Looking for advice as I consider a new layout...

Depends on your level of motivation and desires.  Some people drive an hour or so to a club layout but get to interact with other people, not be there in a lonely building 40 minutes from home. Do you need to get away from home or are you looking to stop in on the way home from work? Will the significant other get "suspicious"?  Where do you live? Is the winter weather conducive to driving 40 minutes to work on a layout?  Much easier to head to the basement in a snow/rain storm than trek to the car and sit in traffic?  Sometimes i have trouble just walking out to the barn loft when its nice and warm in the house. Granted its warm in the barn but its cold in between!  Best of luck!

@Farmall-Joe posted:

Depends on your level of motivation and desires.  Some people drive an hour or so to a club layout but get to interact with other people, not be there in a lonely building 40 minutes from home. Do you need to get away from home or are you looking to stop in on the way home from work? Will the significant other get "suspicious"?  Where do you live? Is the winter weather conducive to driving 40 minutes to work on a layout?  Much easier to head to the basement in a snow/rain storm than trek to the car and sit in traffic?  Sometimes i have trouble just walking out to the barn loft when its nice and warm in the house. Granted its warm in the barn but its cold in between!  Best of luck!

that is the million dollar question....traveling to get there....again trading size for access....as far as wife....she will join me much of the time on weekends etc....do gardening and other hobbies for her.   And don't mind being by myself in my train room as that is get away time...I deal with people all day long.....that part is fine....but yes.   It is nice to walk upstairs and work on the trains for 10 minutes or 2 hours...doesn't matter.  

@msp posted:

that is the million dollar question....traveling to get there....again trading size for access....as far as wife....she will join me much of the time on weekends etc....do gardening and other hobbies for her.   And don't mind being by myself in my train room as that is get away time...I deal with people all day long.....that part is fine....but yes.   It is nice to walk upstairs and work on the trains for 10 minutes or 2 hours...doesn't matter.  

I think its a great fit if your wife can also get away and do her thing.  As for size of the layout, i am working on a double deck layout roughly in the same dimensions as yours.  I went into it with a plan however to work on modeling a prototypical area, railroad and time frame.  This was not dictated by the size but my desire to model the area where i grew up, but inspired by my dad;s memories of the past of the same area.  This helped me design the layout in such a large space rather than having no clue what the track plan might be and struggling in that sense.  Maybe something you can incorporate as well.  Regards.

Is there any particular reason why you want to keep your current home?  If I were in this situation, I would buy enough land to build a complete living quarters co-located with the layout, and preferably part of the same building.  (I used to like running my trains in my pajamas )

If you're building the home from scratch, the builder could incorporate a "bonus room", full attic, second living area or whatever you need to call it for appraisal purposes, as layout space.  Electric trains don't like humidity!  If you were to construct a stand-alone building for just the trains, you would still have to run utilities, heat, cool, and insure it year-round.  Someday when the need arises, I believe that the complete home with a large bonus room / second living area would be easier to sell than a utility building with a small apartment.  From a pure cash-flow perspective I believe that you would be better off having everything at one place.  You also said that the land is CLOSER to your office.  This translates to reduced commuting time and costs, etc.

Full 1:48 scale trains (2- or 3-rail) need curves of O72 or greater -- a lot of space.  I would regard 25 x 20 as about the minimum.  For much of the country where there are no basements, it's a difficult proposition that sometimes entails difficult choices like the one you're facing.  My $.02.

I think it will work if you can spend your weekends there. Better yet if the property is on your way home and your looking at 2 short commutes. The new building isn’t going up overnight. If you have a solid track plan and a workshop at home. You could get a lot accomplished while it’s being built. You could have benchwork ready minus the legs. Maybe even get some track laid and wired. Wiring is a lot easier if it’s laying on it’s side and you can sit on a stool and do it. Most of your weekend work could be doing large assembly work where your wife can give you a hand if needed. Which at the end of the weekend really looks like you have accomplished something. Rather than spending the whole weekend doing something tedious under the layout. If you plan on doing some structures. Working part time. Some can take a few weeks to a month to complete. It’s also nice to walk into the train room and not have to deal with a huge mess with multiple projects taking place.

Some really thoughtful ideas presented here. What age are you and your wife if we may ask? Children?   Personally I would do everything possible to NOT have two properties involved - as Ted mentioned above, any compelling reasons to keep the current home?  You said the property is closer to the office. I would seriously consider building a new home and incorporate the train room in a practical manner. I am a real estate broker and a well designed new home with forethought consideration for resale sometime down the line would be your best long term investment.

I think that a trip like that to your layout would get old in a hurry.

I often walk downstairs to my train layouts for a few minutes or a half hour at a time and - of course - I also spend longer sessions with the layouts at all hours of the day and evening. Whatever your age now, I think you need to give consideration to your situation when retired - a time when you may want, and be able, to spend more time on model railroading. If I were in your position, I would first consider adding a train room to your present home or moving to a larger residence. Also, you can enjoy the hobby with a smaller layout than what you're contemplating. If you're like me, as you get older, you will prefer to be driving less and will not be wanting to travel frequently between two locations. The hobby needs to be within easy reach.

Now, you'll have to excuse me. I'm going downstairs to take photos and videos to post on the OGR Forum...

MELGAR

All great responses.....thank your for taking your time to do so.   

So, as I look back at my original post I see a couple of details I left out, that along with some of the comments/questions above  I will address here below

1.  I currently have a house with a 16x22 bonus room upstairs.  I have a layout now I have been building for 13 years.  It is substantially complete save some scenery work I would do.   So I there is no more room to grow.  I have several Lionel 21" cars....and yes it is very tight (I have o72 min. curves) but I like them.  So that is what generates the question.   I agree it very nice to go upstairs when it is cold (although I am in Florida) raining or in pajamas to work on trains for 10 minutes or 2 hours....doesn't matter.

2.  However, this would be like the dream layout -  I would go to minimum of 20/25  x 30/35.   I would have a great place to actually run 21" passenger cars.   The tradeoff is accessibility for size.  Is it worth it?

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

I think that a trip like that to your layout would get old in a hurray.

Mark's comment gets right to the point of what I am trying to determine.

3.  I am going to buy some acreage...20-30acres +/-   it is timber land/farm land.   That has pretty much been decided.  Investment etc...reasons that all would be another forum discussion.   

4.  I am 58 recently empty nester have kids are in college...so there is that transition.....plan to work another 9 years +/-

5.  Not ready to sell the current house.  But this land could certainly be a homesite in 5 years +/-   I understand all the financial aspect of two properties, investments etc.  Been in banking 31 years.

6.  The building if sold one day, would be great for tractors, ATV, fishing gear, workshop etc etc. if the next one did not have a train hobby.   So value would still be there if I never built a house.   Next guy would have  great home site with building to put whatever in.

7.  Still researching cost of the building - that will certainly play a factor in the whole plan.

8  So I guess the bottom line question is ....Is it worth giving up convenience to effectively triple the size of the layout?    Again realizing everyone has a different answer to that question.

thanks for all the feedback...enjoying the conversation.

I may have missed this detail, but with the amount of property you'll be buying and the fact you are constructing a large building to house the layout, why not add a small apartment for you and the wife to spend evenings?   Can just be a bedroom, combined kitchenette/tv room with a couch, and a bathroom/shower combo?

-Greg

@Greg Houser posted:

I may have missed this detail, but with the amount of property you'll be buying and the fact you are constructing a large building to house the layout, why not add a small apartment for you and the wife to spend evenings?   Can just be a bedroom, combined kitchenette/tv room with a couch, and a bathroom/shower combo?

-Greg

that is exactly the plan.....

msp,

I agree with Sam's comment that maintaining two properties is more work

A cautionary point ...

If/when the "train building" is unattended for days on end, consider the need for a security system - wired to the police department.  If/when it becomes known in that area that the building contains a large layout and (probably) lots of pricey trains, opportunistic thieves may target the building for its goodies.

Fortunately, train hobby appreciators and hobbyists are honorable folks, but -- unfortunately -- there are a few evil-hearted robbers.  Other OGR Forum-ites might chime in and share their horror stories.

Mike M.    LCCA 12394

@Mark V. Spadaro posted:

I think that a trip like that to your layout would get old in a hurray.

As someone who has contemplated the idea of a separate place for my layout, I heartily agree.  Lots of things will change in the next 10 years or so for you.  Although I don't have any serious physical limitations, I find that I have less desire to spend time driving, especially at night.  I've lived in rural and urban areas; rural was fun at the time, but I really like having young neighbors close by who can help out in a pinch (or in an emergency).

@Mike H Mottler posted:

A cautionary point ...

If/when the "train building" is unattended for days on end, consider the need for a security system - wired to the police department.  If/when it becomes known in that area that the building contains a large layout and (probably) lots of pricey trains, opportunistic thieves may target the building for its goodies.

Fortunately, train hobby appreciators and hobbyists are honorable folks, but -- unfortunately -- there are a few evil-hearted robbers.  Other OGR Forum-ites might chime in and share their horror stories.

Mike M.    LCCA 12394

Unless you can make frequent visits on an unpredictable schedule, your property will become a target, and even with a great security system it will take awhile for police to arrive.  My horror story is about a local club - their modest, unmarked, and nondescript building was broken into by some teenagers.  They apparently expected something more enticing (exotic cars?) and decided to vandalize the place by breaking stuff and discharging fire extinguishers everywhere.  Fortunately, insurance covered the monetary loss, but the layout was out of commission for over a year.  It left people feeling violated and scarred their faith in mankind.

It might also be worthwhile to look into what it will take to insure such a property - the fact that it won't be regularly occupied and will contain expensive contents may affect the type of coverage you can get.

IMO, there's a wealth of wisdom and experience in @MELGAR's post above.

Great points on security

i have checked crime in area - very little ….but still points are well made

To me, that seems like a very ambitious plan. Since moving into a new home is not in your plans right now, I would look into redesigning the existing large layout to accommodate the curves you need. It's always a fun challenge to rework a layout. I personally would not want to deal with the inconvenience nor the security concerns of a remote, unattended building, but I admire your devotion to the hobby. Good luck with your decision.

Okay, thanks for all the input..still considering my options....but less move the discussion to the train side of things...

If you have a blank slate of space that was approximately 25x30.....

1.  How would you set up electrical in the room.   something more than just plugs on the walls?

2.  What would you use for flooring?

3.  How would you handle lighting for the room.

4.  Who can direct me to footprints for tables/layouts for that size.

I realize these topics have been discussed elsewhere...I will look to those resources as well.   But eager to hear the latest and greatest that y'all have seen.

For me, I would want the layout with my home on my property.

I will putter in the shop, soldering something, building a model, working on scenery and might go downstairs  for small amounts of time 5 or 6 times a day.

I will run trains for 15 mins before dinner.  Or maybe while my wife watches a chick flick on TV.

I don't want to have to think and plan when I'm going to work or play on the layout.  And then think about the amount of time spent to drive to a place and how long I need to stay there to make the trip worth while.

But that's just me.

Ron

@msp posted:

Okay, thanks for all the input..still considering my options....but less move the discussion to the train side of things...

If you have a blank slate of space that was approximately 25x30.....

1.  How would you set up electrical in the room.   something more than just plugs on the walls?

2.  What would you use for flooring?

3.  How would you handle lighting for the room.

4.  Who can direct me to footprints for tables/layouts for that size.

I realize these topics have been discussed elsewhere...I will look to those resources as well.   But eager to hear the latest and greatest that y'all have seen.

Having electrical outlets in the floor can be convenient to eliminate the need to step over extension cords, but that requires making a permanent decision early on regarding where you will need power.

For flooring, I'd go with something smooth and hard under the layout so that you can move around on a wheeled stool along with something comfortable for the walking/standing areas.  Allow for plenty of headroom under the layout so you can work while sitting up.  For the aisles, I like the interlocking foam pads - comfortable on the feet, simple to put in place, and easy to replace if worn or damaged, but rolling stools don't work well on them.  I would avoid carpeting - bad for spills, hard to replace after the layout is in place, and forget about finding a dropped screw or spring. 

Put lights on a separate circuit so that a blown breaker on another circuit doesn't leave you in the dark. 

Personally, it's hard for me to imagine having to drive 30 minutes to work or play on the layout.  You mention being an empty nester now, perhaps there is room to expand into another room?  I've seen some interesting layouts that span multiple rooms, you can do some interesting things with that concept.

My first thought, unless you really want to have a second piece of property, driving 30 mins each way, will become old fast, as mentioned earlier. Your nearly finished layout in a 16x22 bonus room isn’t a bad size. I have a 13x25 around the wall layout with a center island. I’d happily give up 3 feet of length for another 3 feet in width, to be able to walk in, rather than duck under! My 21” passenger cars don’t look bad on my 0120” outside main line.

It seems like you may have many possible options right in your existing home. Since you’re an empty nester, do you have an extra bedroom or 2, next to each other, that would allow you to move the existing layout into 2 rooms while expanding your layout, with a tunnel from one room to the next as Gunrunnerjohn suggested? You may even be able to incorporate a servicing facility with a turntable that way.

Bottom line, it would be a lot easier to move furniture around in my house to accommodate a larger layout than drive 30 mins to my layout. Or relocate, and have everything in one location.

I really do appreciate everyone trying to save me from myself......let me try and clarify the plan.....

It is NOT that  I (just) want a bigger layout and am just going to go buy property 30 minutes away and build a building to accommodate the urge.   Then travel 30 minutes to go run trains.

It IS that I am going to buy 25+/- that happens to be 20-40 minutes from my current home.  (Still looking)   With the intention of one day building a home there (3-5 years) selling the home here.   In the interim - it seemed like a good idea to build some sort of temporary/small dwelling (apartment) so we could stay on the property. ....hunt, fish, garden hit golf balls etc.....so if I was going to do all of that - why not add a big garage/shop.   see barnominum/Shouse.  So If I did do that would start transitioning the trains to the property over time...and when the house was built...the layout would be well on its way.

That is the plan - really more of timing question...do I start on the layout prior to building a home?   Yes there is some risk.....but that is the plan.   To quote IRON MIKE...."everyone has a plan til they get punched in the face".

If nothing else it is fun planning for a new layout even if it doesn't happen.....or maybe just postponed.

@msp I just saw your thread for the first time and read through all the posts.  Your last post did clarify enough to make me go along with you that the concept is a well thought out one.  Buy land now, build the train building and apartment, start the layout transition by starting the layout and moving some trains while your wife joins you and gardens, etc, then build the retirement home.  I find your plan intriguing!!

I like Mallard's suggestions.  Just so you know, I usually do like his suggestions directed at me. 

@Mallard4468 posted:

Having electrical outlets in the floor can be convenient to eliminate the need to step over extension cords, but that requires making a permanent decision early on regarding where you will need power.

For flooring, I'd go with something smooth and hard under the layout so that you can move around on a wheeled stool along with something comfortable for the walking/standing areas.  Allow for plenty of headroom under the layout so you can work while sitting up.  For the aisles, I like the interlocking foam pads - comfortable on the feet, simple to put in place, and easy to replace if worn or damaged, but rolling stools don't work well on them.  I would avoid carpeting - bad for spills, hard to replace after the layout is in place, and forget about finding a dropped screw or spring.

Put lights on a separate circuit so that a blown breaker on another circuit doesn't leave you in the dark.

I'm a nearly lifelong model railroader, having built in various scales.  I'm retired now and have a ready made room, the most space I have ever had; a spare room, 11' x 11'.  I wish I could make recommendations on designing a room/building from scratch.  Hopefully more people who have done it will chime in!

@Mark Boyce posted:

@msp I just saw your thread for the first time and read through all the posts.  Your last post did clarify enough to make me go along with you that the concept is a well thought out one.  Buy land now, build the train building and apartment, start the layout transition by starting the layout and moving some trains while your wife joins you and gardens, etc, then build the retirement home.  I find your plan intriguing!!

I like Mallard's suggestions.  Just so you know, I usually do like his suggestions directed at me. 

I'm a nearly lifelong model railroader, having built in various scales.  I'm retired now and have a ready made room, the most space I have ever had; a spare room, 11' x 11'.  I wish I could make recommendations on designing a room/building from scratch.  Hopefully more people who have done it will chime in!

Thanks for the kind words.  You know more about layout building than you give yourself credit for, and you've accomplished a lot, especially considering the limitations of space and physical capabilities.  You've managed to run some large equipment and long trains in a small space.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Thanks for the kind words.  You know more about layout building than you give yourself credit for, and you've accomplished a lot, especially considering the limitations of space and physical capabilities.  You've managed to run some large equipment and long trains in a small space.

Thank you.  I was meaning I don’t know what power requirements to recommend, and I have never bought flooring, lighting, that kind of thing that he will need to consider.  

I will point out to build with the consideration that your body can give out sooner that you planned even when you took that into consideration.

Thanks Mallard....making a list of tips as i collect them....

@msp.

…..6.  The building if sold one day, would be great for tractors, ATV, fishing gear, workshop etc etc. if the next one did not have a train hobby.   So value would still be there if I never built a house.   Next guy would have  great home site with building to put whatever in.

7.  Still researching cost of the building - that will certainly play a factor in the whole plan.…

Bingo.  Exactly what I’m doing, make your building plan with that idea.  If you decide later to sell, it’s a marketable item to the property.    Examples-Tall building, at least one large garage door, 6” concrete in a section, (for tractor or RV-future owner may own one), 4” concrete if sectioned workshop, double door, windows, mezzanine (awesome for storage) & a nice porch is a plus.   HVAC is a given.  Locate convenient on your property.

Cost…it’ll shock you.  Go as big as you can, if you “cheap” out you’ll always want that extra 10-20 ft you don’t have.  Mine is 40 x 80 and I’m not saying cost, but it was twice originally planned…with myself doing a lot of work.  

Our layout is at my son's house in GA.  I live in OH.  I'd happily take 40 min.

All good suggestions above for when planning the room.  Ceiling: we used drop ceiling and track lighting - LOTS of lighting on several different switches. Will add dimmers after layout completed.  Power:  Ran 2 separate and dedicated 20 amp (12-2 wire) circuits around the room - alternating the wall plugs - circuit 1, 2, 1, 2 etc AND fed them thru 2 hvy duty 20amp wall switches so when we walk out of the room, we kill 2 wall switches and entire room (cept ceiling lights) is dead.  (Dont like floor plugs - Water leaks and floor plugs dont mix).   Floor:  Our floor was concrete. we put down hvy plastic vapor barrier then vinyl (lowes) scratch resistant snap-together flooring. We used brown to match the rest of the basement. A lighter color may be better for finding dropped parts. Scratch resistant doesnt mean scratch proof. Careful.   Layout planning:  There are several good layout planning programs available for reasonable price - scarm and rrtrack that i know of.  we used rrtrack

Layout:   whats your theme.   freight, passenger, city, rural, industrial,

Do u want long runs over as much diff track as possible, short runs, yards, servicing industries, passenger stations, etc

Plains, mtns, tunnels, over under, cities, towns, # of levels, # of main tracks. # of blocks, Legacy or DCS,

So much to consider.   

@86TA355SR posted:

Bingo.  Exactly what I’m doing, make your building plan with that idea.  If you decide later to sell, it’s a marketable item to the property.    Examples-Tall building, at least one large garage door, 6” concrete in a section, (for tractor or RV-future owner may own one), 4” concrete if sectioned workshop, double door, windows, mezzanine (awesome for storage) & a nice porch is a plus.   HVAC is a given.  Locate convenient on your property.

Cost…it’ll shock you.  Go as big as you can, if you “cheap” out you’ll always want that extra 10-20 ft you don’t have.  Mine is 40 x 80 and I’m not saying cost, but it was twice originally planned…with myself doing a lot of work.  

Yea I am fighting the cost now....already added 300 feet to my original plan - considering more....but....$$ do matter.  But you are right I don't want  to regret it later....

all good considerations....

@TomSuperO posted:

Our layout is at my son's house in GA.  I live in OH.  I'd happily take 40 min.

All good suggestions above for when planning the room.  Ceiling: we used drop ceiling and track lighting - LOTS of lighting on several different switches. Will add dimmers after layout completed.  Power:  Ran 2 separate and dedicated 20 amp (12-2 wire) circuits around the room - alternating the wall plugs - circuit 1, 2, 1, 2 etc AND fed them thru 2 hvy duty 20amp wall switches so when we walk out of the room, we kill 2 wall switches and entire room (cept ceiling lights) is dead.  (Dont like floor plugs - Water leaks and floor plugs dont mix).   Floor:  Our floor was concrete. we put down hvy plastic vapor barrier then vinyl (lowes) scratch resistant snap-together flooring. We used brown to match the rest of the basement. A lighter color may be better for finding dropped parts. Scratch resistant doesnt mean scratch proof. Careful.   Layout planning:  There are several good layout planning programs available for reasonable price - scarm and rrtrack that i know of.  we used rrtrack

Layout:   whats your theme.   freight, passenger, city, rural, industrial,

Do u want long runs over as much diff track as possible, short runs, yards, servicing industries, passenger stations, etc

Plains, mtns, tunnels, over under, cities, towns, # of levels, # of main tracks. # of blocks, Legacy or DCS,

So much to consider.   

I am looking at railmodeller expresss....once I get comfortable I wil get the PRO if I like it.

things I learned from the first time.

Want long double track main line with minimal switches so then the trains can go...

Large passenger yard/station Chicago esque..  

it will be a Modern layout...70's forward...lot of modern equipment.

container yard - maybe near a port

good size freight yard.

I have a habit of too much track....avoid the to crowded look.

no hard to reach switches...

just some initial thoughts.....

I like the idea of 1 or 2 switches turns off the entire room except lighting...

Nice.  Just throwing this out for your dbl main lines.  I offset the elevations of our side by side main lines. Very slight 1/4" or 3/8".  This gives an interesting visual perspective when looking at the layout. 

@TomSuperO posted:

Nice.  Just throwing this out for your dbl main lines.  I offset the elevations of our side by side main lines. Very slight 1/4" or 3/8".  This gives an interesting visual perspective when looking at the layout.

So this is definelty something I want to learn how to do better.  i have two levels lower level and upper level.   both are flat want to get more varied elevation look without it feeling forced.

So, around the room - which means obviously loops - single direction, some sort of swing door or lift out which I really didn't want - but like the look and feel of around the room.    OR......some sort of U shaped dog bone so there is no need for a swing door or lift out to get to the center.   Want to be able to reach all switches and critical areas...But this seems to take up so much room especially when consider minimum 96 curves so i can run 21" passenger cars.

Starting to pencil out some ideas and learning railmodeller....

Any thoughts on the trade off there?....I am leaning to something I don't have to have a swing door or lift out to get to....

@msp posted:

...Want long double track main line with minimal switches so then the trains can go...

Large passenger yard/station Chicago esque..  

it will be a Modern layout...70's forward...lot of modern equipment.

container yard - maybe near a port

good size freight yard.

I have a habit of too much track....avoid the to crowded look.

no hard to reach switches...

@msp posted:

So, around the room - which means obviously loops - single direction, some sort of swing door or lift out which I really didn't want - but like the look and feel of around the room.    OR......some sort of U shaped dog bone so there is no need for a swing door or lift out to get to the center.   Want to be able to reach all switches and critical areas...But this seems to take up so much room especially when consider minimum 96 curves so i can run 21" passenger cars...

These things all scream "around the walls" to me, perhaps with a peninsula into the middle of the room (sometimes called a mushroom).  You can avoid a swing gate or duckunder by having a return loop at each end of the layout with a gap between them for entering the room.

Here is my latest plan - for the propose room....like this one the best - what you think?

Just a rough draft subject to tweaking....

If you have never done this before, I would suggest you find a copy of the book by John Armstrong, 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation'.  I have harped on this, but, with your layout desires, it will be real easy to get overly complicated with a lot of redundant and questionable use track.  Even if you don't want to go to the extremes of realistic operation, the book will give you ideas on why real RR's put track down the way they did, the reason for why they are in business and what not to do, plus maximize your enjoyment, and minimize your total outlay.  Plus there are a lot of plans in there too, good for all scales, you just have to have the room for an O empire, or a ping pong table for a Z empire.

@msp posted:

Here is my latest plan - for the propose room....like this one the best - what you think?

Just a rough draft subject to tweaking....

Are the left, top, and right sides of the layout (as drawn) against a wall?  If so, you will probably have some reach issues.  If you have room to walk around the perimeter, then it looks like a good arrangement. 

@CALNNC posted:

If you have never done this before, I would suggest you find a copy of the book by John Armstrong, 'Track Planning for Realistic Operation'.  I have harped on this, but, with your layout desires, it will be real easy to get overly complicated with a lot of redundant and questionable use track.  Even if you don't want to go to the extremes of realistic operation, the book will give you ideas on why real RR's put track down the way they did, the reason for why they are in business and what not to do, plus maximize your enjoyment, and minimize your total outlay.  Plus there are a lot of plans in there too, good for all scales, you just have to have the room for an O empire, or a ping pong table for a Z empire.

good advice....I will find one.

I like the freight side - the passenger corner all the way around to the return to the middle....I think that is where there are some options to tweak the layout.  I have a couple other ideas in mind....