Lionel to Appear on Fox and Friends, Monday, December 16th

The Lionel feature is roughly halfway through the broadcast.  Nice to see these trains and the brand getting some public exposure.  The layout was nice, except for the bump in the circular track that was very visible in a couple of shots.  Good choice to feature the Polar Express and Thomas properties.

As a conventional runner, I have no interest in the features that were shown, just glad to see these trains on TV.  I wonder how many people will excitedly investigate this new approach, only to discover that their grandpa's trains, their dad's trains, and the trains they had as a kid are now obsolete in the "new way of doing things".  That would certainly be a dealbreaker for some--myself included, were I in that position.

I guess I don't get the negativity about the LionChief and LionChief Plus approach.  It's not incompatible with conventional control.  With conventional control, if you want to run more than one train, you need independent loops or block control, and probably more than one transformer, if the transformer is a typical Z-1000 or CW-40 or CW-80 from a starter set.  If you buy a LionChief set, you need an independent loop or block system to use that with conventional locos. Absolutely no difference in complexity or principle.  Combining the two is no more complex than typical block control, multi-cab conventional.  And unlike a conventional toy train set loco from Lionel, the LionChief locos will work just fine on a command layout (TMCC/Legacy/DCS).  Seems like a win-win to me.

Just imagine how many people who didn't know about Lionel are now going to go to Amazon, put in "Lionel train" as a search and pick up a LionChief set?  Even if it's only a few hundred, or a thousand, that's a few hundred families that have sets that wouldn't have them otherwise.  That's a few hundred hobby shops that may have potential customers down the road.  That's a few more subscriptions to CTT or OGR.  A few more attendees at local train shows.  Rome wasn't built in a day .

I don't disagree with you Landsteiner, as far as ease of use goes.  However, I was an early adopter of TMCC and what I have found is that as those locomotives now near the 10-15 year mark they get very "buggy" and most if not all of them have required / will require some expensive parts to restore full functionality.  Now, to be fair, my dad's postwar stuff also required overhaul at some point too, but the nature of the overhaul required -- wiring, some E unit clean-up, whistle maintenance -- has generally been less expensive and less frequent. 

None of this is to say that the new MTH and Lionel locomotives equipped with the latest technology aren't terrific -- they are fantastic in terms of how they operate.  But to me this hobby has been as much about tradition as it is about current fun and I am concerned that if I want to pass down my stuff to my boys, as my dad did with me, much of it will be shelf queens absent the expenditure of money on new boards and what-not that far exceeds the value of the trains at that point.

So I think the new stuff Lionel is offering is fine, but I wouldn't exepct those remotes and what-not to be functional in 20 years, that's all.  And that may be fine for some people.

Just running the trains at a slower speed would help.  Trains are not race cars. 

TEX

Steve

My comment wasn't negative, or about building a blocked layout; it's about backwards compatibility that the (uninformed) consumer expects will be there.

There will be folks who buy this set and excitedly rail grandpa's postwar steamer with the expectation they'll be able to run it with the remote.  While those of us who understand the basics might scoff at someone making that assumption, it's certainly a recipe for disappointment for those that haven't been close to the hobby in recent years.

Frankly, I had my finger on the "Buy" button for the LionChief PE set on Amazon, then decided better of it because I don't want to have to make special arrangements on my layout to run it.  I do agree it's a very cool thing, and I hope it will draw in some new blood.

Buying a LionChief for a kid who may or may not grow up with the hobby is one thing, but buying a LionChief as a precursor to expansion is penny-wise and pound-foolish IMHO. I would never buy a LionChief and expect it to last 10-15 years as a daily runner, but that's not the market it's aimed at. While I 'might" let my grandkid run his LionChief on my layout alongside my MTH DCS-controlled trains, I seriously doubt I'd buy a LionChief with the idea of building expansion plans around it.

I also wouldn't build a layout based on LionChief sets where I'd need 5 remotes to run 5 trains unless I had 3-4 kids for whom I was building the layout. While that may be a cheap way to go, it's not for me as a solitary operator. No doubt there is a place for LionChief sets, but we have a duty to offer pros and cons when a question is asked or a comment is made. Personally, I'd buy a LionChief vs MTH simply because of the RF remote, but only for someone who doesn't know if they want to pursue this as a hobby and only because of the lower cost. I don't know of anyone who likes the IR remote system MTH uses in the R-T-R sets, but most of us who have bought MTH sets, did so knowing we'd eventually upgrade to the RF remote/TIU, etc., as we bought more engines.

And I just don't think there's any comparison between the LionChief and MTH RailKing R-T-R engines. From what I've seen MTH has better sounds, more smoke and many more options once the control system is upgraded. Yes, it costs more money, but I've dropped out of several hobbies because I either didn't have or didn't spend the money to get the level MTH offers vs the level LionChief offers. For me it was a Catch-22, I didn't spend the money because I didn't know if I'd like the hobby, but I didn't like the hobby because I started out too cheap.

The LionChief will give a kid hours and hours of enjoyment and it will let 2 or more kids play together quite easily, but it would not do the same for me or my granddaughter. Yes, having to point the remote at the receiver is a pain, but it didn't take her long to figure it out and she had just turned 6 at the time. And I can always connect the receiver to my layout and let her control her train with her remote. I can also take her train to any O-Gauge layout in town and she can run her train with their remote.

The other thing I just thought of is how large of a layout could I build around LionChief sets? I had intended to run up to my LHS to see if they carry LionChief sets, but I haven't been able to get up there yet. I wouldn't mind having one just for the kids to play with during our holiday family get-togethers. If they break it, oh well, wouldn't be the first toy they broke.  

Whatever happened to Bachman's program length appearances on Home Shopping Network? 

"There will be folks who buy this set and excitedly rail grandpa's postwar steamer with the expectation they'll be able to run it with the remote. "

Hopefully at least some of them will actually read the instructions .  I hope it's clear that the remote will only operate the loco in the set, but I haven't seen those instructions yet.  Perhaps someone who has can comment.

That said, if you buy an antique telephone or television and try to connect it to your digital landline or cable box, you're going to be in for a similar surprise, so I'd be puzzled that anyone would expect anything different for 50-60 year old toy trains.

As for repair, no doubt our current stuff is less robust and more expensive to fix, a trade-off for the added features and enhanced performance.  I've had 40 year old washing machines and new ones, and while the older ones are tougher and easier to fix, the new ones actually do a much better job of cleaning clothes, and they do it quietly .  It's called progress and no free lunch.

"The other thing I just thought of is how large of a layout could I build around LionChief sets?"

The range is about 60 feet, and my impression (not from personal experience) is that the LionChief system is considerably less subject to technical "issues" than TMCC, Legacy or DCS.  Less prone to not work, in other words.

As for operating five trains, it will be no easier with DCS or Legacy and one handheld than with LionChief and five remotes.  You only have two hands, and with one remote

or two, you're going  to go nuts trying to control more than two trains unless you have separate loops (no collision possibility) or a really huge layout (as in 25-30 feet long).  That one remote is enough, but the wetware holding the remote has limited capacity for keeping track of trains .  You'll also find that switching among five different trains with a DCS handheld or Legacy Cab-2 is not much easier than having five color coded remotes sitting in front of you. 

In summary, I think you've  overstated the capabilities of command control with DCS/Legacy and overstated the limitations of the LionChief system.  Most people are not going to be running more than 2-3 trains at once and most people are not going to be building monster layouts.  In the next few months, Lionel will begin making LionChief Plus locos that rival MTH RailKing locos in scale details and functional capabilities (sounds, couplers, smoke) but at lower price points, as shown in the  catalog flyers for 2014.

Geez..I had to read the explanation twice, not due to it's lack of  clarity but for the convolutions in this versus that. Sounds like development is going in three directions at once..maybe five. Add in repairs in the future sounds like a perfect storm. 

"Add in repairs in the future sounds like a perfect storm."

Isn't that what manufacturers of horse drawn wagons, bridles and saddles said about the first steam, electric and gasoline powered horseless carriages?

All I know is that variability and complexity tends to be increasing alongside increased designed obsolescence..all in relation to parts availability specifically in this hobby not in the wagon or carriage trades. Oranges and apples. It just struck me that tracing all this stuff ( unless you are an electronics maven) could be ( to say the least) a daunting challenge..in the future unless we just display or junk this stuff. I have nothing personal against all this stuff but it seems sort f self defeating for the hobbyist. Hey I could be wrong..but it seems that much is obvious to me.

Certainly you make a fair point.  But for those of us who are mechanically inclined -- and I count myself among them -- there is no question that too many things today are being built to a price point and with the idea that the item is disposable.  I understand that these sets may not be designed for the long-term train collector -- again a fair point -- but the point about the trains becoming more problematic holds true even more so at the high end of the hobby.

Not to get too far afield.  Trains, and O gauge trains in particular, are a terrific hobby and I am thrilled Lionel got exposure this morning.  Hopefully more people will be exposed to the hobby and undertake the fun of building and creating something yourself, and expanding it over time. 

Nice try, but you'll never convince me that is true.  I have a very modest-size layout and I regularly operate multiple trains at the same time with my DCS remote (including TMCC and Legacy trains).  I do not operate things at "toy train speeds," to be sure, but there's certainly no special skill required to operate several or more trains with a single DCS or Legacy remote. 

But back to the original topic:

I sure hope someone is able to post a YouTube or other link to that segment that appeared on Fox & Friends.  I sure would like to see it.

Don't get me wrong, I think Lionel has done a fantastic job of trying to make the hobby more relevant to a tech obsessed country which model trains had never shared the leading edge with as well as promoting the hobby. I see it as a mixed bag that equates to additional hurdles in the long run. But most folks are buying whats there with the long run being secondary to features while those features can create additional issues as I read in the many posts here...and that choice of high versus low tech well, each has its consequences and advocates.  Hey I thought quadraphonic sound was the wave of the future..and Betamax was far superior to VHS..now they are all antiques in the curio cabinet. 

I wasn't talking about distance from remote to layout. I was talking about power to the track. Since I haven't seen a set yet, I have no idea how powerful the transformer is or how many leads can be attached to the track from it.

And I'm not "stating" or "overstating" anything, I'm just offering my opinions.

I do intend to run 5 trains on my layout; 3 unattended and 2 under my direct control. My layout will be 3 levels, each self-contained yet interconnected. I'll swap which ones are controlled/unattended during an operating session. While I can certainly do that with 5 color-coded remotes, it's a lot easier to do it one-handed with an MTH DCS remote. And with DCS, I'll only need 1 Z4000 transformer and I'll be able to select any engine in my inventory without keeping track of yet more remotes.

And neither one of us knows what "most' people will do. That doesn't man there isn't a wide market for the LionChief, but I submit that most people in "this" audience will still prefer their conventional, TMCC, and DCS equipment. I get your point, but while you accuse me of overstating, I think you're doing a bit of that yourself. No doubt LionChief has it's place, but so do all the others. I'm just not sure why you're so defensive when it comes to any alternative being presented/discussed.

LionChief seems to have only 2 advantages to MTH; RF control and price (3 if you add FasTrack, maybe). I don't know about TMCC because I don't have one. What I do know is that I would not be satisfied with a LionChief, but then I'm not the customer they are after. And if I have to buy a new LionChief Plus engine to be happy, then that's not for me either. I can upgrade to MTH Imperial and Premier and not have to change a thing on my layout to run them side-by-side with my current engine.

And if LionChief Plus is yet another system, I'm not sure what that will mean. I'm already sympathetic to electroliner's concerns about longevity, repair, etc., for these high-tech trains. They do run better and have so many cool options, but that won't mean much if the life-expectancy is much lower and parts are much harder to find.

Fortunately, no one asked a question about what to buy in this thread, so differing opinions don't really mean much. I won't hesitate to recommend a LionChief to someone who simply wants a set for their kid or for around the Christmas tree. However, I won't sit silent when someone asks about the pros/cons of a system for full involvement in the hobby. I won't dismiss the idea of 2-3 LionChief sets for a layout, but I will point out any concerns I may have. I believe information is power, so I believe all opinions should be welcome.

You give a kid a Lion Chief for Christmas & that might make his day. Most layouts in our hobby are probably on the smallish side 5'x9' etc. Not to many parents  are going to build an 10'x20' layout for Christmas morning. As for the electronics lasting forever. You never know that might outlast some of us. If the command systems don’t work and I don’t have my "Crystal Ball" with me right now-- there might a cottage industry of guys who will upgrade you to DCS/TMCC “ad infinitum”.

"I'm just not sure why you're so defensive when it comes to any alternative being presented/discussed."

Those that disagree with us are being defensive, while those that agree with us are being calm and rational . I have used DCS, TMCC and Legacy, and I think you're likely in for some  surprises as to how seamlessly command control (in this case DCS) works and how reliable it is.  And how sensitive these systems are to the layout construction variables. 

A simple, reliable, inexpensive command system like LionChief has a lot to offer, even to someone like me who has been in the hobby for 20+ years and even to someone who uses command control.  You may well find that restricting yourself to DCS will present some interesting operational challenges and limitations. It's not the complete no-brainer you are claiming, based upon modest hands-on experience from your description.  That's my main point, and until experience proves otherwise, I'm going to try to present that point of view even if it seems defensive .

to be sure, but there's certainly no special skill required to operate several or more trains with a single DCS or Legacy remote.

Can't comment about Legacy but I always run at least 6 trains on 3 main lines with MTH DCS with zero issues in switching from loco to loco. Put all the MTH locos into the All Command feature then switch from loco to loco for whatever function that you need to accomplish. Very simple with the MTH All Command feature.

OK folks...enough of the thread hijack. This is not a discussion about TMCC/Legacy/DCS.

Take that discussion to the proper forum and let's get back to the subject at hand - Lionel trains on Fox & Friends today.

I missed the segment. Was it this layout. Bob?

Looks like it.

At one point in the broadcast, there was an extreme close-up of the LionChief Silver Bells 2-4-2 as it rounded a curve.  As it passed over a particular joint (the aforementioned bump), the Fastrack was so unnaturally bent that the rear wheels of the locomotive actually lifted off the track.  It's something that most everyone here would have noticed.

Not negative. Not complaining. Just stating something that happened.

Lionel, MTH all the Model Train companies need good PR like this. Even it its a two minute segment its on national TV that millions of people watch.

No question about it!  All the positive exposure toy trains can get is good for everyone involved--manufacturers, dealers, and hobbyists.

My apologies for engaging those who range from sceptical to near indignation about the show itself,  and the LionChief and LionChief Plus approach that was featured in this terrific show featuring that particular innovative product line.  It seems that some in the hobby, whether new or experienced, are agitated about this new approach by Lionel to keep costs down and make available a simpler, gentler command-type system. 

Interestingly, no one who is strictly a Legacy/TMCC person seems to be bent out of shape.  It's a few conventional folks, who perhaps see another example of the hobby moving away from their cherished and traditional way of doing things.  The less said about the other command system enthusiasts who have tried to pour frigid H2O on the whole deal, the better. LionChief will almost certainly work just fine on those layouts.  This product doesn't in any way compromise those who might want to use these two or three systems simultaneously.

The bottom line is here is a national show that features three rail trains.  No one an afford to buy that these days. I wonder if the complaints and nit-picking would have been as strong if the segment featured conventional trains or command trains by one of Lionel's competitors?  Doesn't matter, really. The secondary bottom line to me is here's a system that allows retailers to sell starter sets for $120-150 street price, making them much more affordable than anything else out there in three rail other than used equipment.  That cost efficiency cannot be bad for the hobby in any way,  shape or form, and it would be comforting to think that most consider that a key issue.  Furthermore, beating a dead horse here, these sets can operate on a conventional layout if you have separate loops or blocks, which are the common approaches to layouts bigger than an oval.  They also will operate fine on command layouts.  No harm, no foul.

Get with the Christmas spirit if you can, and try, if you can, to recognize something that is good for the hobby as a whole (the TV show and the products).  I promise this is my last post to this thread .

Well, I'm a conventional-only person who is not the least bent out of shape about these nice new product lines from Lionel. First, Lionchief Plus runs in conventional with the flip of a switch - I view Lionchief non-plus, which does not run conventionally, as probably an oversight on their part now corrected with the plus version.  Regardless, I fully support these new product lines as it will bring new people into the hobby.  I could see myself using Lionchief controllers in the future: never Legacy or DCSW, but Lionchief, yes - that might happen.

Just viewed today's (December 16, 2013) segment again on Fox's site. I believe that it is the same layout, although the buildings on the right side have been rearranged so that the GCT is placed a bit to rear. Given that structure's size, it is a feature that quickly catches the eye (early in the morning ). Great eye candy on TV! The layout is a very effective ambassador for the hobby, especially since these promo spots are pretty brief.

Nice job.

Bob

It was right during my commute time. Is there a link to it anywhere?

I appreciate the Toy Train exposure by Lionel/Fox. In spite of the silly, immature-acting anchors and ever present computer timing to shorten the scenario,the Lionel rep Rep did a good job and the objective was worthwhile. A good thing !

If you did not see it you can go to their web page(fox and friends) and go to videos.   You can see it there.   BTW, it was funny but at the end one of the host complained about the noise from the fastrack

Lionel Trains on Fox & Friends:  December 16, 2013

http://video.foxnews.com/v/294...list_id=930909787001

That was fun to watch.. great entry level remote control.  Lucky to be a kid today, what a blast!

In a word, sweet!

I only see positive from this TV spot......it wasn't planned to be a know all see all for all Lionel products. All good in my eyes......maybe my vision is bad....but I'm happy!

I'll bet any kids that watch the video will get a kick out of the "accident", almost straight out of "The Munsters".

That was a much better segment than past visits to F&F. It helped too that he didn't run all 3 trains too fast throughout the segment. Did everyone catch the reference to $329.99 MSRP? That prompted me to do some checking and I see that Plus diesels retail for $329.99 and steamers for $429.99. Given how much the street price might be, I guess that's not too bad. I wonder if there is any research to see what impact a segment like this has on sales? Not to be critical, but I would have mentioned more about the remote controls rather than the iPad app. I suppose mention of the iPad will generate some interest though.

The layout has a seam right across it, laterally, to allow for it to be folded when moving it through the office doorway (seen in one of my photos, here.) I wonder if that is where you saw a "bump."

The death of this hobby, or segment of the hobby (O gauge) won't be lack of exposure.  It'll be all the grumpy curmudgeons on OGR who can find anything to complain  about anything, and can't keep any thread on topic.    If I were new and came across this website/forum, I'd scurry right back out.

The segment was just fine.   These brief spots are not designed to be in-depth discussions.   For that, you buy a 15 or 30 minute spot for insertion into local cable companies.

The bump can be seen around the 1 minute mark, just after the green train comes out of the tunnel.