern CN diesels; DASH-9, SD-70, ES44DC, etc. Lionel has painted them white. I brought this to the attention of MTH a few years ago and they changed it to the proper CN grey. I gave up trying to convince Lionel.

Mike

Not a mistake, done on purpose (although the purpose may allude you). I told them about the F unit warbonnets when the new tooling ones first ones came out and they said it was done purposely to match the older tooling F's.

Richard

quote:

Originally posted by Lima:

quote:

Originally posted by rdunniii:

quote:

Originally posted by MohawkMike:
Lionel has continually made the same mistake on CN diesels, the lettering, numbers and diagonal stripe are grey on the prototype modern CN diesels; DASH-9, SD-70, ES44DC, etc. Lionel has painted them white. I brought this to the attention of MTH a few years ago and they changed it to the proper CN grey. I gave up trying to convince Lionel.

Mike

Not a mistake, done on purpose (although the purpose may allude you). I told them about the F unit warbonnets when the new tooling ones first ones came out and they said it was done purposely to match the older tooling F's.

Richard

So they tooled up a brand new scale F-3 and knowingly painted it incorrectly to match their 1940's toy?

In so many words. You have to remember who Lionel markets to and it is not model railroaders.

This all makes sense to me. If you want an absolutely correct PA, I believe Key has one for you. It is set up for two rail, so your center rail can be for appearance only.

quote:

Originally posted by bob2:
This all makes sense to me. If you want an absolutely correct PA, I believe Key has one for you. It is set up for two rail, so your center rail can be for appearance only.

Even the 2009 run Key PA's are not without errors; like the 5' gauge track..

I suppose a guy could simulate the 3rd rail.. that would be cool. A new end to the ever expanding O Gage market.. (On30, On3, O Gage, O gauge, 17/64ths, Zero Gauge, 2 rail, 3 rail, 3 rail scale, 3 rail toy, tinplate, outside 3rd rail, did miss anyone?!) Now enter---- 2 rail P-48 with the simulated tubular middle rail and lobster claws on the front of the train to make your scale model look like a toy!

Oh no- now my eyes have gone crooked...

Oh bumm.. I forgot O-27 !

quote:

Even the 2009 run Key PA's are not without errors; like the 5' gauge track..

Yaah - that's why all my PAs are 17/64 scale. And painted here. And two of them are parked on 3-rail Gargraves in the garage - center rail for appearance only, since all my 700 stuff has since been insulated.

Yes, SP lettering is hard to discribe!

Later model MTH Premier, Gauge 1, and HO Daylight Painted locomtives all were lettered with SP Lettering Gray.

BBBob

Of the Southern Pacific passenger car sets out there in production, are there sets which are more prototypical than others?  I have the following, but I do not think these are to scale.

6-9589	1	Southern Pacific Daylight   Aluminum Baggage Car
6-9590	1	Southern Pacific Daylight   Aluminum Combination Car
6-9591	1	Southern Pacific Daylight   Aluminum "Pullman" Passenger Car
6-9592	1	Southern Pacific Daylight   Aluminum "Chair" Passenger Car
6-9593	1	Southern Pacific Daylight   Aluminum Observation Car
6-19019	1	Southern Pacific Madison   Baggage Car 9019
6-19023	1	Southern Pacific Madison   Passenger Coach 9023
6-19024	1	Southern Pacific Madison   Passenger Coach 9024
6-19025	1	Southern Pacific Madison   Passenger Coach 9025
6-19026	1	Southern Pacific Madison   Observation Car 9026

Those appear to be all Lionel item numbers. I don't think that Lionel has ever produced any scale, correct, passenger cars for Southern Pacific.

As of right now, I do not believe anybody has reproduced the Daylight cars in O Scale with absolutely correct corrugations and absolutely correct trucks.  Even the Speer extrusions have a slight flaw.

 

Just in case the angst on lettering color still exists, the font is apparently Clarendon, and a good decal guy with an Alps printer could probably make a grey overlay that would exactly match what you are trying to hide.