Metro North derailment

Jail time . . . really, David? . . . for an Engineer with a long record of good service and a possible (remember, we still do not know for sure) lapse of alertness at a critical moment?

 

This is not a crime.  

 

The worst it could be is a violation of Federal regulations and railroad operating rules, with a very bad outcome. Dismissal, yes, that is the standard railroad discipline for something like this, if the Engineer actually did cause it.  Even so, after a year it would not be unreasonable to reinstate the Engineer based on his previous record.  You should read CFR Part 49 and see what the Federal penalties for violation of speed restrictions are before publicly suggesting that they should send the Engineer off to jail, where they keep real criminals who commit crimes in jail as well as out.

Jon:

 

I'm familiar with the territory but I've chosen to avoid further participation on this thread due to the incredibly callous and pompous nature of postings from two specific individuals. Please refer to my first post which I hope will answer some of your questions regarding the physical characteristics of the railroad in the area of the accident.

 

Bob   

Back to work in a year doing the same thing??? Really? In today's  litigious society?? 

How could he, if responsible, ever get insured or bonded again?? The process I had to go through to get insured and bonded as a bank analyst was tough....after an accident....I can't imagine a company taking the risk again.....but maybe different in the transportation industry.

Jail time?  I'm sure that will serve as a lesson to people to stay awake!  BS!  This guy will get terrible punishment, just remembering that day.

 

BUT, given that the Governor is politically minded and may have eyes on higher office, he'll probably lean on an ambitious DA to prosecute for involuntary homicide, just to get press.

 

I suspect that barreling along at high speed, with ties whizzing past right under your nose, one can get vertigo.  This did happen in the early 60's aboard a type of helicopter--the flickering blade overhead induced it.

Why do you think that railroad Engineers are "insured or bonded"?

Every industry I have worked in I was....If I was around lots of cash or trusted with expensive equipment........AND why I asked if transportation industry was different???? Is it???? Answer with a question is little help.

Since you NEVER worked in the railroad industry, you simply made an assumption. Neither railroad Engineers nor Conductors handle "cash", thus are NOT bonded nor insured (except for their own company provided personal/family medical insurance). Engineers are, however, certified by the FRA.

I was a locomotive engineer at one time......on passenger trains.....and I was insured. (but who am I to talk assumptions!) I asked because this was a theme park ride....much different than public transportation.

But in my years in banking I never did any work with railroads (although our company was one of the largest RR leasing companies) but hard to imagine NO ONE has insurance in the industry.  Thanks for the info.

 

CASH is one of MANY reasons people are bonded and/or insured. I never saw a single dollar bill.....but I had access to every account in the company.....asset access/control of any kind is a reason.

David,

This is at least the second time you have made such a comment. I'm not going searching for more. There is an old saying that I learned holds very true. It works without anyone having to do anything but sit back, relax and be patient. The key words there are "It works" and amazingly well. That old saying is...

 

WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND.

 

Be careful of what you wish for.

 

Just for the record, somewhere above it was mentioned that the curve in which the

derailment occurred was "where the NYC Hudsons ran" (rough quote) is not true.

 

This area is south of Harmon, where the steamers (and diesels, originally) handed over

the trains such as the 20th Century and the ESE to electrics for the trip to Grand

Central Terminal (not "Station..."). 

 

It was, indeed, part of the Hudson River line, as contrasted with the NYC West Shore line,

which was primarily freight and commuters. 

I saw a news report this evening that the engineer had spent most of his previous years on a 2pm to midnight shift, had only been recently transferred to the 5am to 2pm shift and this was only his 2nd time starting so early in the morning. His body wasn't yet used to the hours and I can understand how the change may have adversely affected his ability to concentrate on what he was supposed to be doing.

I feel bad for the victims and their families and unless further investigation reveals some kind of drug induced "zoning out" I likewise feel bad for the engineer. His career with the railroad is obviously over.

On a side-note, while I noticed that Gov. Cuomo has been front and center on all the news feeds I have been wondering where Sen. Schumer has been. He's usually the first one to try to get his mug on TV and lo and behold, he's weaseled his way into the coverage I saw on this evening's news. People in the NY area know what I'm talking about. This guy is the lowest of the low.

It has been said MANY times that, one of the MOST dangerous places on Earth is, standing between Sen. Schumer and ANY TV camera!

You know outside the beltway we the people think he deserves a lot of credit.....for single mouthly causing Gloable warming with all the elevated temp air that seems to flow.

Seems to me that we should all be worried about the families of the injured and dead above all else. 

Let's keep politics out of this discussion or risk seeing the entire thread disappear!

 

Just one brief reminder!

Nothing good ever happens at Spuyten Duyvil. I believe the Dutch translation is 'The spite of the devil." Treacherous place, for railroading, boating and surely swimming. My father spent many years in that area as a member of the NYPD. I can't tell you how many times he came home depressed after 'fishing out' kids who would boat and/or swim in that swirling water where the Hudson meets the Harlem River. Dopey kids would dive in as if they were in Alcapulco. 

Wow.  This thread has been a real eye opener in human nature feelings and opinions.

"Spitting" or "spouting" devil, are a couple other translations, but your point is taken. I volunteered for 20 years with the NYPD in emergency services (heavy rescue) out of the 5th Div (Manhattan) and saw lots of bad stuff there, too.  Whirlpools like you would never believe. Beautiful, but treacherous.

 

On a railroad note, I used to walk from my apartment on 105th Street and Riverside over to the (then) freight only tracks which ran in a tunnel along the river, scoot down the embankments to the edge of the Henry Hudson Parkway, and walk all the way up and across the swing bridge. This was in the late 1970's. Then in 1980 or so the trackage was abandoned and the bridge was left in the open position.  Lots of us foamers always said that "they" should use the ROW for passenger trains to NY Penn. Years later, they took our advice, but that service started after I had moved away from the city.

If I recall correctly the hypnotizing effect of the ties on the engineers was one reason why EMC went from a boxcab design to cab design on the E units.

 

Stuart

 

We are approaching the longest night of the year.  All things about the sun, like number of hours the sun is up, and the angle the sun is in the sky makes a big difference on the human body.   I would think the effect would be worse as one goes father north this time of year.

Insured and bonded....NO! Both conductors and engineers are FRA certified now, and all crew members are jointly responsible....so don't say the engineer should go to jail. What was the conductor doing? He didn't know where they were or how fast they were going?

For those who are not in the industry, or have no clue the lifestyle it involves.... I would invite you to come ride along with a train service employee for a month....even a week!
Then make those statements as to what you think the engineer deserves, or the conductor.

I assure you, the job is not what you think, and sometimes....staying awake is the toughest part of our job!

lets all not jump the gun untill all the facts are out...On Fox news they taked to a train guy in the UK..they had alot of bad accidents..now they have track sencers to tell the train to slow down....but I think they better redo the track sharp curve..make it one wide curve..

Talk about jump the gun! Making that curve wider is NOT an option they would even consider!  

Prays go out to the families and the 4 souls who lost their lives.  In the end all else from this terrible tragedy doesn't really matter.

It is times like this that really shows the ignorance of the general public what it takes to be a Locomotive Engineer. Most people who only work the daylight shift have no understanding of Sleep DeprIvation and how it affects ones alertness and ability to function normally. As was stated by another Locomotive Engineer here you can have 12 hours of sleep and just prior to daylight it can become almost impossible for some folks to function in a fully alert state of mind. We have been programmed by years of evolution to be asleep at this time of the morning. I have spent many mornings with my head out the locomotive window trying to combat the urge to fall asleep at 4:00 or 5:00am. Fully alert and well rested until the sun would just start to lighten the Eastern sky. Then Bang, it hits you. The urge to fall asleep can happen in seconds. Conrail had extensive studies on Sleep Deprivation and this time of the morning always came back as the worst time of day to feel the effects of it.

To back up laidoffsick: just look at google maps--- there is NO WAY that that curve could be made wider-- there are buildings right up against the railroad ROW. Also, the Spuyten Dyvil station is at the end of the curve--- and there isn't enough room to move that either. It's a very tight curve--

Bank the tracks or Super-Elevate the tracks could be an option.

Electronic speed regulation should be possible.

 

Andrew

Simple solution:  Two operators in the cab…same as commercial aviation.

 

Won't happen, of course, because all the top people care about is the bottom line.

Two people per train is just not enough........how can they not justify an engineer and 'brakeman or fireman' whatever you want to call them. Some old fashion ways ARE better.....

 

PS ...this AM the Engineer has admitted he 'zoned out' .....PC for fell asleep basically...

I've been following this very interesting thread and am curious about the change in speed requirement for the 70mph stretch down to 30mph for the curve.  Does anyone know about how far (distance) one would have to start decelerating from 70mph to 30 mph and what that distance would translate to in time?  I am also a bit curious about the allowable (normal conditions) deceleration rate for passenger vs freight trains.

 

Thanks.

 

Steve

Alan, should all bus drivers have someone ride shotgun with them too? Surely they are also capable of nodding off.  I only wish government agencies like the MTA cared about the evil 'bottom line.' It seems they only really care about the top line....how much money they bring in. Profit plays no role, and we pay through the nose in taxes, fares and now insurance claims. 

There have been a number of SERIOUS passenger accidents over the last many decades where additional people in the cab ACTUALLY DISTRACTED THE OPERATOR!

 

Passenger carrying commuter rail operations have been running in the U.S. for, what…….50 to 80 YEARS with only one operator. The U.S. has one of the most accident free, and fatality free, commuter rail operations in the world. All with one person operators! 

 

Besides, most of the commuter rail cab cars do not have room for a second person anyway.

Okay...alternate solution:  Eliminate the human element and mechanize the entire system so the train would only need one person (conductor).  Obviously the technology is there, and has been for years. 

 

I will be interested in seeing the results of the reconstructed timeline the NTSB is putting together to account for that engineer's off time (which, by all accounts, was quite adequate).

 

Again, though, the number crunchers will have no part of that alternate solution I propose, and the unions would have a hissy-fit.

It's not like two pilots can't fall asleep in an aircraft.

 

Rusty

Of course, but that's an aberration, not anywhere near the norm.  As long as humans are involved, there WILL be accidents...some very horrific and some much less so in terms of the loss of life, injuries, or property damage.

 

As I recall, there were four killed in this latest train accident (along with numerous injuries).  We lose many, many more in car accidents all over the nation on just about a daily basis, often with five or more killed in a single vehicle.

You might note that original news reports listed the engineers record as "impeccable". Everyone can have a bad day, unfortunately.  IMO, our society requires 100% all the time.   

I'll say it again: The Engineer did not commit a crime, and does not belong in jail, where he can be raped and stabbed.

 

There is no evidence of negligence on his part.  He was not using drugs or alcohol, apparently was not using electronic devices, etc.

 

So why don't all you who are crying for him to go to jail stand up.  Now, of those standing, if you have ever been distracted while driving your car, be seated.  Nobody left standing.  Well, well, well.

From conversations on other boards, it appears that additional super-elevation isn't practical owing to the freight trains that use the line.

Some EMU's are capable of impressive braking. By that I mean rapid-transit equipment. While riding a thru-express subway in the Bronx a day or so ago, I watched my train slow from almost 40MPH to 16 in slightly more than ten seconds in response to timed signals guarding a sharp curve. (to see the area in question, plug "freeman street and southern boulevard bronx" into Google Maps satellite view--the braking started and ended within the space occupied by the train visible on the middle track that just passed the station)

 

Now, I wouldn't expect a commuter train (even an electric one) to match that performance, but it's probably on par with any other locomotive-hauled passenger train, and definitely better than a freight train (see Number 90's story on the previous page). Of, you can view this video to see an example of a freight train in emergency (the best example I know of)

 

---PCJ

Given the similarities, does anyone know the findings on the derailment that took place in Europe (France?) a while back?

If you're referring to the wreck I think you're referring to, that would be the one that happened in Spain, the similarities are basically no speed restriction enforcement at the curve in question--only signal indication. Of note is that Metro-North's sister agency LIRR, does have speed enforcement for permanent speed restrictions, from what I'm reading on NYC-centric railfan boards.

 

In the Spanish derailment, there was speed enforcement up to about a couple of miles from where it transitioned to a conventional line--right at the sharp curve. In the aftermath, the railroad installed additional transponders at the end of the high-speed segment to enforce speed reductions in that area. Prior to that, the system relied on the engineer knowing where he was and slowing accordingly, just like Metro-North.

---PCJ