Lionel T1 (5514) Odyssey speed problems: Only fast or stop

Well, the sensor board may have been damaged, or possibly the magnet failure was due to an Odyssey board failure that spun the motor at full speed and broke the ring. 

The Cruise Commander M for Odyssey is a perfect fit for this application, that's probably how I'd go.

John,

When you say "Odyssey board", I assume you mean the motor driver board that would be replace by the CCM? Can you think of any way to test the sensor board to see if a signal is being sent?  I have the feeling that it is a job for an oscilloscope rather than a simple Fluke multi.

Bobby

I test them with another motor with the sensor, I just plug in my "test" motor and see if it works.  You could look at the outputs with a 'scope, never bothered.

I have neither the 'scope or extra motor.  At this point, I will probably go with the Cruise Commander M.  I just dropped a note to them to try and figure out which version is best for me and to clear up how to wire it correctly as the J4 board in the T1 is wired differently than their example of the Odyssey SD-80 in the manual. 

Sounds reasonable, Ken should be able to point you in the right direction.  There really isn't much to change.  I typically use an extraction tool and remove the pins from the Molex connector instead of cutting and splicing, it makes for a neater installation.

Update.  Still not working with Cruise M installed.

I installed the Cruise M.  and still have the same problem.  Stop or go fast.  I wrote to ERR but have yet hear back.  Below is a copy of my note:

Ken,

I installed the CCM this afternoon and I cannot get it to work.  A bit of history.  I purchased a Lionmaster T1 and on putting it on rails found that it only had stop and go (very fast) in either direction.  I found a broken Odyssey magnet ring and replaced it with one I got from Lionel.  After installing, I had the same problem, stop or go very fast.  Gunnerjohn at the O Gauge forum recommended installing one of your boards thinking that the Lionel board may have gone bad and caused the excessive speed that made the ring fly apart.  At that point I emailed you for the first time.  I have read your manual carefully and followed your written instructions.  The motor is controlled via the CAB-1 but I only get stop or go very fast in either direction.  The engine will run fine in conventional mode.  Here is what I have tried:

• Swapped out the R2LC with another new one (both 08).  Same result.
• Reprogrammed the engine with both code “74” (in the T1 manual) and with code “4” (recommendation in your manual).  Neither made a difference.
• Turned Odyssey on and off using your code in the manual.

I used the Odyssey diesel example for the bulk of my installation.  The differences are:

• My J4 had only one connection at pin 10.  A black wire that went to the metal shell of the engine.  That was cut and insulated.  There were no other wires connected.
• I ran a jumper from the R2LC connector pin to pin 1 on J4.  I soldered the wire in based on the photograph in the manual for the SD-60.  Your mention using pin 24 but there is no numbering on any of the boards and I am unfamiliar with any standard nomenclature.  I have double and triple checked my installation against your photo and can verify that they are the same pin.  My board is different from your example in that the pins run vertically from the mobo and the R2LC pushes down onto them and lays horizontal.
• My engine has no Odyssey on-off switch.  In the CCM package was a 5 pin connector with two black wires.  I assumed this was for my non-existent switch.  I tried the engine both without this connector and with the connector and the two black wires connected (to mimic an ‘on’ switch?), but it had on effect.  Same stop or go fast.
• I removed the motor sensor cable completely.

Some little stuff that may or not be important.  I used an anti-static mat to work on.  The original screws holding the motor board in place had plastic sleeves to insulate the screws.  These did not fit on your boards holes so I did no used them.  It appeared that your board was well insulated anyway.  I did not find the 10 pin plug you mentioned in your last email.

I would appreciate any input you can give me at this point.  Thanks.

I can't wrap my head around this.  It has to be either the motor board or the R2LC, correct?  Am I missing something?  Perhaps my engine is haunted.  Anyone do Pennsy exorcisms?

Bobby

I know your woes... I through a magnet on my SD-40 and the magnet parts flew out across the R2 board and damaged it. Can you swap the R2 board out from another locomotive?

Tried.  Same result.

B.

Other than motion issues do you have control of the other engine functions.  Whistle/bell, couplers, lights with remote?

Making sure the antenna is connected and not grounded.  G

I'd like to see a picture of where you ran the wire for the serial data.  If you ran it to any other pin but pin 24, you'd be seeing exactly the symptoms you describe.  You MUST have that pin connected to the serial data for the CC-M to be configured properly.

Pin 1 of the R2LC has a square pad.  Pin 24 is at the opposite end of the connector on the opposite row from pin 1.

Checked and double checked and triple checked.  Unless I'm dyslexic, the photo should show connection to the correct pin.

Bobby

If you've used code 04 with both of the R2LC boards to program it, and it has the same symptoms, I'd have to think the CC-M is bad.  You are soldered to the right pin on the R2LC socket.

Picture of what you have plugged into the CC-M 10 pin.  Some times a wire used for ground has to be removed before swapping in the CCM.  Chassis ground onto the CCM will kill it, and it will do what you are seeing.   G

Nothing goes to the 10 pin on J4.  That wire was cut and insulated.

Some other thoughts/attempts:

• Tried a different CAB controller.  No difference.
• Isolated CCM board from engine by removal. (Thinking a ground short might have developed).  No difference.
• Inspected old board very carefully under magnification looking for damage.  A long shot, but none found.
• Pulled mobo and checked for damage.  None found.
• Ran while mobo was off chassis.  No difference.

While it is possible that the new CCM is bad, I can't help but feel that there is something underlying this that I am missing.  Because the behavior is identical both with the old Lionel motor board and the new CCM makes me believe this.  It would appear that in both cases, the information to control the motor speed was not getting through.  Unfortunately, I have no way to check this out.  The other possibility is that the info was getting through but processed incorrectly. 

There is a slim chance that the connector to J1 may be suspect.  The wires in the T1 are not the same colors as the wires that ERR uses in there example manual.  However, seeing that the board does get powered up from that connector and that the direction can be changed with the CAB controller, I'm doubtful that is the culprit.

Bobby

The pin 24 serial signal MUST go to the Cruise Commander M 10 pin socket J4, pin #1.  That's the whole point of soldering that lead onto pin 24 of the R2LC!  Where do you have pin-24 of the R2LC going?

Yes, that is where it goes; pin 1 on J4.  I've doublechecked it's location and verified that there is a connection (i.e zero resistance in the wire).

Bobby

Well, you've sure confused me!  You just said in the previous message...

Nothing goes to the 10 pin on J4.  That wire was cut and insulated.

Obviously, that statement wasn't really correct if you have Pin 1 connected!

There was a ground wire that went to Pin 10 in J4.  That was cut and now there is no connection to that pin.  I connected the wire soldered to Pin 24 of the R2LC to Pin 1 on J4.  So now there is only one pin connected on J4 just as before.  Only now instead of it being pin 10, it is pin 1.

Bobby

Time to call Ken at ERR and get a replacement.

I sent an email this AM but have not heard back.

Bobby

That's why I said call.

If you originally had it on 10, or another wire on 10 when you powered up, that could have killed the CCM.  G

I'm still very confused.  The 10-pin connector comes with the Cruise Commander M, and it has wires in pins #1 and #2.  Did you put a wire into pin #10 and ground it?  Where did that wire come from?

At this point, I'd take the CC-M out and do a bench test on it, time to start narrowing down the suspects.

I did not receive a 10 pin connector with 2 wires.  I received a 5 pin connector with 2 black wires.  Since this was an exact fit for the 5 pin connector on the CCM board, I assumed it was for the Odyssey "on-off" switch.  I describe this in my letter to Ken at ERR posted earlier.  At no point did I ground anything!  The pin 10 wire was cut in the beginning and shrink wrap applied so it would not be a problem.

The board is working: in another engine.  I moved it and the R2LC from the T1 into a K-line GP-38 and ran a jumper wire from pin 24 on the R2LC to the CCM board.  Full control was enabled using the CAB.  I did no programming.  At this point, I can safely say that the R2LC and the CCM board both work.

Either the serial data is not getting sent to the CCM board when installed in the T1, or the data is corrupt.  These are the only two scenarios that I can come up with.  I have tried isolating both the mobo and the CCM board to see if it was a ground issue, but neither of these helped.  Could it be possible that for some reason the motherboard is involved?  I am going to take a closer look today to see where the trace for pin 24 goes.

Bobby

I'm assuming that pin 24 of the R2LC also goes to the wireless tether for the tender sound link, that's it.

After receiving an email from ERR, I gave them a call and spoke with Ken.  In our discussion, he thought the problem may lie with the board model I am using.  When I first started this project I shot ERR an email and explained what I wanted to do.  Their recommendation was to use the Cruise M for Odyssey.  Now, they are telling me to use the Cruise M for steam.  Apparently the wireless tether does something to the serial data signal and the steam board has a slightly different output (?) that should take care of the problem.  In our discussion, Ken explained that the CCM boards were all designed before Lionel came out with Odyssey in steam engines with wireless tenders.  I am hoping that this will be the fix even though my T1 "falls into a grey area".  In any event, I ordered the CCM for steam and will try it.

To further blow your minds, I did another check of the motherboard.  It's a 691-PCB1-10F.  In tracing the serial data trace, I found that it went to two places; J3 (on the right side of the attached photo) and JP1 (the black jumper plug in the upper left).  J3 wires go to the wireless tender.  But JP1 is a mystery.  In the photo you see the jumper in the "on" position.  The engine came to me in the "off" position.  I tried both positions but neither made a difference.  I found no references on the interwebs, although Lionel shows the part available under "MOTHERBOARD/R2LC/CONSOLIDATION".  Does anyone know what JP1 does?

Bobby

The wireless tether is an issue, the newer CC-M steam boards have additional drive to properly handle the wireless tether.  I suspect Ken has you pointed in the correct direction.

I remember a discussion about the purpose of that jumper, but it escapes me now what it's stated purpose was.  I'm thinking something like conventional/command with command upgradeable locomotives.  Maybe someone that actually knows will read this.

It's working!

But I still have questions.

I received the ERR board for steam engines yesterday and installed it.  On the first power up, the runaway problem was still there.  It would at times lapse into another baffling mode of running for a few seconds, then shutting down (lights out, but no short), run for a few seconds, etc.  I was stumped.  Now during this entire testing phase with trying to repair the Odyssey and then replace the motor boards; I was powering up the locomotive only.  Due to it's size, I could not fit both the engine and tender in my homemade cradle.  I did not think the tender was important; my rationale being that it only was good for sound.  In addition, I could test my CAB's function by turning the engine's headlight on and off with AUX2.
After sitting at the bench and staring at the beast for a while, the tender kept coming up in my mind.  So I set up a test rail and rejoined them.  At first I would get only the start up sound but no horn or bell.  The engine would do it start and stop routine and I'd keep pulling it back and retrying.  On about the third try, I turned the CAB throttle and the engine slowly pulled away.  On this try I also got my first 'chug' and now the horn and bell were working.  After a few more test runs with the tender attached, I tried to run the engine without it.  It ran fine.  I carefully dressed the new wiring and replaced the shell.  I took it up to the big layout and she ran beautifully.  She pulled 8 full scale heavyweights with only the slightest slowing on a big 0-54 curve.
So, what happened?  The only thing I can come up with is that the sound board has something to do with the output of the serial data.  (I'm assuming that there is only a sound board in the tender.)  It makes no sense to me.  Love to hear thoughts from others on what I did (or did not do).

Bobby

Sound's like being in the cradle, upside down, was applying pressure on the harness or boards and causing your issue.  Where as up right everything connected correctly and making good conductivity??   The tender via an IR connection should not have had any effect on the engine motor functions.  G

Good assumption, but I don't think so, most testing was wheels down in the cradle.  In addition, I tested with the motor board and motherboard both mounted and unmounted in the chassis.  I also would move wires while testing to see if there was a bad connection.  

Bobby

As George says, the tender can't possibly have any electrical effect on the locomotive operation, it's on the receiving end of a one way conversation!  Had to say what was really going on, but if it works now...