Lionel Type "Q" Repair & Restoration

Love this new direction!

Here is the 1941 Pricing of the Type Q transformer:

I'm unhappy that your closing has gone trolling by repeating the misconception that modern trains and classic transformers are incompatible. The fact is, the breaker in the transformer, both modern and classic, is sized to protect the transformer itself, not the downstream equipment. Every layout operating modern equipment, regardless of classic or modern power source, should have additional protections with appropriately sized circuit breakers and TVS diodes for each buss for the downstream equipment.

bmoran4 posted:

Love this new direction!

Here is the 1941 Pricing of the Type Q transformer:

Yep, so by 1946 it was probably up to $8-$10. Thanks!

It's impossible to do a video like this without upsetting someone somewhere. I was always taught not to trust modern electronics to those older circuit breakers, so I was just passing on what I've been told. When shooting a video that's going to be on youtube for years to come it's always best to err on the side of caution...which is what I did. I'm not sure how that qualifies as "trolling".  Glad you like the new direction!

Wow great video really enjoyed it. Wondering what you used to clean up the coil.

I watched it on the TV. Really great.  Please do more of the same, postwar repairs. How about a tutorial for soldering to help some of us that suck?

bmoran4 posted:

...I'm unhappy that your closing has gone trolling by repeating the misconception that modern trains and classic transformers are incompatible. The fact is, the breaker in the transformer, both modern and classic, is sized to protect the transformer itself, not the downstream equipment. Every layout operating modern equipment, regardless of classic or modern power source, should have additional protections with appropriately sized circuit breakers and TVS diodes for each buss for the downstream equipment.

This is exactly right. The video perpetuates the myth that fast-acting breakers are what you need to protect modern electronics.

Transient Voltage Suppression is what is really needed. Breakers & fuses are to protect the transformer & wiring from too much current, TVS diodes are to clamp over-voltage, regardless of the age of the transformer, 100 years old or two weeks old. The damage from voltage spikes is ongoing and cumulative, and is just due to the nature of moving an electrical appliance(the train) along the rails it gets its power from. A faster breaker will cut power from a short sooner, but the damage is already done.

Super video, very enjoyable. IMHO, Eric's comments on circuit protection were spot on and appropriate. After all, the video was about repairing an old transformer, not about protecting everything on the layout. Nice job.

ADCX Rob posted:

bmoran4 posted:

...I'm unhappy that your closing has gone trolling by repeating the misconception that modern trains and classic transformers are incompatible. The fact is, the breaker in the transformer, both modern and classic, is sized to protect the transformer itself, not the downstream equipment. Every layout operating modern equipment, regardless of classic or modern power source, should have additional protections with appropriately sized circuit breakers and TVS diodes for each buss for the downstream equipment.

This is exactly right. The video perpetuates the myth that fast-acting breakers are what you need to protect modern electronics.

Transient Voltage Suppression is what is really needed. Breakers & fuses are to protect the transformer & wiring from too much current, TVS diodes are to clamp over-voltage, regardless of the age of the transformer, 100 years old or two weeks old. The damage from voltage spikes is ongoing and cumulative, and is just due to the nature of moving an electrical appliance(the train) along the rails it gets its power from. A faster breaker will cut power from a short sooner, but the damage is already done.

Thanks, Rob. That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection. This is something that most people, myself included, are not aware of so I definitely appreciate the info. I don't claim to be an expert in electronics.

 Perhaps I'll do a video at some point explaining what you just explained to me. 

Thanks again,

Eric

ericstrains.com posted:

I didn't care for being called a "troll" simply because I made a mistake. To me, being called a troll is bit of a personal insult

 Eric,

I want to personally apologize that my wording made you feel insulted. As with written words, the tone and context gets lost. I was trying to convey that spreading that myth is an easy way to gain a polarized attraction that trolls thrive on. Inadvertent, innocent, honest mistakes can be troll food. I was not trying to state that you yourself were intentionally trolling, and again, apologize that it came across as such.

~BMORAN4

As for more information on the why TVS diodes are needed and such, here is some information I've compiled:

The TVS diode protects against voltage spikes caused by collapsing electromagnetic fields generated by the layout (relays, solenoids, motors, derailments etc).

A short video about those spikes from collapsing magnetic fields (scaled up from our trains, but lays out the scenario in an easy to consume way):

Since the source of these spikes are layout side, you want the protection layout side. Many people put these TVS diodes on the track, others put them on the output terminals of the transformer, and some do both!

With a ZW, it is easy to take 4 TVS diodes, shape them like this so they wrap around the binding posts, (A-U, B-U, C-U, D-U).

The 1.5KE36CA is what seems to be generally recommended around here and good for most any O gauge AC setup.

These diodes are sacrificial. They degrade as they protect against the voltage spikes. Just as your surge protector power strips recommend replacement every so often, same goes for the TVS diodes for similar reasons. TVS diodes can fail silently (no symptoms in operation), or fail spectacularly as a dead short, or fail annoyingly open preventing any power. There isn't a practical way for the layman to test the diodes for all the failure modes, so having a few on each buss and a replacement schedule (every few years) seems to be a reasonable balance.

Most people immediately think about their track and expensive locomotives, but don't forget to protect your accessory buss as well. They also have solenoids, relays, motors, and other sources of the EMF.

Some argue that power systems, like the MTH TIU, already have a TVS diode. That is true, and does offer protection, but it is thought to be better to have the protection closer to the sources, so the closer to the track, the better. Some even make it a practice to install these diodes directly in the locomotive so they don't have to worry about their club or friend's layout having the proper protection.

Most of all, the myth that fast acting circuit breakers (or fast blow fuses) are all you need is false - they do nothing to protect the sensitive electronics from these EMF voltage spikes. However, additional circuit breakers should still be considered essential. The main purpose of the transformers circuit breaker is to prevent the transformer from being damaged by an over current situation - this sometimes has the side-effect of also protecting downstream equipment (trains), but again, is not the principle purpose. If you have a huge honkin' tonkin' transformer capable of 15A output, but your train only needs 5 amps, then it should be on its own buss/block with a 5-7 amp breaker. This helps the small wires in your engine or powered rolling stock from carrying 15+ amps and melting in a direct short situation. For an accessory buss with small gauge wire, you definitely do not want 15+ amps going through that in a short situation, so again, an appropriate sized breaker.

Another need for external breakers on each buss/channel is that on classic transformers, not all potential power paths are protected. For example, a ZW with 4 channels, only has the U terminals behind the breaker. A short could happen between any two non-U posts with no internal overload protection.

For circuit breakers (and fuses), there is this misconception that circuit breakers trip the instant they are over their rating. i.e a 10 Amp breaker will trip at 10.01 amps or 10.1 amps, or definitely by 10.5 amps. That is generally not true. Just take a look at a generic breakers specification sheet:

In this common example, you can see that constant 135% overload (13 Amps on this 10 Amp breaker) could take an hour to trip. (https://ogrforum.com/...cuit-breaker-stumped). As such, there are those who seek out magnetic or electronic breakers over traditional thermal ones. However, remember, in a dead short, something like a ZW can pump out 50 Amps minimizing the trip time of even thermal breakers (and also illustrating the need for discrete channel breakers - imagine 50 amps going through a small 24 gauge locomotive or accessory wire for an instant).

Most of all, this advice/recommendation for TVS diodes and discrete external circuit breakers pertains to all power sources, classic and modern, from your pre-war alphabet soup, through your classics like the ZW, to your shiny new ZW-L or Z4000.

If you are curious about the trip times of the classic Lionel transformers, the 5D testing documents have a nice chart to reference:

Enjoyed this a lot. None in this series had direction or whistle controls. I have the Z model and added direction buttons and 5 amp resettable circuit breaker.

Terry

bmoran4 posted:

ericstrains.com posted:

I didn't care for being called a "troll" simply because I made a mistake. To me, being called a troll is bit of a personal insult

 Eric,

I want to personally apologize that my wording made you feel insulted. As with written words, the tone and context gets lost. I was trying to convey that spreading that myth is an easy way to gain a polarized attraction that trolls thrive on. Inadvertent, innocent, honest mistakes can be troll food. I was not trying to state that you yourself were intentionally trolling, and again, apologize that it came across as such.

~BMORAN4

As for more information on the why TVS diodes are needed and such, here is some information I've compiled:

The TVS diode protects against voltage spikes caused by collapsing electromagnetic fields generated by the layout (relays, solenoids, motors, derailments etc).

A short video about those spikes from collapsing magnetic fields (scaled up from our trains, but lays out the scenario in an easy to consume way):

 

Since the source of these spikes are layout side, you want the protection layout side. Many people put these TVS diodes on the track, others put them on the output terminals of the transformer, and some do both!

With a ZW, it is easy to take 4 TVS diodes, shape them like this so they wrap around the binding posts, (A-U, B-U, C-U, D-U).

The 1.5KE36CA is what seems to be generally recommended around here and good for most any O gauge AC setup.

These diodes are sacrificial. They degrade as they protect against the voltage spikes. Just as your surge protector power strips recommend replacement every so often, same goes for the TVS diodes for similar reasons. TVS diodes can fail silently (no symptoms in operation), or fail spectacularly as a dead short, or fail annoyingly open preventing any power. There isn't a practical way for the layman to test the diodes for all the failure modes, so having a few on each buss and a replacement schedule (every few years) seems to be a reasonable balance.

Most people immediately think about their track and expensive locomotives, but don't forget to protect your accessory buss as well. They also have solenoids, relays, motors, and other sources of the EMF.

Some argue that power systems, like the MTH TIU, already have a TVS diode. That is true, and does offer protection, but it is thought to be better to have the protection closer to the sources, so the closer to the track, the better. Some even make it a practice to install these diodes directly in the locomotive so they don't have to worry about their club or friend's layout having the proper protection.

Most of all, the myth that fast acting circuit breakers (or fast blow fuses) are all you need is false - they do nothing to protect the sensitive electronics from these EMF voltage spikes. However, additional circuit breakers should still be considered essential. The main purpose of the transformers circuit breaker is to prevent the transformer from being damaged by an over current situation - this sometimes has the side-effect of also protecting downstream equipment (trains), but again, is not the principle purpose. If you have a huge honkin' tonkin' transformer capable of 15A output, but your train only needs 5 amps, then it should be on its own buss/block with a 5-7 amp breaker. This helps the small wires in your engine or powered rolling stock from carrying 15+ amps and melting in a direct short situation. For an accessory buss with small gauge wire, you definitely do not want 15+ amps going through that in a short situation, so again, an appropriate sized breaker.

Another need for external breakers on each buss/channel is that on classic transformers, not all potential power paths are protected. For example, a ZW with 4 channels, only has the U terminals behind the breaker. A short could happen between any two non-U posts with no internal overload protection.

For circuit breakers (and fuses), there is this misconception that circuit breakers trip the instant they are over their rating. i.e a 10 Amp breaker will trip at 10.01 amps or 10.1 amps, or definitely by 10.5 amps. That is generally not true. Just take a look at a generic breakers specification sheet:

In this common example, you can see that constant 135% overload (13 Amps on this 10 Amp breaker) could take an hour to trip. (https://ogrforum.com/...cuit-breaker-stumped). As such, there are those who seek out magnetic or electronic breakers over traditional thermal ones. However, remember, in a dead short, something like a ZW can pump out 50 Amps minimizing the trip time of even thermal breakers (and also illustrating the need for discrete channel breakers - imagine 50 amps going through a small 24 gauge locomotive or accessory wire for an instant).

Most of all, this advice/recommendation for TVS diodes and discrete external circuit breakers pertains to all power sources, classic and modern, from your pre-war alphabet soup, through your classics like the ZW, to your shiny new ZW-L or Z4000.

If you are curious about the trip times of the classic Lionel transformers, the 5D testing documents have a nice chart to reference:

 

Wow, now that's a thorough explanation! Thanks a bunch for that! No worries, all good.  These videos are my babies and they take a long time to make (This one took about 4 weeks to make) so, truth be told, I'm probably little overly sensitive at times.

Again, thanks for the great info! I may do a future video that covers this stuff.

-Eric

Learn something new every day. I have been in this hobby for over 50 years and never heard of a type Q transformer. I have mainly focused on post war to the present.

Loved the video Eric.

Thanks

Great video on restoring the Q, particularly the magic eraser idea.

Keep them coming.

Eric, excellent video. Very well done. Thank you! Looking forward to more in this series.

Hey Eric - For some reason I just really enjoyed watching this video 

The old stuff is so engaging 

Thanks

The above table shows a Type Q costing $5.95 back in 1941. The US Inflation Calculator shows that as being like $104.48 today.

Well, after all that back and forth, I just want to jump in and say that I enjoyed this quite a lot, even though I'm not an "old train guy". But, I still find the old stuff interesting from time to time (it's what I had in the 50's, and still have on a shelf). Also, nice to see someone fix something.

Looking forward to the next one; nice change of pace. 

And, boy, that's a noisy locomotive!