Lionel vertical or horizontal motor F3, which is faster?

I think that if you were to compare your Postwar Lionel 2343 to a Postwar Lionel 2383, you would find that the 2343 was slower. The 18117 is a Modern era piece.

C W Burfle posted:

I think that if you were to compare your Postwar Lionel 2343 to a Postwar Lionel 2383, you would find that the 2343 was slower. The 18117 is a Modern era piece.

There are only two ways the 18117 could be different from a 2383 (since they both use the same mechanical E-unit). 1st they could have a different gear ratio. I've compared the number of teeth on the motor armature on the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor in the 18117 and the 2028-100 motor in the 1955 vintage 2243 I own. They are the same. The worm gear/gear train in the trucks on the 18117 and 2243 have the same number of teeth (wheel gears, idler gears, main gear, worm wheel), so it can't be a gearing issue. The only other possibility is the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor armature and field coil have a different number of windings vs. a 1950s vintage 2028-100 motor. It's possible.

I have noticed that, running light (no train) the 2343 has a higher top speed than a 2243, 18117, 18573 GP9, and 2328 GP7. So for some reason it's faster than any 2028-100 powered locomotive I own. Do I happen to have a freak 2343?

I really feel that the vertical is a faster runner and is really a far cry quieter too...

Marty

There are only two ways the 18117 could be different from a 2383 (since they both use the same mechanical E-unit). 1st they could have a different gear ratio. I've compared the number of teeth on the motor armature on the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor in the 18117 and the 2028-100 motor in the 1955 vintage 2243 I own. They are the same. The worm gear/gear train in the trucks on the 18117 and 2243 have the same number of teeth (wheel gears, idler gears, main gear, worm wheel), so it can't be a gearing issue. The only other possibility is the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor armature and field coil have a different number of windings vs. a 1950s vintage 2028-100 motor. It's possible.

The issue could also be how the motors and truck blocks were made. I have run into issues with binding in a few Modern era truck blocks. Could have been wear, or it could have been poor assembly. I don't recall whether I just had to reposition some parts, or if I added some nylon washers to address the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking Modern era production, I have a new, old stock 18117 myself.

And Postwar Lionel mechanisms can suffer from wear as well. Right now I have a couple of Postwar Budd cars that probably would run a lot better if the axle bearings were replaced.,

Martin Derouin posted:

I really feel that the vertical is a faster runner and is really a far cry quieter too...

Marty

The 18117 is much quieter than the 2343. Almost can motor quiet in comparison. 

Yes but with the 2343 originals, you don't need a sound system.....LOL

C W Burfle posted:

There are only two ways the 18117 could be different from a 2383 (since they both use the same mechanical E-unit). 1st they could have a different gear ratio. I've compared the number of teeth on the motor armature on the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor in the 18117 and the 2028-100 motor in the 1955 vintage 2243 I own. They are the same. The worm gear/gear train in the trucks on the 18117 and 2243 have the same number of teeth (wheel gears, idler gears, main gear, worm wheel), so it can't be a gearing issue. The only other possibility is the 1993 vintage 2028-100 motor armature and field coil have a different number of windings vs. a 1950s vintage 2028-100 motor. It's possible.

The issue could also be how the motors and truck blocks were made. I have run into issues with binding in a few Modern era truck blocks. Could have been wear, or it could have been poor assembly. I don't recall whether I just had to reposition some parts, or if I added some nylon washers to address the problem.

Don't get me wrong, I am not knocking Modern era production, I have a new, old stock 18117 myself.

And Postwar Lionel mechanisms can suffer from wear as well. Right now I have a couple of Postwar Budd cars that probably would run a lot better if the axle bearings were replaced.,

It's possible the axle bearing have wear, but everything turns smoothly with no binding. No weird noises when running down the track or running upside down hooked up to a transformer. 

The 18117 has some miles on it. I've owned it new, along with the matching 18121 and 18122 B units since 1996. Took a whole year of saving money earned from shoveling snow and mowing neighbors lawns to buy. It was my primary locomotive when I was 11, so it has been run quite a bit. Is there a way to check wheel run out? The wheels aren't shifting around when running upside down.

Dan Padova posted:

Yes but with the 2343 originals, you don't need a sound system.....LOL

I actually run a F3 B unit with railsounds 2.5 behind the 2343, to drown out the noise.

The horizontal motor used in the F3’s until 1955 are far superior to the vetical motors .

The horizontal motor could pull better, could run slower and when a Rail Sounds B unit is added the combined sounds are very unique.

 Thanks,

Richard

Some people like the growl of the horizontal motors;  some don't.   For me, if I'm in the mood, I really like them.  And, I don't have to worry about a sound board going out.

Alan

I never worried about which was "faster" as I don't routinely run anywhere near the full speed of any locomotive.

The 2343 F3s sure are great pullers also.

Richard Gonzales posted:

The horizontal motor used in the F3’s until 1955 are far superior to the vetical motors .

The horizontal motor could pull better, could run slower and when a Rail Sounds B unit is added the combined sounds are very unique.

 Thanks,

Richard

I haven't noticed much if any difference in pulling power between the two styles, just top speed. The horizontal motor F3s are heavier than the vertical motor F3s, but that probably has to do with the truck design more than anything else. 

For myself, it is more about torque than it is speed........

Jesse

What's the gear ratio of your particular 2343?  If I recall, the original 2333's were actually a little faster (just under 8:1), and Lionel lowered the ratio (numerically higher to ~9.6:1) when Magne-Traction was added in 1950.  Really reaching here, but maybe your 2343 received 2333 gearing in a previous rebuild?

Ted Sowirka posted:

...If I recall, the original 2333's were actually a little faster (just under 8:1), and Lionel lowered the ratio (numerically higher to ~9.6:1) when Magne-Traction was added in 1950...

The gears are all the same. It's been said the magnetic force made for a lower top speed, but I have not observed that.

They are both great and top speed is irrelevant to me.  That being said our 2383 is smoother at low speeds, faster, and quieter than our 2343.  It is also smoother than our 1983 vintage MPC NYC F3 and slightly smoother than our PWC Wabash F3 and the conventional classic black bonnet F3.  The Williams can motored B&O F3 runs comparably to our 2383.

It's possible the axle bearing have wear, but everything turns smoothly with no binding. No weird noises when running down the track or running upside down hooked up to a transformer. 

The binding is not something you are likely to notice with the truck assembled to the motor. The problem manifests itself in a slow running engine. The truck block has to be disassembled from the motor, and the wheels turned by hand. Easier to do with the top plate removed too. It's only held in by one screw.
Not certain that a person who wasn't very familiar with how the mechanism should feel would pick up on it.

Turn the wheels, hold each shaft to one side and then the other, and look for rubbing. The worm will impart sideways force on the worm gear, pushing the worm shaft assembly to one side or the other, depending upon the direction.

 Is there a way to check wheel run out?

While you have the truck apart, try wiggling the wheels. If there is a lot of play in the bearings, you'll feel it. Might as well check how much play there is between the idler  (Spur) gears and their shaft too.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I never worried about which was "faster" as I don't routinely run anywhere near the full speed of any locomotive.

Good point. Lionel trains were originally designed for young kids many of which who loved to run them as fast as they could. Today with the maturity of the market I doubt if there are more than a few that like watching model trains speeding along at 200 scale miles per hour. 

The old horizontal motors used in the Lionel F3's were noisy but they were well built and ran well at lower speeds. Those motors even used ball bearings on the shaft.  If I were to run mine, the motors and drive mechanisms would be thoroughly cleaned and lubricated before running.  I don't have the number  but would venture to say that those early motors with the heavy windings used quite a bit of current.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...The old horizontal motors used in the Lionel F3's were noisy but they were well built and ran well at lower speeds. Those motors even used ball bearings on the shaft.

I've never seen ball bearings on any of the shafts, but I have contemplated a refit to see how it works.

Wheel tread size?  Armature diameter might change torque or speed on equal windings&field. Variences totaled, or wear? Resitance to free spinning from the extra bearing support and sideload/thrust angles?

That's about it for their ways I can think of to explain it if gears are equal.

"Slower" is almost always better.

Ted Sowirka posted:

What's the gear ratio of your particular 2343?  If I recall, the original 2333's were actually a little faster (just under 8:1), and Lionel lowered the ratio (numerically higher to ~9.6:1) when Magne-Traction was added in 1950.  Really reaching here, but maybe your 2343 received 2333 gearing in a previous rebuild?

ADCX Rob posted:

Ted Sowirka posted:

...If I recall, the original 2333's were actually a little faster (just under 8:1), and Lionel lowered the ratio (numerically higher to ~9.6:1) when Magne-Traction was added in 1950...

The gears are all the same. It's been said the magnetic force made for a lower top speed, but I have not observed that.

I measured the ratio on my 2343 and 2353 and it worked out to be 9.45 revolutions of the armature to 1 revolution of the wheels. The worm is 8:1 like typical Lionel diesels. The drive gear on the armature shaft end is slightly smaller than the gear on the worm shaft so there is a little bit of reduction there making the total ratio ~9.5:1. 

ADCX Rob posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...The old horizontal motors used in the Lionel F3's were noisy but they were well built and ran well at lower speeds. Those motors even used ball bearings on the shaft.

I've never seen ball bearings on any of the shafts, but I have contemplated a refit to see how it works.

I rebuilt the motors of my 2343 with ball bearings. My experience is that the 2343 pulls less amps and the growl is gone. There is some slight gear whir from the three gears but that is about it. They were radial ball bearings that I bought from https://www.bocabearings.com/ 

Yeah, but don't the chicks dig fast trains.  After all, speed matters...

C W Burfle posted:

It's possible the axle bearing have wear, but everything turns smoothly with no binding. No weird noises when running down the track or running upside down hooked up to a transformer. 

The binding is not something you are likely to notice with the truck assembled to the motor. The problem manifests itself in a slow running engine. The truck block has to be disassembled from the motor, and the wheels turned by hand. Easier to do with the top plate removed too. It's only held in by one screw.
Not certain that a person who wasn't very familiar with how the mechanism should feel would pick up on it.

Turn the wheels, hold each shaft to one side and then the other, and look for rubbing. The worm will impart sideways force on the worm gear, pushing the worm shaft assembly to one side or the other, depending upon the direction.

 Is there a way to check wheel run out?

While you have the truck apart, try wiggling the wheels. If there is a lot of play in the bearings, you'll feel it. Might as well check how much play there is between the idler  (Spur) gears and their shaft too.

I'll take everything apart and look at the trucks separately. They have all the original gearing and bearings still installed. There is some side to side movement of the wheel/axle assembly, but it's the same as the 2243, postwar GP7, and modern GP9 I own that have the same style truck assemblies. I'll take the trucks off and check for any fore/aft movement in the axles, and any wear on the spur/idler gears as well. If there is none then I guess that it's just slower at 20 volts. Not that I normally run it that high. I'm more concerned about it running efficiently than absolute top speed. 

Here is a picture of the motor armature. Not sure if the ball bearing is visible or not, but it is the bright silver ring right against the armature shaft. 

The universal motor is a curious mix of metric and imperial units. The armature shaft is 0.1870 inch which is for a 3/16 bearing but the cavity size in the motor housing is 11 mm. That made adapting a ball bearing a little difficult. 

The other end is a 3/16 inch i.d. 1/4 inch o.d. ball bearing.  

ADCX Rob posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...The old horizontal motors used in the Lionel F3's were noisy but they were well built and ran well at lower speeds. Those motors even used ball bearings on the shaft.

I've never seen ball bearings on any of the shafts, but I have contemplated a refit to see how it works.

1 ball on each end of the shaft inside the bronze bearings.

Adriatic posted:

...Variences totaled...

Most likely.

Dennis Holler posted:

ADCX Rob posted:

Dennis LaGrua posted:

...The old horizontal motors used in the Lionel F3's were noisy but they were well built and ran well at lower speeds. Those motors even used ball bearings on the shaft.

I've never seen ball bearings on any of the shafts, but I have contemplated a refit to see how it works.

1 ball on each end of the shaft inside the bronze bearings.

In the trucks. This is a common issue to address as they wear.

I checked the wheels/axles for play on the 18117. There wasn't any abnormal play. I compared it to a couple postwar trucks of the same style and they had the same amount of play. I also checked the spur/idler gears for wear on the 18117 and there was none.

After that I decided run a test to determine how fast in scale mph, at 20 volts (indicated on a ZW handle) the 18117 F3, 2343 F3, and a pair of postwar GP7s could get a test train to go. The test train consisted of 6 Lionel 2500 series aluminium passenger cars and 2 Lionel F3 B units. The results were:

18117 F3: 99.93 scale mph

2343 F3: 106.43 scale mph 

Pair of postwar GP7s: 94.86 scale mph

So the engines with the same motor/truck design hit about the same top speed, with the 2343 topping out about 7 mph faster.

Maybe somebody went over your 2343 and fine tuned it somewhere along the way.
In any case, since everything seems to be working properly, I guess I would not worry about it.
Enjoy your stuff!

I bought the 2343 as a beater about 7 years ago. I believe I was the first person to service it in about 50 years. I dissembled both motors and trucks, cleaned, lubed, and oiled everything. Replaced the brushes and brush springs. It's run great since.

I did notice that on both motors in the 18117 the top of the armatures were not even with the field, and there was a bit more vertical lash than I like. I added one more 671m-23 thrust washer to each motor to take up a bit of the play and raise the armature slightly. The order now goes retaining ring 671m-22, thrust washer 671m-23, thrust bearing 681-121, 671m-23, 671m-23, bushing, 671m-23, 681-121, 671m-23, 671m-22. This tightened up the vertical play slightly and made the armatures even with the field coil.  The result of this was improved running at all speeds. Now the 18117 hits about 110 scale MPH with the same test train and runs better in the usual 14-16 volt operating range. It'll creep the test train around even slower than before, still moving it at 8-10 volts. I may try this same arrangement in the GP7/GP9s I have with the same drivetrain, as it seems to have improved performance for the better. 

Good information.   I would have never guessed that a 2343 would be as fast as 2383 or a 18117.  Certainly not faster.

A fine example of the internet actually being useful (instead of all the facebook and tweeter garbage.)