Looking for help with legacy issue

The only thing I can recommend other than that is to take the Legacy base only with a short test track, say just a circle of track.  Test it there and see if you can get any reaction.

My guess is it's still having a problem, but testing on a totally different track is something I like to do before I'm sure.

If that fails, send the base back to Lionel again.

thank you john I will try that

Should you still have trouble and need to send it back I'd recommend contacting them via email instead of the phone via "service/repair question" on this link http://www.lionel.com/ContactUs/  I believe  Mike and his crew read these, this way there will be no confusion regarding the repair.

thanks, that's good to know. When I spoke to customer service, I never felt they

understood, and they never let me get to a tech person. I wrote a letter explaining the problem, but I am not convinced it was really looked at

Email responses are usually same day if not the next day. I personally have had consecutive questions with answers on the same day.

I tried gunrunner John's suggestion and it appeared to work until I placed a tmcc engine on the small section of track. I'm getting continuous flickering in the

headlights with the legacy base attached. I think the problem is in the output

stage of the base. I will e-mail Lionel. I wish I could get a loaner and swap out.

It sounds like it's going to have to go back.  I'd actually talk to a tech before sending it, but if it doesn't run on a short track with nothing else connected, IMO it's broken.

Have you checked to make sure your ground pin on the Legacy power supply is making a good connection to ground? If that connection is broken or the pin is not making a good connection this could be the problem.

Ron

I had TMCC on my layout for several years and one day TMCC stopped working. After a lot of checking I found that the outlet I was plugged into was not grounded. How it worked for that long is still a mystery. I grounded the outlet and all is well ever since.

Jim D.

I am having exact same problem fatum.  Layout worked fine for years then I went to use it after a month of sitting and flickering lights became the norm after absolutely no changes to layout.   Unplug legacy and just use tmcc base and everything works great.  Legacy back to lionel twice, couldn't find anything wrong beside charging circuit which I don't use either.  I have tried using different outlet, different surge protector, more wires to common on track, and nothing changes.  Wish I had another legacy base to try but don't know of any local.  Any suggestions appreciated.

What exactly "appeared to work" until setting a tmcc engine on the track?

Niart and Fatum I still think you need to check the 120 volt ground pin to earth ground. When you sent the command base back did you send the power supply also? Without a good 120 volt earth ground the you only get half of the signal and as a result the receiver cannot detect the signal accurately.

Ron

I did not send power supply and am kicking myself now for not doing that.  Can lightning cause something to go bad in a house earth ground?  That is the only thing I can think of that has happened after my layout got the flickering light syndrome all of a sudden out of nowhere.  Was gonna take a peek inside power supply receptacle but it has some strange triangle screws.

Another thing I just learned is that if I hold a earth ground wire (copper water pipe in basement) right above loco flicker stops.  As soon as wire gets a foot or so above loco flicker returns.  What does that say???

The third wire, ground post, on the transformer AC plug is connected directly to the outside ring on the power connector that goes to the Legacy Base. You should measure near zero ohms when measuring resistance from the ground pin on the plug to the outside barrel on the power plug...probably will show around 0.3 or so ohms on your digital meter.

If that is true, then the power supply cube is not the problem. Making sure that your ground system on your house AC outlet is good would be a next step. There are inexpensive devices for sale at Lowe's, Menard's, etc. that you can check this with by simply plugging the device into the wall outlet and observing the indication on the device. They are about as big as a plug on an appliance cord. Good to have in any case to check critical areas such as bath, kitchen, outside, and garage outlets for ground integrity.

If that is all ok, then I would connect a spare wire to the AC ground of the house outlet and distribute it under the layout. You can attach this wire to pin #5 of the 9 pin connector of your Base, or using a small crimp on terminal, attach it to the screw holding the outlet cover onto the wall outlet. Be careful there near and around the wall outlet...goes without saying...but just sayin'. If you have copper plumbing, the house AC ground is likely connected to that somewhere. You can attach your under the layout ground wire to that if it is easier and is in fact grounded...and it sounds like it is.

If you had a lightning strike to your house or very near your house you may want to check your ground wire from the breaker/ fuse panel to the ground rod itself and especially the ground wire to rod connection. It may take some finding as it is generally buried somewhere near where your service enters the house. Do this after doing what cjack suggests.

Ron

I am relieved to hear that someone else is having the exact same problem. At least

I know I am not imagining this problem. I agree with niart, in that I wish I had acess

to another legacy unit to see how it responds. I have re-sent the unit back to Lionel

and I think they are going to replce the communication board. My home has two

eight foot ground rods about four feet apart, and I can freely see them. I will re-check

to verify the cadle is intact. We have a well so there is no continuous ground with

municipal plumbing. I guess my only continous common is with the electric supply to

the house from the grid. 

I realize that I should have given more information. My track power comes from a

postwar ZW and KW that are properly phased, however they do not have grounded

plugs. Should I run a wire from the chasis to the groung pin on the outlet? Would

I first need to verify if the chasis is now connected to the neutral or common side

of the outlet? The plugs are not polarized.

The lack of a grounded plug on the transformer means nothing, the ground is supplied through the Legacy base power supply.

Thank you for the clarification. I have checked my ground rod connections, and they

appear fine. I guess I will see what I happens when I get my legacy system back from

Lionel

The Legacy (and TMCC) use the ground wire system in your house as an antenna...and it radiates to the antenna in the engine. The sort of common side of the receiver is connected to the outside rail from the U connector on the Legacy Base. Calling the ground wire system a "ground something or other" has caused a lot of confusion. Many of us have an additional wire connected to the ground pin on the AC outlet and run it under the layout for a better signal. Actually the best place to get that connection is Pin #5 on the Legacy Base serial connector.

Any updates fatum?

FYI, I just fixed a new base that had these symptoms and it turned out to be a loose nut on the inside that attaches the circuit board to the U post output. The thing is that this might work for a day (as it did in this case) or a year before it becomes intermittent or doesn't work. The tab that is supposed to be fastened tightly to the post inside would probably touch an make contact until it oxidized or moved slightly and become intermittent or quit.

Mine was loose too.  Unfortunately I tightened it and nothing changed.  I had a chance to check my ground rod outside and everything is still attached. 

Why does the tmcc base perform fine while the legacy base is not doing its job?

Since the TMCC base works and the Legacy base doesn't work, I'd say it's quite possible that the Legacy base or power supply has a problem.

I'm presuming you're using the same outlet and connection to the track for each of the command bases when you test, right?

Using same outlet.  Have tried different outlets throughout house with and without surge protector with no change.

My transformer power is 3 180 bricks connected to lionel 34120 lockon breakers.

How many locos do you have and do all of them exhibit the same symptoms or just one? Have you cleaned the track?, the latest legacy locos are more sensitive to dirty track.

Yes,second nut was actually flopping around loose inside plastic housing of base.  Mine had phillips screws to take out bottom of base.  Put the tab out of circuit board between nuts and tightened gently.

How many locos do you have and do all of them exhibit the same symptoms or just one? Have you cleaned the track?, the latest legacy locos are more sensitive to dirty track.

Cleaned track per lionel suggestion and no change.  TMCC locos are much worse as they will stall and flicker bad.  Legacy locos will work fine but have occasional not so bad flickering lights and will just occasionally stall.

Ok, niart brought his Legacy base over this AM and we measured the 455 KHz output of the U terminal. Guess what...it was dc offset about 3 volts positive and only about 1 volt peak to peak instead of 6 volts PP with no dc offset that we measured on a working Legacy base.

It did run a Legacy engine and a TMCC engine, but another TMCC engine had the flickering headlight. Weak 455 KHz signal.

Lionel needs to measure the output of the U terminal when they are investigating a base that has issues with layout size and some engines and not others.

How did you measure the signal?  Is it really as easy as sticking a 'scope on it?  Sounds like a good thing to investigate if you're having issues.

I just clipped the probe of a Tek 2215 on the  U terminal. Since the scope is plugged into a grounded outlet, there didn't seem to be any place for the ground clip but the difference between it and a good base made it obvious as to what the issue was. I kind of suspected that before I saw the suspect base and did measure mine last night just to see what should be there, and measured them both this AM just to be sure and document the results. I wonder of course if this could be the answer to the problem some others have.

I'll have to do this test on my TMCC and Legacy bases, just out of curiosity.

My Legacy had similar issues as datum and niart. I wound up sending the unit to Lionel, and they replaced the communication board and fixed the charger function. I would suspect that yes ding back the unit for a repair will be what needs to happen. My Legacy was also two years old. The repair was free; I a only had to pay for shipping.

When returned, the Legacy worked perfectly. Good luck with yours, guys!

Bruce

Thankyou everyone for the constructive comments. My legacy unit is at Lionel now.

When I spoke to customer service before this latest return, I got the feeling that

the focus was going to be on the communication board. It is quite a relief to find

others who have had the same problem, and to know there IS a potential fix

out there. I will post when my unit comes back, with what I hope will be good news.

Just wanted to give a big thanks to cjack for his generous hospitality and all for letting me check my legacy on his very nice layout and finding that my legacy base has some issue.  Saves me from pulling my hair out even more trying to figure this problem out.   

I hope everyone who has commented on this problem reads what I have learned. I

received my legacy base and cab2 back from Lionel today and after re-installing

it to my layout, I am pleased to report that ALL functions are working correctly.

The tech person replaced the comminications board, and that did the trick. For anyone interested, the part number is 6914295002.  If you are having symtoms such as I did

this may help.

Good to get feedback, at least now I know what to measure if I have similar issues.