Lionel Visionline GS-4 Main Drive Motor Stalled Error

First thing I would do is remove those 10 passenger cars and try again.  Quick and easy thing to try.  JP

Since this is a Legacy locomotive, it should have back driveable gears.  Can you turn the drive wheels through a full rotation in either direction?  If not, you may have something stuck in the gears.

Sadly, another issue could be the Canon motor, they've been less than reliable.

Unless your power supply or track wiring is sub-standard, it's hard to imagine, just powering ten lighted cars shouldn't cause this issue.

Thanks for the reply John. Are you saying I should be able to rotate the drive wheels by hand in either direction? If so, I cannot. They have some rotational play, but I cannot go past that.

That's what I'd be looking at first.  You should be able to rotate the wheels.  They will have some resistance, but unless this particular model departed from the Legacy norm, they are back-driveable gears.  I don't have the GS-4, but I have several other 4-8-4 Legacy locomotives, all have back-driveable gears.

I've seen this firsthand as well.  The GS-4 will signal a stall if gearing is tight.  I've also seen a single example of side rod clearance issues.  Examine your side rods for binding, and correct if so.  

To clear the gearing bind, gently rotate the tire drivers back and forth, without forcing them.  Then place on the track, power up and try her in reverse.  If she is able to move a few feet, set her back to forward and she if she'll move.  If she does, give her a serious break in run of at least 1 hour.  Rinse and repeat as needed.  It seems the latest motors are VERY stall prone.  

I suspect they may have cranked up the sensitivity due to the fact that the Canon motor is prone to taking out the RCMC!  I'm putting in a 2A PTC in my Legacy locomotives with the Canon motor, I've seen too many RCMC's that have been toasted by the Canon motor!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sadly, another issue could be the Canon motor, they've been less than reliable.

I solved that problem .

How to void the warranty on your brand new Legacy steam locomotive in one step, swap the motor. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

In addition to what GRJ said, the DCS explorer is limited to 6 Amps and has a 5A fuse.  If you've had trouble before, maybe something is up with the DCS Explorer.  With 10 lit cars that in itself is probably a 3A draw if they are incandescent.

Some things to try:

1. Remove the passenger cars as others have suggested.
2. Bypass the DCS explorer to make sure it isn't somehow limiting current.
3. If your comfortable with some disassembly, you could try disconnecting the main rod from the driving wheels to determine is something is bent and binding.

Note: If you do #3, take pictures of everything before you start.  Use a dry-erase marker or something to mark the position of the eccentric and main rods.  Do not remove the side rods as you could potentially put it out of quarter and that would be bad.  Do not allow the valve gear to get tangled in the rods.  Doing any of this work may or may not void your warranty.  I use painters tape to sort of build a harness for them.

@rplst8 posted:

Do not remove the side rods as you could potentially put it out of quarter and that would be bad. 

That won't happen by removing the side rods. The wheels are quartered on the axle. The side rod has nothing to do with quartering, it just lines all the rod bolts up. I've taken plenty of steam locomotives apart, all the way down to removing all the rods, and never had one go out of quarter.

@Lou1985 posted:

I solved that problem .

How to void the warranty on your brand new Legacy steam locomotive in one step, swap the motor. | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

On a brand new $2K engine you have to swap the motor so it doesn't fry the electonics? Yikes!

@Lou1985 posted:

I've taken plenty of steam locomotives apart, all the way down to removing all the rods, and never had one go out of quarter.

Yep, I've lost count of all the steamers I've pulled all the running gear off.  As long as you know how to put it back together, it's not a problem.

However, I think we're getting the cart before the horse here, first step is simply to examine the running gear to see if an obvious flaw exists.  I rarely have to pull all the rods to find this kind of issue.

@BobbyD posted:

On a brand new $2K engine you have to swap the motor so it doesn't fry the electonics? Yikes!

Sadly, in the case of the Canon motors, that answer is occasionally yes.  I've personally repaired three of them that had dead Canon motors, two destroyed the RCMC, the 3rd one cooked the FET drivers, but I was able to repair the board.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yep, I've lost count of all the steamers I've pulled all the running gear off.  As long as you know how to put it back together, it's not a problem.

However, I think we're getting the cart before the horse here, first step is simply to examine the running gear to see if an obvious flaw exists.  I rarely have to pull all the rods to find this kind of issue.

Yes,…easier solution is to pop out the worm shaft, leaving everything else alone, then the locomotive is free to roll about if not back-driveable …..making mechanical diagnosis much simpler,….then you can roll it around like a Hot Wheels car,…😉

Pat

We're hoping for a solution that doesn't require pulling the boiler shell.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

We're hoping for a solution that doesn't require pulling the boiler shell.

Agreed, but if the OP can’t roll the drivers, ( not sure if his model is back-drivable or not) and he can’t see something blatantly obvious,…….. guess what’s happenin??……and no, it’s not Howdy Doody time,…🤣🤣🤣

Pat

Pat, the new Vision Line GS-4 almost surely has back-driveable gears.  Given that assumption, if they're not movable, something is likely wrong with the rods.  For sure, that would be where I'd look before taking it apart.  We can always start taking screws out, but not everyone is comfortable taking their $1500 locomotive apart.  More importantly, it's the getting it back together that's frequently the issue.

Update: I've pulled all the lighted passenger cars off the layout and checked the connecting rods for and binding issues. Here's what I found.

1. No binding in the connecting rods.
2. One of the traction tires was broken. I may have done it when trying to slide the loco on the track.
3. Engine moved backward slightly under its own power before shutting down.
4. There appears to be more binding in the second to last set of main drive wheels.
5. Still get the error after removing lighted cars.
6. This engine was purchased used and I was told it was only run on a test track after initial purchase. I found this little metal screen loose in the box. Any idea where it belongs?

Thanks for the continued help,

Cyril

Probably time to dive in as Pat has suggested.  I think checking the gearboxes is probably next.

Well, he’s already committed to swapping out a tire, and although completely unnecessary, it is easier to wrangle a tire with the shell off,….I’m truly not advocating it, but the arrows are surely pointing us down that road,….it stinks, but unless he sees an “ah-ha” …..somebody hand him a Phillips ….please,…😬

Pat

Thanks guys. This will be the first O scale engine I've disassembled. Any good tutorial videos or documents you would recommend?

Don't pinch any wires putting it back together or the repairs will skyrocket in price!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Don't pinch any wires putting it back together or the repairs will skyrocket in price!

That’s the best advice ever!…

Pat

UPDATE: Just talked to Lionel support and the tech said the wheels are fixed and will not turn by hand. He suggested I check the voltage to make sure the engine is getting 18v. He said less may cause the problems I'm experiencing.

Or he said it could be out of oil and water.

@CyrilW posted:

UPDATE: Just talked to Lionel support and the tech said the wheels are fixed and will not turn by hand.

I'd like to hear from an actual owner about the back driveable gears.  It'll be a surprise if Lionel has suddenly stopped doing that.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'd like to hear from an actual owner about the back driveable gears.  It'll be a surprise if Lionel has suddenly stopped doing that.

The engine is indeed backdrivable.

Given the broken traction tire, could it be that one of the brake shoe details is digging into the rubber? The brake shoes on the two rear sets of drivers are brass which means they're more prone to being bent than the die-cast front brake shoe details.

Thanks Dave, good call on the brake shoes.

SO ….boys & girls,…..Lionel support techs ain’t in sync with the folks that engineer these things??…….oh my!…..thank god Dave Olson stepped up to the plate!….thank you Dave!..

Pat

Like Dave said, check the brake shoes, they are a fairly common issue.

UPDATE: I replaced the traction tire and checked the brake shoes. After applying a bit of force, I was able to rotate the wheels an 1/8 turn or so. Put the engine back on the track and am able to get it moving forward, but something is wrong. Take a look at the video.

I'd STOP trying to run it, that sounds like the gearbox!  I think it's time for the shell to come off now!

Yes, agree with John, stop!….that’s the same thing my legacy ESE did right before the Cannon motor took a dump,…..not saying that’s the case here, but as John has reported from the field, IF the motor blows, it’ll CAN take very expensive things with it,….things that will hurt your feelings ….quickly….😬

Pat

I agree with John and Pat.  It's time to escalate the repair.  Lets get the shell off and remove that defective motor.  If it's your first time, go slowly, make notes and take photos with your phone. Do not force anything.  You may want to send her out for service if you're nervous about it.  The motor PN is 6101300100.

Actually, if the motor turns out to be the issue, I'd send it to Pat and let him put a Pittman in it, no sense replacing the crappy Canon motor with another crappy Canon motor!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Actually, if the motor turns out to be the issue, I'd send it to Pat and let him put a Pittman in it, no sense replacing the crappy Canon motor with another crappy Canon motor!

Lionel used a Pittman 9433 in their earlier release. It should be a direct swap for the Canon motor.

Also before anyone complains Pittman is charging around $100 a motor now. They've basically priced themselves out of our market, hence why Lionel is using Canon motors instead.

@Lou1985 posted:

Also before anyone complains Pittman is charging around $100 a motor now. They've basically priced themselves out of our market, hence why Lionel is using Canon motors instead.

What's the weakness in the design of the Canon motor that causes them to fail like this vs Pittman or Mabuchi for that matter?

I think I only own 1 Canon powered locomotive. The ESE hudson. So if it begins to lurch and grind the motor is toast? Just so I keep an eye/ear out for potential failure.

@RickO posted:

What's the weakness in the design of the Canon motor that causes them to fail like this vs Pittman or Mabuchi for that matter?

I think I only own 1 Canon powered locomotive. The ESE hudson. So if it begins to lurch and grind the motor is toast? Just so I keep an eye/ear out for potential failure.

The brush plate/brush spring design isn't very robust. The brushes will break off and short out the motor. To be honest the Canon motor would probably be fine with a better brush plate/holder design. I haven’t looked into Canon motors enough to see if they all have the same design or if their is a more expensive version with a better brush plate/holder design. I just swap them out for Pittmans.

@Lou1985 posted:

Lionel used a Pittman 9433 in their earlier release. It should be a direct swap for the Canon motor.

It is a direct swap. Shaft diameter, mounting hole locations, and thread size are identical.

Pete

@RickO posted:

What's the weakness in the design of the Canon motor that causes them to fail like this vs Pittman or Mabuchi for that matter?

I think I only own 1 Canon powered locomotive. The ESE hudson. So if it begins to lurch and grind the motor is toast? Just so I keep an eye/ear out for potential failure.

My Legacy ESE developed a clicking noise audible over the sound system, kinda like a baseball card in bicycle spokes,….the locomotive began lurching just like the one in the video above,….immediately pulled it off the track, and tore the motor out to find one of the plastic pegs that retains the brush holder had broken loose, and the brush was trying to walk up off the commutator face,….it was in the beginning stages of a full blown short,….

Pat