Lionel Veranda Turbine smoke units

Not normal, the controls on the motherboard may be getting confused.  Mine runs around with the turbine on as long as it stays above the trip speed.  Do the turbine sounds kick off as well?

Good question John. I will have to run it again and listen to the sounds. With 2 other trains running together, it was hard to distinguish. And with all the smoke from that and the Big Boy, I was slightly out of touch with reality! Lol!

I'm waiting for JT's to make marijuana scented smoke fluid. Would bring back about 40 years ago state of mind.😁😁😁😁

I will post about sounds soon.

Sorry, I had not seen this thread when I posted on your other one (your nefarious garage activities). No, that sequence is not right for the Veranda. I thought you might have accidentally turned the turbine exhaust unit off, which is easy to do.

This set is of course TMCC and has to be set up as a train (nos.1-9). Are you using a Cab1 or Cab 2? I’d try a reset first. This set is fairly old and starting with that might cure the issue.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Not normal, the controls on the motherboard may be getting confused.  Mine runs around with the turbine on as long as it stays above the trip speed.  Do the turbine sounds kick off as well?

John, Hancock 52,

Starts off with diesel sound with rear unit working. Changes over to front unit when turbine sounds kick in at step 6-7. After a few loops, turbine sounds stay on, front unit stops and rear unit kicks back in. Only after stopping completely, the regular sequence starts over.

Going to get the instruction manual and try a reset. If it is still #8 which is diesel with smoke, I will do a reset but looking into manual first.

Still the beast roars!

Here's the reference to smoke operation as well as the User's Manual.  The smoke operation is unlike any other engine, just so you know.

Reprogramming info on page 18 of the User Manual.

Lionel 6-18149 UP Veranda Turbine & Tender User Manual.pdf

Lionel 6-18149 UP Veranda Turbine Smoke Unit Operation.pdf

Lionel 6-18149 UP Veranda Turbine Wiring Diagrams.pdf

STOP PRESS: Look at page 18 of the manual, which says the reset number is 6, not 8, which is a surprise to me.

Those are all the Lionel publications on this set that I know of; the operation is unique to it. I confess that I like it so much I have two. The most recent one, which came in the original box and shipping carton, took about 2 minutes of re-starting/setting to run right but it does exactly what the books say. I use mine with a Cab 2, latest update. I have never been very confident that Legacy latest issue controls these older engines as well as a Cab 1 base station and remote. Earlier Legacy did.

I have two of them as well.  I got a chance to buy the second one at a really good price and jumped on it.  It needed a bit of smoke unit work, but now it's better than new.   I mean to double-head them at one of our modular train shows, that will be a sight!

As far as the reset code, that makes sense.  Look at the wiring diagram, the Veranda doesn't use the standard smoke unit commands, it has a unique motherboard with a microprocessor on the MB controlling the smoke units.  The R2LC smoke output is likely used in the lighting operation.  That's why the oddball smoke on/off controls.

It comes programmed with a default TMCC Train setting of 9, engine is #1 and tender #2. I have stuck with that; haven’t tried double heading mine as the older one is in the shops being slowly attended to (by me).

What Ted describes sounds like a software issue with the smoke units going back to slow speed operation even though the sound is at the higher speed setting. That’s why I thought of reset first. If all else fails most of the internal electronic components for these models were still available from Lionel last time I looked.

I am aware the on- off smoke unit keys with a remote. Unique commands that I have written down. I am not running it as a Tr setting, just using their own eng numbers. 
Going to check out the manual before doing a r2lc reset with number 6. I know exactly have to do resets. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

As far as the reset code, that makes sense.  Look at the wiring diagram, the Veranda doesn't use the standard smoke unit commands, it has a unique motherboard with a microprocessor on the MB controlling the smoke units.  The R2LC smoke output is likely used in the lighting operation.  That's why the oddball smoke on/off controls.

The only thing I can add is that the smoke on/off routine you have to go through derives from the fact that like other TMCC and some early Legacy engines, the smoke units don’t shut down with the Railsounds. I find with my pair that after entering the normal shutdown command (AUX1 +5), the diesel smoke unit still runs. Not good for the model if it is standing on a powered siding.

Also the resistors on mine came stock with the fiber sleeve around them although I think they don’t have standard 27 Ohm resistors (have not checked the parts listing to be sure).

Hancock52 posted:

If all else fails most of the internal electronic components for these models were still available from Lionel last time I looked.

Actually, the part that actually controls the smoke unit, the custom motherboard, is not available.

Ted Bertiger posted:

Going to check out the manual before doing a r2lc reset with number 6. I know exactly have to do resets. 

Where do you think I got that number.

I think if you start this engine up by just rolling it out with the throttle, the smoke units get kind of confused. I think it's best to start it up with AUX-1 after punching in the address. Might be worth a try.

I don't think I have any RS4 diesels anymore, but the revs would hang up and not follow the throttle correctly if you didn't start the engine using the AUX-1 button. The AUX-1, 5 shutdown didn't seem to work either. 

Ted,

I have had some issues with the smoke units on my Veranda, but they were constant and not a sequence of operation generated problem.  After some trial and error, I finally replaced the R2LC board.  And that did the the trick.  If you have an extra one in your parts, try that. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hancock52 posted:

If all else fails most of the internal electronic components for these models were still available from Lionel last time I looked.

Actually, the part that actually controls the smoke unit, the custom motherboard, is not available.

Pity, but I have one stashed away! (Cue sound of evil laughter 😁)

The other info above about starting up and the radio board is interesting. I have never started mine "cold" just by moving the throttle or shut them down other than via the TMCC command. Never tried running them in conventional either.

So I tried the reset with #6 and did not help. What is happening the front unit element is always on unless you shut it off, the same with the fan. I have them both turned on, if I blow down the stack, smoke appears through the trucks. 

It will change from rear to front but the front does not stay on for long while rear stays on all the time. The rear is not shutting down when the front comes on. So the front fan will spew a load of smoke for a few seconds, then stop but the resistor is still hot emitting smoke.

There is something with the front fan not staying on. I did take the shell off, looked under the smoke units boards to make sure that excess fluid did not get into the fan blades. No excess fluid there. While I was there, I moved the wicking around as it was charred a bit.

I do have extra R2LC boards so a swap is possible and doing what Norm said starting up with the aux 1 button.

The Veranda is back on the shelf for now.

This is just a wild shot but is it possible that dirty track, wheels or pickup rollers are causing a voltage drop making the board think the the power is being adjusted up and down while the train is running thus causing the random smoke output changes?

Forest.

Sorry to hear that; these sets do not deserve shelf ornament status but they were well ahead of their time in terms of operating functions and we all know what that means.

I noticed that your garage layout is all tubular track and that might account for voltage drops as described above. However, if you are getting the same problem on a club layout that may suggest an issue with the engine's onboard components. 

I think that the implication of what GRJ says above in his 3rd post is that the smoke controls (on the motherboard) might not be affected by the R2LC (I'm guessing here) but in your position I'd try a swap anyway at some point.

You do not see voltage drops as the Veranda has odyssey. I am going to clean the track again as it is on the garage floor and possibly some small amount of vapor/mildew might affect operation. I can't test it on the club layout as we are closed indefinitely. I can alway put a loop inside the house with cleaned track and test it there.

It is not the fan as it does turn on, hust it does not stay on. All those boards connections were firmly re-attached when I unscrewed the top board.

Interesting project?

Hancock52 posted:

I think that the implication of what GRJ says above in his 3rd post is that the smoke controls (on the motherboard) might not be affected by the R2LC (I'm guessing here) but in your position I'd try a swap anyway at some point.

Hard to say if the R2LC has a hand in it, but swapping it isn't a bad idea anyway.  My real point was that if it's the MB, you're kinda' screwed unless it's something that can be repaired.

The front smoke element always stayed on whether the fan was running or not unless you turned it off with the CAB-1 sequence. 

Another thing that might be worth checking is to see if Odyssey is actually on. Someone on here years ago actually had the on/off switch wired backwards. 

Norm Charbonneau posted:

The front smoke element always stayed on whether the fan was running or not unless you turned it off with the CAB-1 sequence. 

Another thing that might be worth checking is to see if Odyssey is actually on. Someone on here years ago actually had the on/off switch wired backwards. 

I've had the switch wiring issue too but not on these engines. In any case, the Odyssey in them (whichever version it is) has been a little problematic from time to time; I don't know whether it functions to even out voltage differences from the track supply to control boards and smoke systems as well as the motors. Anyway, add that to the list of things that might be checked.

My experience is that both smoke elements are always on unless shut down manually but I haven't noticed them being powered enough to produce much smoke when the fan motors are not engaged. One of the manuals GRJ has linked above states in definite terms that it takes the smoke units some time to warm up, which I have found to be accurate but also not meaning that once that has happened they are on full power all the time.

Interesting indeed and it would be a real shame not to find a fix.

I suspect, though I haven't actually checked, that these are handled much like the whistle steam smoke for Legacy.  They keep a "warming" current on the resistors so the turn-on is quick, and then shoot the full juice to them when they're called on to operate.  I have noticed they seem to stay on all the time.

I do remember the rear unit shut off completely, element and fan.

I seem to remember you could confuse their operation if you turned the units off and on manually. 

Using AUX-1, 0 would probably the best way to get them to sequence correctly if they seem to be out of order. Like I mentioned earlier, I always had the habit of firing up the older RS4 diesels with AUX-1 to wake them up properly due to the sound issues they used to have. This may or may not affect the smoke units though. I don’t have this engine anymore to test it out.

I haven't had mine out for a run lately, so I took it out and ran it around.  I don't see any of the behavior that Ted is describing regarding the smoke unit operation, they all do exactly what I'd expect.  I never had both smoke units running at once.

So, please correct me, are not the relays for the smoke unit within the R2LC board?  If not, then where, on the mother board?  Seems like the relays are not working correctly.  That's where I would look.

There are no relays, the R2LC has a single smoke triac.  However, for the Veranda, the two smoke units are controlled by a microprocessor on the custom motherboard, the smoke triac on the R2LC in the Veranda is wired to the cab light.  Try it, turn on "smoke" the conventional way with AUX1/9 and the cab light comes on, turn it off with AUX1/8, and the cab light goes off.

That's also why the Veranda has unique smoke controls.  While the smoke fans are controlled automatically, you have independent control of them by command control.  These commands are not processed by the R2LC, but rather by the motherboard microprocessor.

John I'm looking for a motherboard for the Veranda 6-18149.Do you happen to know of any other shops that may have one of these boards? Thanks

I sure don't, Lionel is sold out.  If you have a bad one, I'd suggest you entertain the idea of repairing it, because I don't know where you'll get a new one.