Metro North derailment

If the engineer zoned-out, was a sleep at the switch does the track really matter?

Originally Posted by RailRide:

...I watched my train slow from almost 40MPH to 16 in slightly more than ten seconds in response to timed signals guarding a sharp curve. (to see the area in question, plug "freeman street and southern boulevard bronx" into Google Maps satellite view--the braking started and ended within the space occupied by the train visible on the middle track that just passed the station)...

PCJ, thanks. Although it hasn't been discussed here I don't think many people are aware of the kinetic energy in a train moving at 80 mph and the force and time it takes to slow it down.

 

Scott

At the very least, until an operator becomes used to a new work schedule there should be two in the cab. I believe it's called "Circadian Rhythm", a biological clock we all have that regulates our internal processes including sleep. Some people are more susceptible to a change in schedule than others.

 

As long as it can be proven that drugs aren't involved the engineer is innocent until proven guilty however admittedly, if I were an injured victim or a relative of one of the people killed, I would want the guy's head. The NTSB will take their time, figure this out and make recommendations. Unfortunately, the politicians will have their say and hopefully won't get in the way.

While not railroad related and not in NYS, the PA court system DID recently uphold the conviction of a trucker who was lawfully rested but "blacked out or fell asleep for unknown reasons" and had an accident which resulted in a fatality:

 

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-...r-court/1623766.html

 

The courts held that he should have known he was unsafe to operate a motor vehicle.

 

 

Principal among the stipulated facts submitted for trial was that Appellant had fallen asleep or blacked out for unknown reasons at the time of the accident. Following jurisprudence, see infra, that criminal responsibility may flow from a driver's deadly disregard of familiar physical warning signs of imminent sleep, the trial court found that Appellant recklessly continued to drive his tractor-trailer on the high speed interstate with indifference to human life. Accordingly, the court entered a verdict of guilty on all charges and sentenced him to two to four years' incarceration, followed by three years' probation on the charge of Homicide by Vehicle.¹

From the NY Times today ......

 

The crash has also attracted the attention of the Federal Railroad Administration, which said in a letter to the transportation authority that it had “serious concerns” about the authority’s recent safety record.       

 

A spokeswoman for the authority, Marjorie Anders, said some trains on Metro-North included “alerter” systems that can sound an alarm if inactivity is detected. If an engineer does not respond by pushing a button within 15 seconds, she said, the brakes are applied. She said the train that derailed had no such system.       

 

The front car, where Mr. Rockefeller was positioned, had a “dead man’s pedal” on the floor. Pressure must be applied to avoid automatic braking.       

 

Officials have said that the brakes were not fully applied until five seconds before the locomotive, in the rear of the train, came to a stop.

 

Interesting that the Metro North Transit Agency is still using such old technology as a "dead man's pedal" instead of the current "high tech" electric alertness devices, which require the operator to make & break skin contact every so many seconds depending on train speed.

 

I remember that there was a case in the "early days" when an Engineer actually died in his seat, and his foot did NOT come off the "dead man's pedal"! Besides, all one had to do was put a break shoe on the pedal, or wedge a track spike into the pedal hinge point, anyway. 

Ihear a report that the head of the union who had talked to the driver of the train and reported he told him that he the driver had nodded off. The National Safety GROUP LOOKING INTO THE ACCIDENT HAS KICKED THE UNION OFF THE TEAM for a breach of confidentlity. Saying nothing was to re reported from any of the team looking into the accident.

Every time the '100% every day' thing comes up I ask folks who argue 'everyone has off days' with a rule that the bank I worked for had in their code of conduct. It was about giving 100% every day. It asked 'would our customer be happy when they deposit $1000 and we only get $960 in their account?' After all that's 96% correct!!

 

And that was a business that if there was an error no one died. But still a good rule no matter the job. Should we be happy 98% of the folks lived in the train crash??

I wish I had AMCDave working for me.  Never did have a perfect employee before.

So sorry....retired!!!!

 

The root of the policy was to AIM for 100%.....and WHEN it's not achieved you take responsibility  for the error.  Our issues were fixed with words.....can't be done here.

I may have the handbook on PDF if you are interested....but doubt 99.9% here are.

Darn!

 

What pdf manual?  

 

You do actually have a point:  Have you ever asked your doctor what was the passing grade at his/her med school?

But such a system you propose can has its flaws.  Ask the Washington Metro system.  Do we rally want a world run by machines like HAL 9000?

 

Yup, Partick McGoohan proved that in Silver Streak.

 

So, how about realtime cameras in the cab connected back to the dispatchers area with folks constantly looking over their shoulders?

 

In the end Metro North is going to be held financially responsible regardless.  I guess that means they won't be able to afford the PTC, or whatever, until 2020.

 

Almost daily, there are accidents around the country with trucks and busses and commuter trains that kill people.  This one just got national press attention.

regarding any lawsuits that end up with awards to injured parties: I'm sure Metro north has an insurance policy for just this type of event. And even if the plaintiffs prove their case and are awarded a large sum, I'm sure that Metro will appeal any such award that goes beyond reasonable compensation. 

I must admit that I really can't recall all THAT many commuter train crashes that involved fatalities to the train passengers, especially NOT on the scale of daily/hourly fatalities with trucks & automobiles.

I will agree the media loves to exploit 'bad news' events. But I don't think we have train wrecks daily involving passenger trains going 52 mph over the speed limit and 4 people killed. This 'event' got the attention it deserved. 

 

Simple Solution isn't bad Allan. But your second sentence is just wrong. First of all, Metro North is a governmental entity so profitability is not an issue at all. Second of all, if it were a "for profit" entity, the simple fact is that by that point in the express train's run, the conductors have long since stopped punching tickets and are doing nothing. So it wouldn't cost the railroad an additional person to require conductors on certain trains to be in the engineer's cab at certain times.

 

On the reverse run, coming out of NYC on the Hudson line, the conductors are usually done punching tickets by Yankee stadium and have little or nothing to do for the remainder of the run except at station stops.

 

Gerry

 

I imagine that is really the most practical solution…easily implemented and at relatively low cost.  Heck, visual monitoring is pretty much being undertaken everywhere we go these days, so it sure wouldn't be anything terribly out of the ordinary.

Here is the diagram that the NYT posted of the operator's cab

 

The diesels have the alerter system, but they're not present in or carried forward to the cab-control car when in push mode. So basically, only the northbound trips have operator vigilance devices in effect.

 

---PCJ

The option of dispatchers looking at every engineers face searching for problems is not possible. They already have their hands full keeping the lines moving.

 

And do you expect them to be glued to watchng the in cab cameras for those briefest of moments that could indicate a problem with every single train/engineer? Think about how many trains are running at any given moment on the BNSF, much less the rest of the railroads.

 

I believe the alerter is part of the answer.  You MUST take your hand completely off the device and then back on every 30-60 seconds or so to prevent the train from automatic braking to a stop. I am very surprised there is not one in a cab car running push mode.

 

Paul

 

 

 

WOW///How far do you go...Watchers watching the cab.....Do we need watchers watching the watchers.....Where does accountability belong?...If you are driving a car and nod off and kill someone are you going to be charged with something like involuntary manslaughter?? WHEN DOES THE RESPONSIBILITY STOP WITH THE PERSDON PERFORMING THE FUNCTION??? You can put all the automatic safety devices you want in place but the .....INDIVIDUAL MUST HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY ....If you don't want it FIND ANOTHER JOB.

Actually, popsrr, many locos do have in-cab cameras, facing forward.  They have been very helpful to engineers involved in grade crossing accidents by verifying that indeed the horn blew and the gates were down.  But no none could sit in a control room any pay attention to each and every engineer continuously.  I fully agree with Railrunnin.

 

The bottom line is that no one is perfect, and therefore things happen.  Who among us who has been driving for years can truthfully say they have never felt drowsy.  With regard to the engineer, I am reminded of the words of Dorothy Thompson upon viewing the German concentration camps after Word War II:  "There but for the grace of God go we."

 

The solution is to try to have automatic safety controls or problem detectors.  Sometimes they work, as when two pilots fell asleep in the cockpit and overflew their destination by several hundred miles, the autopilot being in charge.  Sometimes they do not, as when on the Washington Metro a motorman obeyed the direction not to override the computer control, and was killed when his train, which had skidded on ice and failed to stop at several stations, eventually slid into another train.

 

 

"Do we need watchers watching the watchers?"

 

Apparently we do since these "distracted" episodes seem to be increasing in frequency.

 

Accountability would still remain with the responsible individual; the camera would simply affirm it.

Allen I don't agree with you on this one. I think if you do the camara you have given the cab person a crutch and they can feel that well the camara will help me if I fall asleep...NO NO...The person performing the job either does it correctly or we have the situation that we have today andf the cab person is held accountable. Otherwise I feel theer becomes "SHARED" accountability in which there is NO REAl accountability.

  This bickering around about cameras in the cab is about the dumbest thing posted here yet. Lets say there is a camera and the somebody sees an engineer falling asleep or worse. Whats he going to do? Call the engineer and tell him to stop the train. Maybe he can shut down the power and stop all trains in that power section. Then all trains are stopped until they get to him. Do you do this every time an engineer nods his head?!!! 
 

  Most railroads have been using the alerter system for years. They are not perfect but when that thing starts bleeping at you it darn well gets your attention fairly quick. If it doesn't then the train stops. Why are these head end cars not equipped? How many lives does it take before the railroads are required to have them on all their equipment?

 

 

As I stated in another thread, inward facing cameras, or outward facing for that matter, will NOT, and have NOT prevented anything while it's happening. All they do is confirm what did happen, and swing the liability aspect, after the fact. Alerters do not prevent anything, otherwise we wouldn't have trains running into other trains. You sit in a cab long enough, it becomes habit to hit the alerter w/o paying attention to it.

I have spent 23 years sitting in the cab. As I stated alerters are not perfect but they will get your attention if they go off long enough. Yes it does become habit to reset the thing but if nothing else they will make you aware as to how tired you really are.

RJR, I don't have a problem with a camara that keeps a record or automation that helps to monitor the train crital data but I feel a "Central Montoring Concept" to warch the cab people will not be the correct approach because it creates a no body at fault and no accountability situation.

Other than in cases of intentional wrong doing there is no such thing as sole individual responsibility.   Everything you are doing is within some framework created by some external entity creating a contributory situation.  And rule makers are just soooo good at making ****ed-if-you-do-****ed-if-you-don't rules.   Especially railroads it seems, reading some of the stories like the DC Metro one.  Or the UP crew that let a bridge burn up because the dispatcher wouldn't let them move.

 

Actually, the camera thing was a little bit tongue-in-cheek.  Not fond of Big Brother.  However, I do like the forward facing "dash cam" idea and I've been meaning to set one up in my car.

 

I guess LRVs and Trolley systems don't really count a commuter trains (they do to me) but I don't think a week or two goes by that there isn't a fatality in California.  Usually because an automobile or city bus driver did something stupid.

 

I had a situation here in San Jose a couple of weeks ago where the left turn light turned green for me and the opposing LRV operator went about 10 feet into the intersection before realizing what had happened and stopped.  Scared me, but not as much as the folks making a left turn in the other direction.

  I agree.The older NS units use to have the whistling alerter that was soo loud you thought it could pierce your eardrum,and sometimes they would sound before the light bulb would come on...very annoying.But the newer alerters get the point across with the gradual beep and screen display.I almost think that part needs to be a bigger display and brighter during the daytime.

 

 Inward facing cameras... I don't agree with.And yes we have the rail view cameras that have been very beneficial to the railroads legal department. 

 

 They want to put inward facing cameras on train cabs,guns on airplane cabs,but no guns on engine cabs   Do they have inward facing cameras on planes ?

 

 They rest and fatigue laws on the railroad have been way behind the other industries in this country.Just like today I became rested after a 48hr. rest period after 6 days of work at 5am and have yet to be called.I'll probably get out from 9-12pm tonight and be out till 10-11am (since we only work 11 hr. shifts here). I'm all for the on call status, understanding the way the railroad operates,but I think a call window of about 4 hrs. needs to be implemented to help fight trying to get proper rest.

 

  

That whole story has been proven to be NOT TRUE, but continues to circulate around the internet, year after year after year!

Suggest getting the latest Classic Trains special "All Aboard: Great Train Rides."

 

Within is an article about another train, the North Coast Limited, that slammed through a 30mph curve at 87mph, March 3, 1962.  The engineer and fireman were alleged to be drunk and fell asleep.  All four diesels and 15 of 17 cars left the rails.

 

This wreck only had one fatality, a little girl.  There are first person accounts by the two surviving sisters of the little girl, who were also victims of the wreck.

 

Sobering.

 

Rusty

 

 

So, then the photographs were all faked?

The photos are indeed of the actual event, however all the "other BS" that has been posted about the "event" is generally NOT TRUE!

Hmm,  so what what was the story if I might ask?

Benn too long, but the best that I can recall was, the train had a hot journal, which eventually totally failed and THAT extreme hear & molten metal set the trestle on fire plus causing the train to go into emergency. I believe the Conductor went back and uncoupled as much of the headend as he could reach, and the Engineer then pulled the front "good part" of the train away from the blaze. Since the trestle was way out in the country, local Firefighters could not get access to water to fight the already raging blaze.

 

I think that was it in a nut shell. All the crap posted by a disgruntled employee, totally blew the whole event out of proportion.

As I noted far earlier in this thread:  So long as humans are involved, there will be accidents.

 

The lawyers will sort out the liability issues.  You can be quite sure of that.

 

And if rail lines themselves don't take proactive measures to minimize the risk of such things happening along their routes, they WILL happen again from time to time.

 

No point in trying to make excuses for the rail employee involved in this incident.  No matter how spotless his prior record, he apparently screwed-up big time.  If the investigation supports that contention, you can be quite sure he will suffer severe consequences.  Indeed, that would be perfectly fitting and proper.

Oh how I wish I was blessed with your vast knowledge and foresight of the rail industry that you have demonstrated in this thread. 

 

Mere mortals such as the professional railroaders who have posted insightful comments in this thread surely don't have your vast experience in accident investigation, train handling, fatigue management, vigilance system operation and maintenance, and a whole host of other industry specific knowledge that you apparently possess. 

 

I'll ask the same question that I have on occasion asked of you in other threads over the years, none of which match the seriousness of this topic (a tragic accident resulting in the deaths of four people). Are you acting as judge, jury, and executioner in an official capacity as the "Editor in Chier, OGR", or as a private individual? 

 

If you are posting your opinions in an official capacity, then I truly hope that your employer can learn how to put a leash on you, especially since he is a professional railroader who knows that you don't prematurely shoot off your mouth until the accident investigation is complete.  If you are posting in a personal capacity, then words simply cannot express the contempt that I have for your statements displayed in this thread.

 

Jerry J. Zeman, Jr. 

 

 

With all do respect, Allan is editor of a toy train magazine and he has no official capacity in talking about this accident, as none of us has. If you actually read his last statement, Allan didn't say the guy was guilty, he gave his opinion that the guy apparently screwed up big time, and then said if the NTSB came to the official conclusion that pretty much agreed with his opinion, ie that the engineer had fouled up, that he would pay consequences for it, and that allen would agree with those consequences if in fact that happened.

 

In the end what allan says, what I say, what any of the 'professionals' on here say, doesn't matter one whit except as speculation, the officials investigating it will make a determination, and people speculate because they are curious, and also because the official reports take forever (which is not a bad thing), so they go by what they read. What I never understood is why if the people speculating on here are a bunch of amateurs whose opinions mean nothing,why the 'professionals' get their nose bent out of joint, when it has no impact on what comes out of the investigation? Allen, myself or anyone else on here decide no ones fate, have no role to play, are on the sidelines, and simply are giving our opinions, and how is that any different than the professionals who make their opinions known?