Lionel Warranty Process; Practical?

I doubt that Lionel will cover this under warranty.

You may be able to repair this with JB Weld product.

Don,

Why won't they cover the one I bought two months ago? Broken metal isn't covered?

Ali

@Ali Maleki posted:

Don,

Why won't they cover the one I bought two months ago? Broken metal isn't covered?

Ali

Did you purchase it from an authorized Lionel Dealer?

Yes.

The one from two months, they might cover it with no problem. Anything over a year from the date of purchase is not likely. They are not exactly clear on New Old Stock items purchased from a dealer, they may opt to have you send it in and repair it for you, replace if one is still available, or provide a refund (possibly through your dealer).

I'd call or email to see what they are willing to do.

For reference, here is Lionel's warranty policy: https://www.lionelsupport.com/warranty

If they were all made at the same time, we could be looking at another model affected by zinc pest  (brittle metal caused by intragranular corrosion, due to poor quality control of the die-casting process.)  The recurrence of this problem could also be caused by insufficient packaging or poor packaging design.  In any case it's not your fault.

There's not a lot of surface for JB Weld to grab onto.  If it's zinc pest it will continue to crumble so you're fighting an uphill battle.  To get these cars on the rails, I would plan on replacing the trucks.  You'll have to search the lionelsupport.com parts site to find out which trucks are compatible.  (And hopefully, get good ones this time!)

One thing to note in the Lionel warranty...

Products that are more than 3 years old, from date of manufacture, are not applicable for warranty coverage, even if they have never been sold prior to this date. (Under no circumstance shall any components or labor be provided free of charge.)

One of the worst warranties ever honestly.

My original title for this post was: Lionel Warranty; Real or Imagined

I changed it because I thought it might rub some people the wrong way!

I have had a few warranty claims and all added together I was treated better than I expected.  Lionel AND MTH have even gone beyond reasonable a couple of times.  But only after I got through the steps with getting the claim started in the first place. 

Why are unique warranty issues hard for a company like Lionel in the trains business?

- The fact that MANY hobby products in general stay in a package a long time before use, making judgement of legit claims difficult for Lionel.

- The fact that trains are bought from MANY retailers, and also sometimes bought from a retailer who had the item on the shelf for an extended period of time.  Trains are slow movers at the local hobby shops.

- AND that many train products (especially engines) are bought with the idea of collecting and may not even get opened or tried for YEARS. After those years, sometimes we expect the warranty to begin when we try it- vs. when we buy it.  That's unrealistic.

But "may not even get opened or tried for YEARS" makes trains different than the warranty on almost any other category of products.  So:

- When you buy a new item, remove from the box, and check it carefully.  Test it.  Far better than any gain you might get from being able to say "In original, unopened package"- which doesn't mean anything except to collectors.  IF anything is wrong act right away.

- Keep the receipt!

- For minor issues - fix them yourself.  IF you have a bent axle on a tender- ask them to send you a new axle and wheel set or a truck (vs. sending the tender back).  Faster, easier for everybody, and less chance further damage could be done in transit or where and by whom??

Lionel's warranty is very similar to others in the model railroad industry.  Not to mention almost every other small appliance or consumer good, as far as I know.  Try getting your microwave repaired under warranty after a year, or your Apple or most Windows computers.  Same deal.  No one buys a Ford and drives it 4 years later and asks for warranty repairs.  Lionel's limit for 3 years for "new, old stock" is reasonable given the expense and difficulty of maintaining a parts inventory and having staff trained for relatively older equipment. The advice above to examine and test on receipt is absolutely good advice, IMO.

"I changed it because I thought it might rub some people the wrong way!"

Doesn't rub anyone the wrong way. The unrealistic imagination here is that a small company is going to warranty a product for eternity after issuing.  Even Hyundai, a large company warranties its cars for "only" 10 years. That's unheard of in most industries.  If you buy an MTH product, you're pretty much in the same boat. Return for a refund is the only option in most cases.

In this case, the retailer is responsible in most states for selling a device or product that functions as intended.  Send it back to the retailer for a refund if it's not easily repairable yourself.  Lionel does warranty repairs for products purchased from their authorized dealers, as mentioned, but only for one year after purchase, and not for items over three years old.  Then it's the retailer's issue.  Not sure, other than understandable disappointment, what the material issue is here.  Are you sure the retailer won't take it back?

@Landsteiner posted:

Even Hyundai, a large company warranties its cars for "only" 10 years. That's unheard in most industries.

It's mostly unheard of in the automotive industry as well, only couple car companies have a 10 year warranty.  Hyundai/Kia and Mitsubishi are the only companies with the 10 year warranty.

I think the Lionel warranty is reasonable, and they still offer factory service for warrantied products.

The MTH warranties are not any better. I wasn't trying to make a comparison.

No other industry accepts the amount of just plain disintegration that happens in this one.

The three year limit is totally about absolving themselves of having to deal with any issues related to zinc rot. And IMHO, which admittedly isn't worth much, it is just not fair. It's one thing when something breaks or fails and it's repairable. Zinc rot completely ruins models.

If anyone thinks that Lionel's (or MTH's) 1 year warranty is that bad, you should pull out some of the paperwork from your postwar and MPC stuff. Back then the warranty was 90 days and you had to register (by mail) your warranty card to Lionel within 10 days of purchase to make it valid.

As for "10 Year" automotive warranties, READ THOSE CAREFULLY. I'll bet in all of those cases, that's a power-train only warranty that will only cover mechanical parts that come in contact with lubricants. The bumper to bumper warranty is usually 3 (possibly 5) years and up to 36,000 to 60,000 miles. So if your alternator, engine control module (computer) or heated seat goes out after the bumper to bumper period, you're on the hook for the cost of repair.

Give Lionel a call and ask. It couldn’t hurt.  They had higher than average warranty calls on those trucks, and may replace it at no charge if they have any in stock. It worked for my son last year, who had the same problem on that exact truck.

I must give the Lionel Service Department A pluses on 3 warranty issues. I sent a then new Mountain type back because it didn't run and it was repaired and returned without issue. After my Legacy developed problems, I returned it and they repaired it and sent it back operational. The third issue was over a new FM C liner. It lost the idler gear and my hobby shop told me to return it to Lionel for warranty repair. The engine was at Lionel for what seemed like an inordinate amount of time. After my inquiring a few times, they admitted they lost the unit. However they told me they would replace it with a brand new engine. I had to accept a different road number but I believe Lionel went above and beyond to solve my issue. It is important to give credit where credit is due.  Bill

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

It's mostly unheard of in the automotive industry as well, only couple car companies have a 10 year warranty.  Hyundai/Kia and Mitsubishi are the only companies with the 10 year warranty.

I think the Lionel warranty is reasonable, and they still offer factory service for warrantied products.

I respectfully disagree, with the price of Visionline engines 1 year is for too short. Than after a year parts are obsolete? Only in our hobby.

@ThatGuy posted:

I respectfully disagree, with the price of Visionline engines 1 year is for too short. Than after a year parts are obsolete? Only in our hobby.

Well, Vision Line has a 2 year warranty...

Parts aren't obsolete after a year, but you have to pay for them.  I'm still buying RCMC and RS-Lite boards from 10-12 years ago.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, Vision Line has a 2 year warranty...

Parts aren't obsolete after a year, but you have to pay for them.  I'm still buying RCMC and RS-Lite boards from 10-12 years ago.

Your right I miss typed, still short and best of all obsolete parts a few years out. Makes a great paper weight.

I would like to clarify something for a few people, I love my Lionel trains. Just because I think they do some things wrong (my opinion) does not mean I hate our hobby. I think people on any forum need to cool off and just listen to what someone is saying not the knee jerk response you see all too often.

example: I posted that always saying the parts (electronic)are no longer available is true just not really true. There is always the upgrade or direct replacement. Yet this ghost story lives on, I know this because I restore antique electronics some older that 70 years and yet I can find the direct part or the newer replacement. Yes sometimes I have to upgrade an entire circuit but get the job done.

to all who have sent me hate mail, thank you.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, Vision Line has a 2 year warranty...

Parts aren't obsolete after a year, but you have to pay for them.  I'm still buying RCMC and RS-Lite boards from 10-12 years ago.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, Vision Line has a 2 year warranty...

Parts aren't obsolete after a year, but you have to pay for them.  I'm still buying RCMC and RS-Lite boards from 10-12 years ago.

Yes John a true statement yet many of the other boards are not on engines a few years old. In a repair shop I go to they have 4 or 5 VisionLine engines with dead boards no longer available. I always go back to HO or RC strange how they never have a (obsolete) issue with their engines/remotes/cars only O gauge.

Yes, the first Vision Line engines do indeed use the early Legacy modular boards that have gone extinct by edict at Lionel.  I have one of the first Vision Line models, the PRR CC2.  I really hope it's obsolete parts don't croak.  I did pick up a spare smoke controller

The primary challenge with Lionel and MTH's warranty is that some of us, maybe a good proportion of the total, are engaged in full-time work and trying to build a layout while also juggling many of life's demands. In simple terms, we're buying trains on pre-order and not fully testing them before packing up and storing...and sometimes not testing them at all. Before we realize it, 3 years have blown by. The other factor is collectors who don't test or run their trains at all, and then decide to either build a layout and run them, or sell them.

It needs to be understood by the importers that building a layout is tremendous time-consuming task, as is properly testing an engine and going through the diagnostic period, and IMO it is in their interest to extend the warranty such that they'll have more loyal customers down the road.

I've had decent experiences the two times I've claimed warranty support.  Both were brand new Legacy steam within the one year period.  The engine had to go back both times (single Blink of Death out of the box) and each time took at least a month to return.  One took almost two months.  No problems at all for either item upon return.  Frustrating, but they fixed it.

A word of advice: trying to contact Lionel or any other model train manufacturer for support or warranty claims between Halloween and New Year's will result in things taking two to four times longer than they usually do.  If you can do it before or after that window, you definitely should.

"I know this because I restore antique electronics some older that 70 years and yet I can find the direct part or the newer replacement. Yes sometimes I have to upgrade an entire circuit but get the job done."

How is this different from our O gauge locos?  If the original part is no longer available, which it often is not, there are upgrades or replacements that are almost always feasible according to people whose opinion I respect (Gunrunner John and Norton as examples).  Not always easy, definitely not cheap, but the reality for all older devices where obsolescence is a matter of years, not decades.

I suspect people are reacting to your statements that the situation is hopeless, irresponsible on the part of the manufacturer,  and different from HO or other scales.  That's not what I'm hearing from the folks on this forum who have expertise.  Broad generalizations, when clearly false, get people annoyed .

@Landsteiner posted:

"I know this because I restore antique electronics some older that 70 years and yet I can find the direct part or the newer replacement. Yes sometimes I have to upgrade an entire circuit but get the job done."

How is this different from our O gauge locos?  If the original part is no longer available, which it often is not, there are upgrades or replacements that are almost always feasible according to people whose opinion I respect (Gunrunner John and Norton as examples).  Not always easy, definitely not cheap, but the reality for all older devices where obsolescence is a matter of years, not decades.

I suspect people are reacting to your statements that the situation is hopeless, irresponsible on the part of the manufacturer,  and different from HO or other scales.  That's not what I'm hearing from the folks on this forum who have expertise.  Broad generalizations, when clearly false, get people annoyed .

You prove my point, in every other hobby it’s customer first. You did not read what I said but reacted to what you thought I said.

"You did not read what I said but reacted to what you thought I said."

Alternatively, what you wrote did not express what you meant with sufficient precision. The fact that you received negative feedback suggests this is a possibility. 

I think Lionel puts the customer first as much as they can, as do almost all companies, which explains their survival for 124 years or so.  Perfection escapes most companies and people.

@Landsteiner posted:

"You did not read what I said but reacted to what you thought I said."

Alternatively, what you wrote did not express what you meant with sufficient precision. The fact that you received negative feedback suggests this is a possibility.  Not worth arguing about, but offering this point as an opportunity for self-examination, instead of your 100% blaming other people for misunderstanding your point.

I think Lionel puts the customer first as much as they can, as do almost all companies, which explains their survival for 124 years or so.  Perfection escapes most companies and people.

Most people take any criticism as personal or an attack on their beloved Lionel. I did not make general statements but stated fact. Only our hobby seems to be infected with “obsolete “ electronics everyone else finds a works around. That’s my point. I will give you a simple example. A friend gave me a 15 year old Wathers engine, not worth much but had great sentimental value. Early DCC, I called Wathers and after a “I will call you back” they did and for a few bucks a complete upgrade from the manufacturer and a best of all every option worked. Not just an upgrade to get it to run, but all including cab number call out. BTW there is no place for nasty mail, ever.

Lionel has not survived for 124 years, it has been rescued multiple times.

"BTW there is no place for nasty mail, ever."

On that we can all agree. 

@Landsteiner posted:

"BTW there is no place for nasty mail, ever."

On that we can all agree.

Btw I do not take our two different opinions as an argument but good open discussion.

Once again, the same actors going off topic....closed!