Metro North derailment

TV news coverage is showing 4 cars on the ground near the water but not in it. Rescue efforts underway

Now some pics are up. The derailment was just before the Spyten Dyvel station at 7:20am just after the switch to go over the swing bridge to go down the west side of Manhattan. 5 of 8 cars on the ground diesel pusher in the back. Crowded train. It does not look like cars went in the water. But still bad scene. Think good thoughts for thier safety.

New live shots show that the whole train derailed in some way. Huge damage to the tracks as well. So far fortunately, no fatalities, but there have been multiple injuries. 

from ABC, at least two dead.

 

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/national_world&id=9344864

Bad stuff.  I'll remember those folks in prayer at mass this morning.

Is this the line that goes through Mt Vernon / Fleetwood

Ugly.

 

 

No, those stations are on the Harlem Line, this happened on the Hudson line. The Harlem Line is running on time,,for now!

Four confirmed dead, a lot of injuries.  Operator is indicating there was a brake failure, aka he was applying breaks but the train wasn't slowing down.  North and south Metro North traffic as well as Amtrak shut down on the Hudson line.  It doesn't look like that commuter line  will be in service for tomorrow.

Thanks Steve

 

Really sad

 

I have family in Mt Vernon

We use that line all the time to run into the city---

always felt safe, always on time, very convenient

 

Nothing but good things to say about Metro-North

Thoughts and prayers to all

 

Joe S

Are those Metro-North's new train sets or the old ones they have been running for years?

My prayers to the families.

This looks to be push-pull operation.  Was the engineer in the cab car, the one closest to the water?  I wonder what the speed limit is for that curve.

Excerpt from FOX news - 

"... Donovan said a locomotive was pushing the train from behind, although the operating engineer who controlled the train was stationed in the front of the first passenger car... "

I was wondering - in the full-scale world of trains:

 

Are derailments more likely to occur if the locomotive is pushing instead of pulling a train, even relatively short passenger trains?

 

Are trains allowed to go faster around a curve when the locomotive is pulling and not pushing?

 

Thx!

 

Alex

Well, that's on my train line. My guess (and it's just that) is that the train must have been speeding. However, it may have been a switch problem just before that. That's a tight turn with a speed restriction. It's where the Hudson line splits and a single line (I think it's a single ljne) runs down the west side of Manhattan to Penn Station. Amtrak uses that line; Metro-North does not. The quadruple Hudson line narrows to 2 lines after that split for a very short area, then spreads out again. BTW, probably just a couple of hundred yards south of this derailment is where the freight train derailment occurred a few months ago. 

 

The train line itself is an old one. It's the old water line route from NYC to Chicago that the Hudson steam engines ran on 80 years ago. And it was used before that. It's been upgraded with concrete ties and you really don't feel any sway or tipping as you normally pass through that area.

 

The engineer would have been in the front car. It's a push pull operation with the motive power always being on the north end (the train was headed south).

 

I'm sure that the black box will tell us a lot.

 

Gerry

Track narrows to two lines to get through Marble Hill cut. Engineer said he was try to apply brakes.

The various arial views on the news channels show three tracks through the curve, that the train derailed on (actually the 'outside' track).

Good question. Hope the engineers here will enlighten us.

This makes me wonder about the safety of push-pull.  Try pushing a model train and you see quickly what can happen.

Wow this makes several in the last few weeks

1. this NY accident.

2 The philly area Amtrak

3 the Amtrak down south going to DC

4 The Tankers in the CLEAVLAND AREA.

5 Seems like one also down in OK somewhere?

From posts on Amtrak Unlimited, SubChat, and railroad.net, it appears the curve is:

 

--restricted to 30MPH

 

--lies at the end of a 70MPH segment alongside the Hudson (the train in question was an express and was running on the middle track)

 

--and the cab-signalling system only enforces maximum authorized speed. Permanent speed restrictions such as the curve in question are the domain of the engineer's knowledge of physical characteristics.

 

--Neither Amtrak's Empire Connection track or the location of the CSX derailment was involved in the incident area.

 

New York Daily news photographs of the accident scene

 

---PCJ

I doubt that "accidents" are ever going to be eliminated. We are imperfect creatures. I guess it depends on how much news coverage they get as to how "important" they seem.

 

The black box will tell a lot. And RailRide's information seems correct. It is at the end of a long straight away that comes down the Hudson. Designed for high speed trains. The faster we go, the worse the "accidents" will be. The laws of physics won't change.

 

Gerry

 

Railride, thanks for the link!

 

Those photos are very telling. It appears the train was on the center of three tracks (presumably the "express track"), and, per the laws of physics, everything derailed to the outside of the curve, including the pushing locomotive. It is fortunate that the lead cars didn't go into the Harlem River. I've ridden that line from Poughkeepsie several times, and I remember that area, both for the curve and for its name.

So true, we indeed are imperfect.

Push-Pull has been in use over 50 years.  An passenger cars have couplers with little slack action.  Only concern I have is a passenger train derailing in push mode, and the engine is still pushing.

Just concluded a newsbrief given by the ntsb. the straight before the curve was rated for 70 MPH. NtSb stated the train was going approx 82 MPH. at time of  derailment the  train was traveling approx 82 MPH in a 30 mPh rated curve.

 

6 seconds before the loco came to rest on its side at the beginning of the curve, there was a throttle setting to idle. Also 6 seconds b4 the loco came to rest there was zero brake pressure.

 

senator chucky shumer stated in the interview since the ntsb has stated the tracks were fine at time of crash and this train made 9 stops PRIOR to the accident occurance, there can only be two causes;

 

Either the train had a malfunction or there was human error involved. The engineers cell phone has been recovered and is going through forensics as well as onging interviews with the engineer.

But was the chain on two rail trackage?

WOW!  12MPH over the posted speed limit, prior to the 30MPH curve!!!!  Plus, there reportedly was a 50MPH restriction through the station just a few miles previous to this derailment location, which this train being an express, didn't NOT stop at. Something must have seriously gone wrong with the blended brakes & train line brakes on this train.

The problem with the malfunction theory is that the train was moving that fast. Failed brakes wouldn't make the train go 82 MPH, if the engineer noticed he was going too fast he could have set the controller to zero, while the train would not stop as if it had its brakes set, it would slow down due to friction and probably resistance from the traction motors (a motor at that point is basically a generator, and that has its own resistive force). It sounds to me from this report (and it is obviously limited) that the engineer may have been distracted, discovered he was going to fast and tried to dump the brakes, but it was too late. The recorders should give an idea, if the brakes failed there would be indications long before the train hit that curve. From what I know of the trainman's position, if the air brakes failed there are warning lights and gauges, so if they failed it would have been suddenly, but that doesn't explain why the train was going 82MPH into the curve.

While doubtful, loss of communication between the cab controls in the front and the locomotive in the rear would explain a lot.

 

Never heard of it before and I thought it was a failsafe thing; no comm=stop.

 

Beyond that I shall not speculate and wait for the NTSB.

bigkid....

 

 I thought I read somewhere that there's a long straight section going downhill before the train gets to that curve.   If so, momentum? 

My money is on texting, talking, or an otherwise inattentive operator.

Unless its was a rookie engineer or one who was unfamiliar with the run the engineer should know where all the curves and tangents are and speed through them.  Just like us driving to work know where the cross streets and traffic lights are, thus know when to slow down or anticipate traffic congestion etc.. My two cents is texting/talking or something outside window (a rock thrower?) distracted attention.

For all of us train crew employees in this country....I really hope it wasn't and electronic device issue.  Equipment failure?? I highly doubt it from what they have released from the event recorder.

There is no appreciable grade on this part of the railroad. From Ludlow, west/north of Milepost 14, through Riverdale to just west/north of MP 12, it is level track. From here for the very short distance to CP 12 at MP 11.8, there is a minimal .01% downgrade for east/southbound trains so "downhill momentum" as mentioned above was not a factor here. My information comes directly from Metro-North's Maintenance Program, Track Charts, Interlocking Diagrams and Yard Diagrams so it's accurate.   

 

Lost in the hysteria following the most recent NTSB briefing was the statement that a train speed of approximately 60MPH within the 70MPH area had been recorded at one point. This indicates the Engineer operated his train in compliance with a 60MPH speed restriction which is currently in place east/north of the derailment site. Something went very wrong after that. The Engineer, Conductor and Trainmen are all regular crew on the Hudson Line so this was not a "rookie engineer", again to quote an above post. Based upon what we know but mostly upon what we don't, may I suggest we let the investigators conduct their studies and I'm sure they'll share their findings with us at the appropriate time. There are many factors which come into play in a situation such as this.

 

Please forgive me if I come across as sensitive about this but I'm a lifelong industry professional who started as a college intern in operations plus I have family and close friends who work for Metro-North and other railroads and the rush to judgment by the media and others who have no clue as to the subject matter is somewhat infuriating. Please don't try to place blame until we know where and to whom - if anybody - it should be directed. Heck, I just read the media is camped out on the Engineer's front lawn. Trust me, after what happened yesterday, NONE of us want to be him right now.

 

Let everything play out and let's see where we go from here. One thing's for certain: Metro-North hasn't had a good year.

 

Bob          

When I was a kid, NYC changed from steam to electric (outside 3rd rail) at Harmon, to avoid smoke in the NYC tunnels.  I see this train was pushed by a diesel. I can't tell from the photos if there is a 3rd rail here.  But I'm curious, does Metro North run diesels through the tunnels and into Grand Central?

I analyzed a lot of event recorder data during my railroad career, and, if I correctly understand you to mean that the brake pipe dropped to zero 6 seconds before the locomotive turned over, the reason those two events would happen at the same second is this: Whenever there is an emergency brake application, the Pneumatic Control Switch (commonly called the PC Switch) opens and makes the locomotive immediately go to Idle.

 

If this event recorder is sufficiently sophisticated (and there are likely two - one on the cab car and another on the locomotive) it will be able to show whether the brakes went to emergency because of derailment breaking an air hose connection, or whether emergency braking resulted from the brake valve being moved to Emergency position.

 

Contemporary event recorders record the CCB brake valve position as well as the PC Switch and brake pipe pressure  They can detect the fractional second difference if the application is initiated by the brake valve.  If, however older event recording equipment is in use, then it may not be able to provide that evidence.

 

They will come up with enough evidence to determine the cause, but that will not bring four human beings back to life.  Very sad day.

The locomotive is a dual mode GE P32AC-DM equipped with third rail pick up equipment for electric operation through the Park Avenue Tunnel into GCT. The changeover from diesel to electric mode eastbound and electric to diesel mode westbound usually takes place at about 125th Street.

 

Bob   

Tom (Number 90):

 

As you surmised, there were indeed event recorders on both the cab car and the locomotive.

 

Bob