Metro North derailment

In a strange way I hope some mechanical issue caused this accident. For if it was because of texting or talking.....God help the person responsible.  I know my kids have a hard time NOT texting all the time. We made Thanksgiving a mobile device free event and after it was over.....we all realized how nice it was to not have them.

Bob, presumably the facts will come out. Just remember that one rotten apple doesn't spoil the entire barrel and railroad professionals shouldn't be judged on one action. as for the news organizations -- IMO, more like entertainment light, with no class.

Having said that, I suspect Allan is correct.

Gerry

This mornings paper stated the operator had extensive experience and had an exceptional work record. While you have every right to your opinion, to voice such a statement on an internet Forum at this time with no basis to back it up is just wrong. Because of your posting officially as your position as Editor in Chief, there are a lot of folks out there that could assume that you had some inside knowledge due to your vast train experience, and once out there on the internet you can't take it back. So the engineer who may be in the wrong, but just as likely could be a victim himself gets tagged as a killer due to negligence. Tsk tsk.

Pray for the dead and injured and their families in what should be a joyful Holiday Season.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/new...traveling-82mph.html

Uhh...Mr. (VaGolfer) Strickland.  If you've been paying any attention to the various reports from investigators this morning, you'll see that I was pretty much right on target.

Looks like fatigue from this recent REPORT. 

Jon

quote:

Uhh...Mr. (VaGolfer) Strickland.  If you've been paying any attention to the various reports from investigators this morning, you'll see that I was pretty much right on target.

Sorry Allan, I am with VaGolfer on this one. I think it would have been better to wait for the investigation, rather than just blame the engineer.

IMHO, your comment was only marginally correct, being that you specifically mentioned only texting and talking:

quote:

My money is on texting, talking, or an otherwise inattentive operator.

The reports are currently leaning heavily towards dozing and fatigue, which I guess would be covered by "otherwise inattentive operator".

Over the years I've read that boredom and fatigue is a problem for airline pilots and railroad engineers, and occasionally even truck drivers.

As bad as it is, it's very fortunate that it derailed before going into the water. I imagine the death toll would have been much higher had it gone into the river

I agree Chris, thank the good Lord for that. My prayers go out to the families of all the dead and injured as they deal with this horrible accident. Also prayers for the engineer and his family, from the reports I read this morning he seems like a good man, an exemplary engineer and has co-operated in a forthright and honest manner with the authorities. It may turn out like he is guilty of only one thing, and that is only being human with all the frailties that brings.

Thanks for the link Jon, what do you know there still are press people out there that can report a story in a fair and impartial tone.

MANHATTAN — Investigators believe the motorman at the controls in the deadly Metro-North Railroad derailment in the Bronx Sunday dozed off for a few fateful moments and woke up too late to stop the speeding train from hurtling off the tracks, DNAinfo New York has learned.

Veteran engineer William Rockefeller all but admitted he was falling asleep as the train came roaring to a curved section of track north of Spuyten Duyvil in statements made shortly after four people were killed and dozens were injured in the wreck, sources said.

He apparently woke up just as the train, traveling at 82 mph, was heading into a precarious curve that called for the train's speed to be reduced to just 30 mph.

As the train entered the curve, sources said, Rockefeller was jolted from his sleep and hit the brake, but not in time. The cars derailed, and several careened onto their sides before grinding to a halt on the edge of the Harlem River. Four people were killed, three of whom were thrown out of the cars, and more than 60 others were injured.

Rockefeller, 46, has been an engineer for roughly 11 years and a Metro-North employee for 20 years, and has an unblemished record.

Sources said he took a drug and alcohol test, and they do not believe either was a factor in the crash.

They declined to provide details of Rockefeller’s statements, which were given within minutes of the disaster, when paramedics and investigators arrived at the scene to offer assistance and try to learn what happened.

Prosecutors subpoenaed Rockefeller’s cellphone, but sources said they do not believe he was using it at the time of the tragedy.

Instead, sources said he virtually admitted that he fell asleep as the train roared through a straight, 70 mph zone, heading toward one of the sharpest curves on the 75-mile trip that started at 5:54 a.m. in Poughkeepsie, bound for New York City.

They believe the rumbling of the train roaring through the head of the curve awakened Rockefeller and he hit the brake immediately.

National Transportation Safety Board member Earl Weener said at a press conference Monday the brakes were engaged, but “very late in the game” — only six seconds before the crash. And he would only say it was unclear if the speed was the result of human error or faulty equipment.

Sources could not immediately explain why Rockefeller became fatigued as he neared Spuyten Duyvil. They said they had no initial reason to believe he had been overworked or was out late the night before.

Rockefeller was among those released from the hospital Monday. He remained in seclusion as the crippled trains were being righted and placed back onto the tracks, which were also being repaired Monday.

Union officials said Rockefeller was thoroughly traumatized by the tragedy and was cooperating fully with investigators.

Friends and colleagues described him as a sincere, hardworking man who was always serious and responsible about his job.

The NTSB has been urging railroads for decades to install technology that can stop wrecks caused by excessive speed or other problems, including those that can automatically slow trains through curves. Metro-North has been trying to make the costly purchase and install the equipment.

The NTSB did say that the Engineer has a - I can't remember if the word was "clear" or "spotless" - record for eleven years.  That said, he does deserve the benefit of the doubt.  Even an extremely conscientious employee who is very compliant with rules and policies can have a bad day, and something which has never before happened can happen.

If you are running on a curvy line alongside a river, even a doze or distraction of a few seconds can put you pretty close to a curve when you re-focus.  Any other distraction in the cab can cause you to cover a lot of ground before you re-focus your attention.  I remember once on No.4, I passed a yellow over green signal at Hodge, making 79 MPH and not requiring any speed reduction until passing the next signal, two miles further.  Barstow Yard called on the radio and asked what time we would be there and I calculated it and answered him.  Then Barstow started talking to a train trying to get in the clear for us, and I listened so I could try to make a graceful entrance without having to stop and start for the freight train.  When we came around the curve approaching Lenwood 1 minute and 15 seconds after passing the approach signal, shining at us was a red over green signal and a 50 MPH crossover.  I had started focusing on our arrival at Barstow and completely forgot about the yellow over green at Hodge. So I immediately made a full service reduction and hit the crossover 15 seconds later, at exactly 50 MPH, benefiting from good luck, not skill and prudence.  If that had been a freight train, I would have hit the crossover faster (probably over 60) and only really good luck would have kept us out of the headlines, and maybe also out of the hospital or the graveyard.

It does not take much.

Unfortunately the report looks like it was preventable human error was the cause. Weather it was talking, texting or falling asleep it falls onto one person.

As a holder of professional CDL at one time and a person who drove school bus for two years....I understand the responsibility required in such a position.  I was 19 years old and my not have fully understood the full extent of the job.....but I did look into those parents eyes everyday as they turned their kids over to me.....and it made me want to give 110% at all times. Same holds true for all in this type position.  

Prayers to all involved......

The FRA and NTSB will REALLY be forcing the issue of PTC as a result of this mess. At the very least, speed control/cab signal system where train speed is part of the control system. Had a system like what the Long Island Railroad has been in use on the subject line, the alarm bell, and then automatic power reduction & full service brake application would have occurred the minute the Engineer exceeded the speed limit of 75MPH, quite a bit prior to the 30MPH curve.

I'll bet, once the air clears on the cause of this wreck, all operators of trains, planes, buses, etc., will now have an extra cup of coffee before their shift begins.

ignore

That really has very little to do with anything! Many, many "sleep" studies have been conducted by the FRA and AAR, over the last 20 to 30 years, and the single most glaring item consistently arrises about what the affect that the rising sun has on the human brain/body.   An Engineer could have had 12 solid hours of really deep sleep, then be called to work for a 4AM train, and when the sun begins to rise at early dawn (regardless of actual time on the clock), the mind & body consistently react very strangely!

I'm sure every professional rail on this Four knows EXACTLY what I'm referring to!

We all make mistakes, it is just that some people pay more harshly for theirs.

I saw a comment that this train being an express train was using the middle set of tracks.If it had been on the outside set of tracks that might have put the cars close enough to hit the water. WOW

Do we have any regular commuters on the Hudson line, or folks here who know the territory? 

From what I understand, the train was doing 82.  The 30mph speed restriction was ahead of and through the curve.  But before that there was a 70 tangent, and before that a 72 tangent.

So (and forgive me if this is wrong) the train was doing 82 in a 72, 82 in a 70, and then 82 in a 30.  That was more than a momentary slip, was it not?

Jon

Is there a reason as to why trains don't have seat belts? Maybe they do have them today because its been a couple of years since I was on a train.

Since cars and planes have seat belts seems like trains would also especially if they are going to travel at these kinds of speeds.

Wonder if the very high speed trains in the far east an across the big pond have seat belts on them?? Any know???

If it is true he fell asleep or dozed off for any reason then jail time is in order plus fired from his job. 

It'd be news to me if any of them had them. As far as I know, none of them do.

 Automobiles don't have guideways or enforcement of proper spacing at speed (or a predictable level of training/competence of thier operators), and airplanes are subject to turbulence that can concievably toss people out of their seats. Passenger trains aren't subject to either of those. Most proper high-speed passenger railways do not have "issues" like MNR's lack of automatic speed enforcement for permanent speed restrictions.

---PCJ

Umm, first of all, Allen is editor of OGRR magazine, for toy train enthusiasts, he isn't an industry expert, he doesn't work for the NTSB so his opinion is simply that of an interested bystander, and it is a bit ludicrous to sit back and say that Allen or anyone expressing his opinion will get the engineer branded a killer, even if NTSB absolves the engineer.With all due respect to Allen, I take postings on here as they are given, they are people speculating as to the possible cause based on what they have read and seen, it is an opinion that is simply that, an opinion.

falling asleep may be the cause

If the guy fell asleep ...having to live with that know that people lost lives because I fell asleep seems like it would be a terrable thing to carry around with you each....worse than jail time...

OK, silly question here but IF the engineer is at fault, what happens to the conductor who still is in the hospital with a severe broken leg? Because of her job duties & description, she is responsible for the train at that time. Is she sent under the guillotine as well as far as her job is concerned?

That was somewhat covered this AM on a news report. The public doesn't want belts or want to use them on trains and buses. Also these trains have a crew of two......with more to do now than they can handle.....seat belt monitor is not job one.

If it was fatigue, then the operator is still responsible, though obviously the degree of liability is probably much less then if he had been texting or was found to have been drinking/on drugs or the like. Obviously, most of us have experienced times driving where we start to nod off or otherwise lose attention, and the reality is that an early morning run like that is probably one of the more dangerous times for something like this happen, as a late night one might be for some. I suspect if he nodded off it prob wasn't that quick, assuming he was obeying the posted speed limit of 60mph and then nodded off, it would take a while to build to that kind of speed.

All around, it is a tragic accident, and while if in fact the engineer nodded off it is his responsibility, it is a tragedy all around. The MTA is also going to bear some of it, for not having safety systems in place that could stop a train going too fast or blowing by a signal, like they have on the subway system. The fact that MTA is planning to install such gear is going to make it hard to defend this one, even though I believe they are doing so because of federal regulations.

I feel sorry for the victims of the crash, their families, and to the family of the engineer and yes, to him as well. He made a human mistake if in fact he fell asleep, and unfortunately is going to pay for it, both in official penalties but also in his own conscience as well, and that is going to be the harder of the two if the description of him is accurate. If he was drunk or stoned, or texting, I wouldn't feel sympathetic, but this sounds like a very human limitation/frailty.

In all my trips in Japan (20+) I do not remember the Shinkensen's having seat belts, but that could be also that I was not in the Green Car Section (First Class) just a reserved seat.

Respectfully: are you really sure about that David? At first, I would be inclined to agree with you but with cost cutting measures being what they are these days who knows what kind of schedule he was subjected to by the company. Certainly his career is over. And the mental pain he will have to endure is worse than any jail time.

Dave thanks for the reply. I know when seat belts were first made mandatory I was not a big fan. Now I will not move the car until everyone is hooked up.

Maybe the train seat belts should be optional ??

Thank you, I was wondering what was done on the high speed rails also.

Just seems like where you have human life we have gone some extra miles to save lives. Maybe trains is an area to look more closely at with so many people riding them these days.

One thing you have to remember about commuter and other mass transit trains is that they are designed to have passenger standing.   The Bay Area Rapid Transit (BART) trains are removing seats so that they can get more standing people into them.  BART trains routinely run at 70 mph between stations.  Seat belts are useless for standing passengers.  

I have ridden Metro-North and Amtrak trains with standing passengers many times.  

Joe

 If everyone will look at the NTSB comments that neither human error or mechanical failure has been determined yet.

 And I don't fill the New York Gov. should make a comment on the matter yet. Those comments are to be determined and officially made by those that are certified and qualified to do so.And that being those that are directly involved with the accident: management of the railroad,the FRA and the NTSB.

 I'm sure they all will look into fatigue,rule G and other factors .But that's up to the experts to decide how and with what methods they will conduct their investigation.

Accountability is everything, it is his job to be ready for work no mater what time of day you work. Because of his lack of judgement 4 people died and many injured. 

Yes, he should go to jail if found guilt, I know it is tough but life is tough. 

Time and steady hands will lead to better answers.

 Please , let's not judge the man until that facts are out .

 I've worked for over 20 years now as an Engineer and understand the problems of fatigue. It's hard enough with any job getting proper sleep to preform at your best.

 It's an unexplainable situation about being on a locomotive and having the  sounds ,vibrations and I think fumes that makes for a combination that one has to experience for themselves to understand what I'm talking about.

hey david you are a cold hearted person don't you think the mental anguish is enough on a mans sloe that he will now live with the deaths of those people for the rest of his life 

PTC would not have prevented this unless the train was getting too close to a red signal. It is not a speed control system, and is only designed to prevent a train from running beyond the point where its authority to use the main track ends.

What does LIRR use?  Cab signals?  Cab signal systems are speed control systems as they react if the maximum authorized speed for the cab signal indication in effect at that time is exceeded.  But it is not a permanent curve speed restriction enforcement system.  There isn't one, as far as I know.  Santa Fe required every passenger locomotive in every territory to be equipped with operative ARS.  In places where there was a permanent speed reduction of 30 MPH or greater (such as 90 MPH down to 60 MPH) there was an inert ATS shoe next to the speed sign in advance of the curve.  This required acknowledgment, but still left the actual reduction of speed up to the Engineer.

You just can't protect against every possible circumstance.