Locomotive Purchase Decision

As I understand it, Odyssey, is like automotive cruise control, set it and train is maintained at that set speed. It does not respond to the throttle. If you want to change the set speed you have to reengage the cumbersome reset procedure. Odyssey II is throttle responsive, and will maintain the speed you set with the throttle. It is either on, or off, and there is a slide switch dedicated to that purpose.

I disagree with Mark. Odyssey is Lionels original cruise control, the locomotive speed still can vary with the throttle knob.

Oddyssey II is a later cruise after Lionel made refinements. Most TMCC locos can crawl nearly as good as their Legacy versions.

How good they crawl tends to vary a bit from loco to loco depending on gearing etc. Whereas more effort has been made with Legacy engines to have closer slow speeds to make them " lashup" easier.

I managed to track down a youtube video of the locomotive in question. ( not mine) it appears to creep rather well: https://youtu.be/AcRwqJOTKFI?feature=shared

On a side note, while this engine only has 4 rpm levels as opposed to the 8 found in Legacy models. I think you'll find the overall sound very good and much louder than your Legacy engine.

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

As I understand it, Odyssey, is like automotive cruise control, set it and train is maintained at that set speed. It does not respond to the throttle. If you want to change the set speed you have to reengage the reset procedure. Odyssey II is throttle responsive, and will maintain the speed you set with the throttle. It is either on, or off, and there is a slide switch dedicated to that purpose.

No, you got that wrong (not trying to be rude, just correct the info) Odyssey is just the concept of controlled speed- the same way you described Odyssey II.

Again, first generation Odyssey did the same thing, rather than previous open loop control (plain TMCC with either an ACDR driving an AC motor, or DCDR PWM feeding a DC can motor) with NO RPM feedback, Odyssey added that feedback and control loop. Again, previous TMCC non-Odyssey equipped locos have no tachometer and no feedback circuit so they can and will vary speed with load compared to the command input for speed. An Odyssey equipped loco tries to maintain the commanded speed even as load changes (grades, curves, extra drag).

The mechanical and electrical difference:

Early Odyssey used a magnet encoder ring on the flywheel and a matching Hall effect sensor PCB on the motor sensing the magnet ring. Sometimes these magnet rings crack and since they are spinning at high speed on the flywheel can break off and fly apart. Also, the earliest versions of odyssey have no ON/OFF switch to disable the function and go open loop mode without feedback (helpful for testing and bypassing a broken magnet ring situation). Again, in the very early versions, there was sometimes some odyssey lurch where it was not as smooth or speed jumps 6-28078 is a loco I owned previously that had such a lurch.

Later Odyssey added a physical ON/OFF switch to turn the function off and go open loop control. They still used magnet rings.

Modern Odyssey II is a refined version that now uses an optical encoder ring and sensor. Gone are the days of the failed magnet ring.

Vernon - would using conventional vs. command alter this paradigm?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

Vernon - would using conventional vs. command alter this paradigm?

I would refer to this topic https://ogrforum.com/...yssey-and-odyssey-ii

In general, I do not expect Odyssey to work or work well- regardless of version in conventional due to the concept of voltage headroom.

In order to control speed (Odyssey speed controlled feedback loop)- you need a source of voltage greater than the motor actually needs to be able to throttle and adjust it to the given mechanical load to maintain an exact speed. In conventional, even if the board senses that voltage as an offset to lower the starting speed, there is limited headroom and odyssey or similar speed control feedback feature is less effective compared to command mode with full voltage on the track and tons of headroom for fine control.

I'll say this- the pro tip is go to Lionel support on any Loco you are considering buying and look at the parts breakdown lists and diagrams.

Know and understand what trucks are used, what gearing systems, what motors, smoke system- is there the now obsolete regulator??, what encoder and electronics- making a note of what is available and not available.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...-Diesel-8618-6-28544

Am I going to pull my hair out servicing this style of truck and motor mounting system? Clearly, I have to reach and remove the screw for the pickup roller and wiring- what kind of nightmare is that the day I need to take it apart?

Am I going to be up the creek sans a paddle with the smoke unit regulator? On one hand, this is the TMCC version with an R2LC not a Legacy R4LC, so one can change the smoke resistor and change the wiring to run direct from the R2LC smoke output, but are you OK with that should it come to that?

If any of the electronics fail, do I then have a serious problem?

I might want to have a magnet ring spare on hand if owning this loco

I'm not saying this is a bad loco and I would never own it. Simply not the case. However, since I am an operator, and looking as using it and running it for some time in the future- my parts and how hard is it to service do affect what I might be willing to pay for a given loco. I'm just saying, if you are going to start the topic of "Locomotive Purchase Decision", this is the criteria I use when looking at a loco.

Thanks all for the feedback.  The price differential between the 2 is what led to the question.  I don't have all that much TMCC or Legacy stuff, but the last 2 command things I purchased (one BTO, and one NIB that was 10 years old) had to be sent in for repairs.  The 20 year old one TMCC diesel I'm interested in is at one of the major forum sponsors, so it hasn't been sitting is someone's attic.  However, as @Vernon Barry pointed out, critical parts for it are non-existent.  The price differential between it and the new Legacy one is pretty big, about $200, but the old one will still cost over $300.  At this point I don't think I'll chance it.

@texgeekboy posted:

Thanks all for the feedback.  The price differential between the 2 is what led to the question.  I don't have all that much TMCC or Legacy stuff, but the last 2 command things I purchased (one BTO, and one NIB that was 10 years old) had to be sent in for repairs.  The 20 year old one TMCC diesel I'm interested in is at one of the major forum sponsors, so it hasn't been sitting is someone's attic.  However, as @Vernon Barry pointed out, critical parts for it are non-existent.  The price differential between it and the new Legacy one is pretty big, about $200, but the old one will still cost over $300.  At this point I don't think I'll chance it.

Echoing some of Vernon's comments. I have 3 of these locos, love them all but they do come with the a fore-mentioned issues.
I have personal, and not fun experience with the trucks on these engines. Lionel had used a 2-piece truck for a while. They are on these engines and are a royal PITA to take apart.

Sounds like you decided to pass but I thought I'd add my $.02

Bob

Not discounting anything Vernon is saying, but I've had much better reliability with my 20 year old tmcc engines.

There are options with aftermarket electronics to keep older models going.

I've stopped buying the new stuff because Lionel forgot how to build a gearbox.

As far as Lionel is concerned, if your choosing items based on parts availability, good luck with that. They can dump / discontinue parts at any time like they did with the early Legacy and VL stuff.

I have a mix of old and new. My mid 2000s engines are all proven reliable runners. Non had issues out of the box. I will run them, as well as my newer engines as much as I want.

I'll worry about something breaking , when it actually does. There are more important things to "worry" about.

I am with Rick on this one. Odyssey works and parts to keep an Odyssey engine running can be had from Electric RR. Newer Odyssey runs smoother than first generation but even those are acceptable, to me anyway. Lionel has the flywheels and magnets for the motors they used.
Given a choice of the Odyssey or Legacy version of the same engine I would take the Odyssey engine for its simplicity and ease of repair but that just me. YMMV.

Pete

@texgeekboy posted:

Thanks all for the feedback.  The price differential between the 2 is what led to the question.  I don't have all that much TMCC or Legacy stuff, but the last 2 command things I purchased (one BTO, and one NIB that was 10 years old) had to be sent in for repairs.  The 20 year old one TMCC diesel I'm interested in is at one of the major forum sponsors, so it hasn't been sitting is someone's attic.  However, as @Vernon Barry pointed out, critical parts for it are non-existent.  The price differential between it and the new Legacy one is pretty big, about $200, but the old one will still cost over $300.  At this point I don't think I'll chance it.

I too, have a TMCC and several early Legacy engines (all diesel), for which parts are not available. But I’ve been running them for years with no issues.

However, if the price difference is only a couple of hundred bucks between the old one and the current Legacy one, I’d get the new Legacy. At least, parts for it are currently available for awhile. 😉

Is the 2004 engine a  32 speed step engine vs the newer 200 speed steps?

I recall buying a couple TMCC engines 03ish era to compare to my PS2 engines. The 32 speed steps was a deal breaker for me

Now the new legacy stuff is another story. They crawl so smoothly! Back in the day I recall discussions about how slow a PS2 engine would crawl smoothly. Most of mine are smooth down to 5/6mph, I have a couple that creep smoothly at 2/3mph. Those old TMCC engines couldn't touch that that, plus the jump between speed steps seemed huge! I sold both TMCC engines.

I've got one legacy diesel ultra smooth and dare I say better, smoother, slower crawl speed than the majority of my PS2/PS3 engines. And the rail sounds 5 seem far superior in quality. Lionel has really upped their game since the early 2000's IMHO.

To my opinion you should stick with Legacy.  I was not impressed with the performance of 1st-gen TMCC or Odyssey.  Legacy is what Odyssey should have been in the first place.  More speed steps, and importantly, back-drivable gears so that the dual motors don't fight each other at low speed.  It also makes it easier to replace a motor if it ever becomes necessary to do so.  Re: the flywheel magnet failure, the replacement magnet is not well-designed and the repair is not trivial.

It's not about how many locos you have, it's how much enjoyment you get out of each one.  ALL of these feature-laden 21st Century locos are susceptible to failure of the electronics or "extra" features like smoke, sound, and couplers.  Personally I would spend a little more and stick with Legacy.  My $.02.

More good points.  Thank you all for providing your thoughts on this.  I'll pull the trigger so to speak when my financial overseer is having a good day.  I've mentioned this discussion to her today, and she didn't say 'no' to the idea.  That's a good sign.

@RickO posted:

I disagree with Mark. Odyssey is Lionels original cruise control, the locomotive speed still can vary with the throttle knob.

Oddyssey II is a later cruise after Lionel made refinements. Most TMCC locos can crawl nearly as good as their Legacy versions.

How good they crawl tends to vary a bit from loco to loco depending on gearing etc. Whereas more effort has been made with Legacy engines to have closer slow speeds to make them " lashup" easier.

I managed to track down a youtube video of the locomotive in question. ( not mine) it appears to creep rather well: https://youtu.be/AcRwqJOTKFI?feature=shared

On a side note, while this engine only has 4 rpm levels as opposed to the 8 found in Legacy models. I think you'll find the overall sound very good and much louder than your Legacy engine.

Good point also keeping an engine properly lubed will also go a long way.

@texgeekboy posted:

I was very pleased to see the new PRR GP9 (2433402) in the 2024 catalog.  The link to it is here.  I bought a Cotton Belt GP20 ( 2333592 ) from the 2023 catalog, and after a quick return to Lionel to replace the board, the engine is great.  The lights are fantastic, and I really like the low speed.  However, I found a very acceptable RS-11 from the 2004 catalog.  The link to that one is here.  It has TMCC and Odyssey, but I'm not sure what Odyssey is.  I have a CAB1-L and Base1-L for command.  Will I be able to get the older RS-11 TMCC engine to move as slowly as the new GP9 Legacy?

Very good question. As someone who operates his trains constantly, I like to stay away from the newer stuff. It seems that the older rail sounds 4, 5 and 5.5 not only run better but are much more resilient. They have left less electronics and the best part is they are repairable. I have seen far too many of Lionel‘s  vision line engines have boards obsoleted within two years.

@ThatGuy posted:

Very good question. As someone who operates his trains constantly, I like to stay away from the newer stuff. It seems that the older rail sounds 4, 5 and 5.5 not only run better but are much more resilient. They have left less electronics and the best part is they are repairable. I have seen far too many of Lionel‘s  vision line engines have boards obsoleted within two years.

Well, it could be sort of a crap shoot nowadays on what new Legacy engines will last. My last purchase of new Legacy was in December, 2022, when Lionel's new Union Pacific F7s came out. I've loved these engines (the head-end F7 and F7B behind it are powered) and they pull my 8 UP aluminum passenger cars without a whimper, plus all features have worked flawlessly. So, I think I would still opt for the new Legacy.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Well, it could be sort of a crap shoot nowadays on what new Legacy engines will last. My last purchase of new Legacy was in December, 2022, when Lionel's new Union Pacific F7s came out. I've loved these engines (the head-end F7 and F7B behind it are powered) and they pull my 8 UP aluminum passenger cars without a whimper, plus all features have worked flawlessly. So, I think I would still opt for the new Legacy.

Hey that’s cool………..like I tell people when the argue about color, you own the railroad……enjoy

@Rod M. posted:

Is the 2004 engine a  32 speed step engine vs the newer 200 speed steps?

The original Odyssey was 32 speed steps.  My experience has been that the Legacy models have much better low speed operation, the original Odyssey has pretty large speed steps that are pretty noticeable at low speeds.  I have quite a few original Odyssey models, and they're fine, but I prefer the better speed control of Legacy Odyssey 2.

One Legacy period I would steer clear of when considering a used purchase is early Legacy from 2006 to 2010.  That was when the modular boards were in use, the DCDS-J Odyssey 2 motor driver, and the Legacy Railsounds 5.5 and 6.0 boards.  All of the TMCC and early Legacy electronic parts are now unobtainium, Lionel yanked them from inventory a couple years ago and they have never been seen again.

Also, the early Legacy smoke regulators are notorious for failing, and there is no work-around like Vernon describes for TMCC smoke regulators.  When the early Legacy smoke regulator fails, you no longer have command controlled smoke, period.

If I see an early Legacy model that I really want, I basically assume that I'll have to replace the electronics and adjust my price accordingly.  That being said, I don't get many of them unless they're already dead.   I see some of the early Legacy Vision Line models for sale and I cringe at the prices being asked knowing that you're out in the cold if anything electronic fails!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

One Legacy period I would steer clear of when considering a used purchase is early Legacy from 2006 to 2010.

This is good to know because I've seen a couple engines in that era that I've considered.

@Rod M. posted:

This is good to know because I've seen a couple engines in that era that I've considered.

Yes, this is good to know and John is right about that. However, I purchased a new Legacy UP GP7 in November, 2007, and have run the pants off it on my layout. It's been a dependable workhorse for years.

So, I guess we never know. But I would still be leary about buyng a used Legacy engine from the period John stated. I've been lucky with this one so far, I guess. 😉

Similar to my 5V PS2 20+ year old engines. Best to avoid, but the 4 that I bought new are all good to go, as is the case with a recent acquisition from the 2001 catalog, that was extremely lightly used (~49 miles on the odometer).

If it was something from that era that I couldn't get from current era, I'd probably still buy it, MTH or Lionel!