More Lionel errors

Jerry:
You, like a lot of us like to fix our trains. BUT as I have said on other posts, if we do not start sending this product back 1. how will the mfg ever know about the issues and 2. due to 1, we will continue get what we always got. Put this in perspective. If this was your new car. What would you do?.

I guess the lesson here is, there are 6 things to do when buying a new Lionel/American Flyer product.

The first three are:

1)Inspect upon receipt...
2)Inspect upon receipt...
3)Inspect upon receipt...

The next three are:

1)Test run...
2)Test run...
3)Test run...

Then you have to make your own decision about sending it back. The decision can become contadictory. For example:

The Greyhound Challenger. Mine runs fine, but there is one glaring omission in the decoration. The dark gray is missing from under the windows on the cab.



Lionel's offered me a refund, but I declined.

I'm guessing they're all like this and my desire for the locomotive outweighs the omission. It wasn't until I took pictures of the locomotive that I even noticed the missing dark gray. Plus, I have the paint and decals to eventually correct this oversight.

However, the U33C was a different story. The missing stripes on the left side of the locomotive are a more glaring error because it's so much more obvious because the stripes are on both side the cab and the right side, but not left side of the hood.



When I test ran the U33C at my LHS, I didn't remove the styrofoam packing behind the handrails. I noticed it when I completely unpacked the locomotive at home, so after taking a couple of quick pictures, back it went to my LHS and they're sending it back to Lionel.

The resolution is pending on the U33C.

Now, why did I send back the U33C but not the Challenger?

I guess I wanted the Challenger more and can correct the mistake fairly easily.

The U33C is more of wanting to have an example in my roster, the stripes are more of a "one of" problem and is more difficult to correct properly. When I ordered it, the only other choice was the SP. I felt the E-L would be more interesting.

I guess I didn't realize HOW interesting the E-L would be...

If Lionel can't replace it with another Erie Lackawanna, I'm willing to accept another roadname.

But, from now on I will be carefully inspecting and test running every Lionel locomotive at my LHS before accepting it.

Stay tuned...

Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by poniaj:
Folks,

Not to pile it on, but ...Yesterday, I discovered that the loco was missing the rear coupler. Not only the coupler, but the bracket, spring, screw, and even the knurled brass insert for the mounting screw! That's when I also discovered that two of the four small slider wheel brackets that pick up current weren't flexing like they should. Now I was faced with a choice. Do I send it back, or repair it myself? Jerry

IMHO, Jerry, contact Lionel and have them correct the problems, if at all possible. I suspect that they may be able to rectify the issues because they have built a lot of versions of the Docksides and will have the required parts. Interesting. I own two Docksides (B&O, PRR), which are OK.

For what it may be worth, my E-L U33C continues to be fine electro-mechanically and physically, and is still running well. Knock on wood.

Bob Bubeck

Did anyone else notice their Keystone boxcar missing something? The catalog stated it would have simulated door guide rivets and even showed them in the catalog artwork. Thecar I have has just the standard tab and slot door guides.

Not a major problem in my book, just thought it was funny the would specifically advertise that feature then not deliver it

quote:

Originally posted by FlyerMike:
Did anyone else notice their Keystone boxcar missing something? The catalog stated it would have simulated door guide rivets and even showed them in the catalog artwork. Thecar I have has just the standard tab and slot door guides.

Not a major problem in my book, just thought it was funny the would specifically advertise that feature then not deliver it

It's like the engineer and fireman figures for the Challengers. They're on the list of features in the catalog, they're on the list of features on the box, but they're not included.

And Lionel has no plans to make them available. I asked.

Now, with the exception of a bad switch in the B&O Mikado, I've had no problems with the "new" Flyer... Until now.

I don't know if Lionel's marketing doesn't talk to engineering who doesn't talk to manufacturing or what, but it seems the quality complaints are up on the O Gauge side, too.

I'm not going to write Lionel off, yet... But, if things don't improve with the next models, I'm going to be less likely to work up any enthusiasm to purchase any more.

Rusty

It is hard to be enthused about the potential of new product with this cloud of QC doubt hanging over every ones head.

I have been lucky is guess, Mikados, Challengers and traditional style Flyonel and the only issue to date has been with the Big Boy. I have not gotten my BN U33C yet, so I guess the negative list could grow.(hope I did not just jinx myself)

I agree with some of the posts, make Lionel fix what they can. Mechanical is one thing, some one in Lionel service can fix it, but the cosmetic stuff is BS. It is like the Full Vista dome NYC passenger car that does not match ALL the other cars made for that set.

Ben

quote:

Originally posted by kgsouth:
Jerry:
You, like a lot of us like to fix our trains. BUT as I have said on other posts, if we do not start sending this product back 1. how will the mfg ever know about the issues and 2. due to 1, we will continue get what we always got. Put this in perspective. If this was your new car. What would you do?.

Good points on sending the loco back. Lionel should be informed, but really, will it make any difference? Lionel has been notified of their poor QC by many others, and their stuff keeps having problems. Do they really care? Perhaps, but problems keep on happening, and I've already fixed it, and it runs fine. And Bob B. if I didn't have the parts on hand, it would have made a difference. I might have sent it back.

Sending a toy train back is a hassle (who pays postage? How much time does it take to go to the post office? will they repair it for free? will they do the job right? etc.), but a car costs hundreds of times more, and therein lies the difference. On the other hand, I'm getting pretty adept on repairing Lionel stuff now!

Test running and careful inspections are indeed the rule of the day. I don't know if I'll be buying much more Lionel, though. Especially now that I'm elbow deep in making my new layout.

Jerry

If people sent back defective merchandise they would have an incentive to improve quality control. This is NOT the old Lionel. This is primarily a marketing company. Would you be accepting of a high priced TV that did not work properly?
Herb W

Herb,

That's my point. People HAVE complained, and sent things back. The same mistakes continue, so as a marketing company, they've failed. They used to make trains, not sell "marketing". Doesn't seem like the old post war Lionel or Gilbert to me. Yeah, I know. The company is in business to make a profit, etc. etc. That's understandable. But I buy their products because they're just toys. And a high priced TV costs more than my $99 docksider. Another reason why I didn't get the steamers. The U33C was bought due to the flash and appeal (to me) of something new. No more. I'm sticking to AM and SHS.

And I don't own a high priced TV....

Jerry

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:

quote:

Originally posted by FlyerMike:
Did anyone else notice their Keystone boxcar missing something? The catalog stated it would have simulated door guide rivets and even showed them in the catalog artwork. Thecar I have has just the standard tab and slot door guides.

Not a major problem in my book, just thought it was funny the would specifically advertise that feature then not deliver it

It's like the engineer and fireman figures for the Challengers. They're on the list of features in the catalog, they're on the list of features on the box, but they're not included.

And Lionel has no plans to make them available. I asked.

Now, with the exception of a bad switch in the B&O Mikado, I've had no problems with the "new" Flyer... Until now.

I don't know if Lionel's marketing doesn't talk to engineering who doesn't talk to manufacturing or what, but it seems the quality complaints are up on the O Gauge side, too.

I'm not going to write Lionel off, yet... But, if things don't improve with the next models, I'm going to be less likely to work up any enthusiasm to purchase any more.

Rusty

Rusty, here is my conspiracy theory on the missing crew figures: Lionel intended for them to be there all along and then their Asian builder never had them sourced or possibly neglected to install them. I would say the former, because if the figures were in fact made, then all Lionel would have to do is have them sent over and distibute them from here. Again, it is what the Importer is willing to accept from his builder. What I am ammazed at is that while smaller importers would send them back, A large firm like Lionel will not. To me, this seems like a very cheap way to get off the hook. This is precisely what I saw in 3 rail, in that you never exactly know what you will get with a Lionel product until you open the box and run it.

quote:

Originally posted by CSX Troy:
Rusty, here is my conspiracy theory on the missing crew figures: Lionel intended for them to be there all along and then their Asian builder never had them sourced or possibly neglected to install them. I would say the former, because if the figures were in fact made, then all Lionel would have to do is have them sent over and distibute them from here. Again, it is what the Importer is willing to accept from his builder. What I am ammazed at is that while smaller importers would send them back, A large firm like Lionel will not. To me, this seems like a very cheap way to get off the hook. This is precisely what I saw in 3 rail, in that you never exactly know what you will get with a Lionel product until you open the box and run it.

Here's the word from the "horses mouth" as it were, about the crew figures:

" Hello, they decided to not make the figures for the American Flyer Challenger. Sorry for the inconvenience we can refund the train if you don't want it without the figures.

Thank you
Talk To Us "

So, like good corporate robots, they would rather throw money(refunds) at the problem rather than correct the problem.

The funny thing is, the crew figures are installed in the problematic U33C, but they're barely visible, whereas they'd be much more visible in the Challenger!

Rusty

What is an interesting read, is the 'Mission Statement' that Lionel proudly include on their website. I enclose it below for people to be amused by and have a bit of a laugh.

After stripping out those statements which are dubious you will probably end up with a blank sheet of paper, which is where Lionel should then provide a statement that truly reflects the as-is now.

----------------------------------------------------------

Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.

Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.

Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years.

Yep......"keeping the magic alive"
Al

A "Mission Statement" is just words on a page if there's no desire to follow them. It's been my experience that once a mission statment is written, most executives feel it doesn't apply to them.

Maybe Lionel should just try using magic.

Nothing else seems to work.

Rusty

And who else has produced articulated steamers? Not AM, not S Helper. The errors are regretable, but they are trying.

John

quote:

Originally posted by John23:
And who else has produced articulated steamers? Not AM, not S Helper. The errors are regretable, but they are trying.

John

There are several catches here:

1) They have all the reasearch. It's not like Lionel's never made a Challenger before. They did in O Gauge where they had the oil bunker (where used,) included the crew figures (which are barely visible but included on the U33C) and got the paint right.

Lionel's stock answer is "verify product content with features listed on the box." Well, the Challenger's crew figures were listed on the box and they're not included. Granted, they offered a refund, but how can a company continue to do business if all they're going to do is buy back the product?

2) The delays for product release added to the anticipation and disappointment when things aren't right.

3) If the consumer doesn't complain, what incentive does Lionel, or any other manufacturer have to improve the product for the next go-round?

4) SHS and AM do far better with less resources than Lionel available to them. The SHS 2-8-0 was also hit with long delays, but the final product was finished as advertised, reliable and worth the wait.

Don't get me wrong, I WANT Lionel to succeed in the S Gauge market, but they need to live up to their heritage and mission statemet if they expect to succeed.

Rusty

This Rusty Track is nothing but a complainer and crybaby. If you dont like Lionel quit whining already! Dont Buy Then.

quote:

This Rusty Track is nothing but a complainer and crybaby.

Gee, I don't know about that. He sure appears to have done his homework and provided a whole lot of supporting documentation. Seems to me he has expressed some valid concerns.

We need more "crybabies" and "complainers" like Rusty (0ne of the best posters on this site.
Herb W

quote:

Originally posted by jkmarc:
This Rusty Track is nothing but a complainer and crybaby. If you dont like Lionel quit whining already! Dont Buy Then.

Hello jkmarc.

I can see by your registration date that you are a newcomer.

I would like to take this opportunity to personally welcome you to the Forum!

Your defense of Lionel is admirable. I'm looking forward to your further wisdom and insights into the S-Scale mindset and talents.

Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:

quote:

Originally posted by jkmarc:
This Rusty Track is nothing but a complainer and crybaby. If you dont like Lionel quit whining already! Dont Buy Then.

Hello jkmarc.

I can see by your registration date that you are a newcomer.

I would like to take this opportunity to personally welcome you to the Forum!

Your defense of Lionel is admirable. I'm looking forward to your further wisdom and insights into the S-Scale mindset and talents.

Rusty

Not the response I would have given!

quote:

Originally posted by John23:
And who else has produced articulated steamers? Not AM, not S Helper. The errors are regretable, but they are trying.

John

At $850 - $900 a pop they need to try MUCH harder. Futhermore, having access to a defective train is not the solution to not having one at all. If it does not run and you have to bounce it back-and-forth from Ohio several times, what do get out of it except frustration? Also, please see some of the other posts concerning just how obvious (Steamers with bad boards & Diesels with no stripes) thoes "regretable" errors actualy are. Personally, when I add up all of my Lionel experiences in both 3 rail and S, I'm tired of actually being plesantly surprised when I get a Lionel product that 1.) has everything that Lionel said it would have & 2.) Runs & Functions correctly out of the box.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:

quote:

Originally posted by John23:
And who else has produced articulated steamers? Not AM, not S Helper. The errors are regretable, but they are trying.

John

There are several catches here:

4) SHS and AM do far better with less resources than Lionel available to them. The SHS 2-8-0 was also hit with long delays, but the final product was finished as advertised, reliable and worth the wait.

Rusty

IMO, this is the crux of the whole discussion. Lionel, on their own initiative, wants to be a premium brand and reap the premium pricing that comes with it. I say: GREAT! There is a list on another post of all the wonderful ideas for this type of product in S, but fulfill the expectations that being a premium brand entails. Also, if a company wants to be considered a premium brand, then I as a consumer get to decide if their product matches MY expectations of what that premium should be. Respectfully, the Challengers and U33C's are not that answer.

Not that Lionel shouldn't improve. They most certainly can and need to. What is missing here in the passing commentary is balance. Lionel’s competitors are not perfect, either. I’ve have preordered items from the competition, only to be disappointed by what finally was delivered, as well. To wit:

AM:

1. The self-disintegrating hand rails on the Baldwin switchers. AM knew that they had a problem but was never willing to supply free replacements.

2. The heavyweights. Very disappointing, especially the trucks, which have never been changed for the better. Illumination shines through the roofs and this is really noticeable in a darkened room.

3. The Pacifics were years late and never had the details promised (well, implied) in the brochures and advertisements.

4. Early issues of the Northerns did not sit level (cab down) and would self-derail on curves. Many fragile detail parts on the tender.

5. Shells that thermally deform on the SD-60’s behind the cab.

6. They charge shipping both (!) ways for warrantee work.

SHS:

1. The first F-3’s had numerous electronics failures (mine had 3) and the trucks did not come painted as they should be on my WP’s.

2. Early issues of the SW’s were/are noisy on curves.

3. The Consolidations were years late despite the many deposits that customers had laid down in advance. The final product, though a beautiful model, has detail parts and a plastic drawbar coupling under the cab that are too fragile. Low speed operation in conventional is lumpy and the sounds in the Locomatic versions are sub par (to put it politely).

4. Rolling stock trucks that come apart due to worn tooling.

Did these two manufacturers eventually address many of these problems? Sure, but not all. Are they good guys who will try to help most of the time? Of course. Similarly, from time to time, Lionel has sent to me parts gratis out of warrantee. They currently repair out of warrantee Legacy units for free.

The portion of Lionel devoted to Flyer is no bigger than the size of their competitors and is struggling with similar Asian manufacturing issues as those of AM and SHS. Lionel is attempting to provide motive power with features (speed control, electrocouplers, smoke in diesels, etc.) that are considerably beyond what the competition offers and these add to complexity. Do they need to get on top of the related QC issues? Absolutely. If, however, these new features are not at the top of one’s list of desired attributes, then buy elsewhere.

Again, as someone who has at this moment a second Challenger at Ohio, I recognize that Lionel is not perfect. But, let’s remember that the competition has its issues, too, from time to time.

Bob Bubeck

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Bubeck:
Not that Lionel can improve. They most certainly can and need to. What is missing here in the passing commentary is balance. Lionel’s competitors are not perfect, either. I’ve have preordered items from the competition, only to be disappointed by what finally was delivered, as well. To wit:

AM:

1. The self-disintegrating hand rails on the Baldwin switchers. AM knew that they had a problem but was never willing to supply free replacements.

2. The heavyweights. Very disappointing, especially the trucks, which have never been changed for the better. Illumination shines through the roofs and this is really noticeable in a darkened room.

3. The Pacifics were years late and never had the details promised (well, implied) in the brochures and advertisements.

4. Early issues of the Northerns did not sit level (cab down) and would self-derail on curves. Many fragile detail parts on the tender.

5. Shells that thermally deform on the SD-60’s behind the cab.

6. They charge shipping both (!) ways for warrantee work.

SHS:

1. The first F-3’s had numerous electronics failures (mine had 3) and the trucks did not come painted as they should be on my WP’s.

2. Early issues of the SW’s were/are noisy on curves.

3. The Consolidations were years late despite the many deposits that customers had laid down in advance. The final product, though a beautiful model, has detail parts and a plastic drawbar coupling under the cab that are too fragile. Low speed operation in conventional is lumpy and the sounds in the Locomatic versions are sub par (to put it politely).

4. Rolling stock trucks that come apart due to worn tooling.

Did these two manufacturers eventually address many of these problems? Sure, but not all. Are they good guys who will try to help most of the time? Of course. Similarly, from time to time, Lionel has sent to me parts gratis out of warrantee. They currently repair out of warrantee Legacy units for free.

The portion of Lionel devoted to Flyer is no bigger than the size of their competitors and is struggling with similar Asian manufacturing issues as those of AM and SHS. Lionel is attempting to provide motive power with features (speed control, electrocouplers, smoke in diesels, etc.) that are considerably beyond what the competition offers and these add to complexity. Do they need to get on top of the related QC issues? Absolutely. If, however, these new features are not at the top of one’s list of desired attributes, then buy elsewhere.

Again, as someone who has at this moment a second Challenger at Ohio, I recognize that Lionel is not perfect. But, let’s remember that the competition has its issues, too, from time to time.

Bob Bubeck

Bob,

Obviously, your experiences have been different from mine with AM & SHS, but then I reside mostly in the DC scale world where the electronics is not an issue.

However, I first feel the need to remind everyone that neither AM or SHS has the financial or manpower resources that Lionel has. Both companies have considerably fewer employees than Lionel. They are literally "mom and pop" shops.

Are AM and SHS perfect? No. But I've had considerably less trouble with their products over the years than those of Lionel.

I did have an SHS SW-9 where the motor did literally go out in a blaze of glory. It was out of warranty by that time, so 15 bucks and a new motor later, it was up and running like new.

The noise generated by early SHS products doesn't really bother me, it sort of reminds me of my old horizontal motor Lionel F3's.

Locomatic sucks, pure and simple. No argument there. I have a pair of F3's and a 2-8-0 with it.

And yes, I've has some of their freight trucks fall apart on me, but they went back together and stayed together.

As far as AM... The handrails on my Baldwins are OK, at least the last time I looked, they're both boxed up right now.

The USRA Pacific's were indeed a disappointment detail wise. I'm really surprised nobody called AM out on the Franklin Mint HO model they were using in their ads at the time. But, I tend to look at them as a "blank slate" for redetailing, so my view is a little biased in that regard. They do, however, run superbly, although I wouldn't give you 2 cents for the Ott "sound system" AM uses.

I have a first and second release Northern, both scale. I have not experienced derailing issues with either due to mechanical issues. On a certain section of my masterfully(?) laid track, yes. The only tender issues I've had are the tool boxes getting knocked off.

Now, the heavyweights. Well, I think you actually have to blame SHS for that, they helped (hence, their name and before they started the Showcase Line) AM finance and design those cars. Mechanically, the design harkens back to the Rivarrossi HO heavyweight of a one piece body/floor with a clear roof/window casting. I'll agree it would have been better to go with the Athearn method of one piece body and roof with a separate underframe/floor. AM chose that route for the Budd cars and their earlier 85' streamliners, although the underframe on the 85 footers was rather flimsy.

The heavyweight passenger trucks are mechanically based how Pacific Rail Shops designed their freight trucks. Not a better idea in my opinion, I'm not really fond of the PRS trucks, either.

Now, I actually gave up on Lionel/Flyer several management changes ago. It was only when the new Mikado's first came out did I carefully come back in. I was pleasantly surprised with the Mikado's and the later Pacific's.

I had high hopes for this latest and greatest Flyer from Lionel. I was even being a cheerleader over on the YaHoo S-Scale board on how although not specifically geared to the scale modeler, this latest Flyer was a good thing for S over all.

I am disappointed, but not discouraged with Lionel, at least not yet. I'm more than willing to give them a fair shake with the next items. If there's something I'm interested in, I'm willing to take another chance, but it will not be with the same confidence I have with AM, SHS or SSA.

Finally, an update for anyone still awake. I finally managed to get to my LHS and check on the status of my Lackastriping U33C.

It's still not back.

Lionel apparently treats dealers differently than the end customer directly. Lionel will apparently not issue an RA over the phone to a dealer. It has to be done via email. It took my LHS 4 days to get an RA. They sent my U33C out the same day after receiving the RA and are waiting to hear back, just like me.

Now, before anyone suggests anything, they are a well-known, well established, respected bricks and mortar store that moves a lot of Lionel, MTH and 3rd Rail through the door. They pay their bills promptly and will bend over backwards to locate something after the ordering deadline has long passed. They're not some fly-by-night basement mail order house.

Seems to me that Lionel could treat their established dealers a little better.

So the wait continues...

I have been reading a lot in this forum. I agree and disagree on some issues. Iam not new to S gauge but only to this forum. I will agree 100 present that Lionel doesn't support their dealers as they do us on a one to one basics. I run a little repair shop for the old Gilbert. I also collect Lionel S Gauge. I know Lionel has some problems with their products but they have always made good to me. Between SHS and AM and all the other dealers that supply us with S gauge my hat is off to you. These people including Lionel stick their. Neck out to supply us (older) train guys. All these company's have done a good job of cramming the electronics and sound effects in a very tight and small space have we all lost the respect that these are Toys. S gauge has come along way. These newer products still amaze me after the countless Flyer I have fixed. There has always been problems with new products wether it be TOY trains or anything else that has ever been made I only wish more could be made here in the good old USA. If we want these people to keep supporting our hobby I think we should support them

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:
Bob,

Obviously, your experiences have been different from mine with AM & SHS, but then I reside mostly in the DC scale world where the electronics is not an issue....

Rusty,

I suspect our experiences differ because I usually bought into the introductory production run. All three manufacturers/importers are occassionally guilty of placing engines in catalogs and subsequently figuring how to actually build them with consistency at a profit. Lionel is short-handed (more so than folks may know) and is not as big as it used to be. Most product development folks there are assigned to various 0 gauge projects for much of their time. The SHS folk appear to be quicker than those with the other two firms to rectify many issues.... which goes to another point.

Lionel has been doing more new 'big' stuff (BB*, Challenger, U33C, UP Northern, the new heavyweights) than the other two combined in roughly the last half decade. Not reworkings or repaints of previously produced pieces, but truly new stuff (Lionel also tackles the AF accessory reissues, which consume time and resources). This leaves a manufacturer open to quality issues because each new engine is something of a learning experience. The Lionel Mikado was improved with each successive production run (e.g., better Chery switches, pilot and trailing truck wheels made to be power feeders, etc.). It is well known that there were exceedingly few returns of the last Mikes and Pacifics. Not in any way to let Lionel off the hook, but doing new engines in succession does leave one open to more QC issues.

Caveat emptor.

Bob

*PS: The Big Boys used the K-Line boiler and tender castings, but the chassis, drive train, and a lot of the electronics (e.g., the complex bits) were new. Despite the superficial similarity with the Gilbert No. 336, the conventional UP Northerns were all new with the lone exception of the Gilbert pilot casting.

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Bubeck:

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:
Bob,

Obviously, your experiences have been different from mine with AM & SHS, but then I reside mostly in the DC scale world where the electronics is not an issue....

Rusty,

I suspect our experiences differ because I usually bought into the introductory production run.

Bob,

I was near the front of the line on a fair amount of these new products myself. My B&O Mike had the Cherry switch problem, whereas my NYC version didn't. My AM Northern was ordered on the same day I got the mailing on it.

All this "new" stuff is similar at the most basic level. They all have wheels, gears, motor(s), lights, electronics and couplers. Only the packaging is different. This new, scale detailed Flyer has an O gauge counterpart. The research is there, the drawing files are there, paint diagrams and instructions are there. Physically, these new Flyer locomotives should be S gauge clones of their O gauge brothers, but they're not.

Granted, what fits inside an O gauge locomotive won't necessarily fit in an S gauge locomotive. But, if there is a smooth running mechanism at the core and well executed body, it all come down to the challenge of redesigning the electronics to fit the smaller packaging.

I think we can pretty much agree that every modeler has his own experience regarding any of the stuff from whomever. Some guys luck out and have little to no problems, while others have a dark cloud appear over their head every time they buy something.

I fall somewhere in between. I lucked out on my Challenger, except for the short cuts Lionel took, more than likely to finally get these things out the door because of the delays. My U33C is my first real factory boner and I consider it significant. The ball's in Lionel's court right now. I have to wait for their solution.

Other than that, the U33C seems like a really nice locomotive, in spite of what some of the oh-so-proper-S-scalers may think.

But, these problems are not unique to S, a read of the 3-rail board on almost any day shows we're not alone in our disappointments and frustrations. I've also read of guys singing the praises of Lionel's current service department. So there is some balance.

I honestly think Lionel is a much better company that it was a decade ago. I would like to think that in spite of some of my opinions to the contrary, that they are trying to get their quality issues under control.

Rusty

Bob, you have a very sound point in that there should be a balance and that other manufacturers have had issues as well. To your comment about Lionel working its way up a "learning" curve as it produces products in S, my concern is that these issues are EXACTLY the same as what I saw in 3 rail O and I would think that Lionel should be sufficiently studied up on how to do those by now. I also have agree with Rusty, that Lionel has essentially done 2 different runs of scale challengers (JLC and Vision Line) and 2 different runs of Lionmaster ones and they should have it down by this time. One example I would point to is MTH. I would say they have been more effective at translating what they have in O into HO than Lionel has in bringing their strengths to S. Lionel has been "trying" for the S crowd for some time now. Why should we not expect more from Lionel?

To your point about sounds, granted, Lokomatic is VERY POOR and IMO Lionel's current gen. of Railsounds is the best in any scale. I would love to have even the opportunity to put Legacy and Railsounds in my SHS F3's.

As for heavyweight passnger cars, who in S has done a truly good, affordable version in plastic? You are correct in that Lionel has put out more product in S that Am or SHS combined, but would this not suggest that Lionel does, in fact, have much more resources to use for S? Also, both SHS and AM have been literally crippled by the whole Asian builder situation. Hopefully we will get to see this issue played out a bit more in actual product offers as SHS and AM are getting close to being back up and running. I for one am ready to see that and the new Lionel catalog for 2012 should be here soon. We can see if the potential about another new steamer, a new diesel and more Fastrack are going to be comming soon.

Lastly, to those who have the "If you don't like Lionel, then don't buy it" type of comments out there. How does that make any sense at all when we are on a forum dedicated to talking about trains!?! With that type of logic, I could easily say to you if "You Love Lionel so much, go be in 3 rail" but neither is to the point. Really?? Most of the guys raising these issue have in fact bought alot of Lionel and still want to buy more in the future. Be careful!! You just may be looking for those same guys the next time you have a post entitled "would you buy _____ if it was made in S".

All in all, I think this has been a pretty good discussion. All parties have presented valid points and defended their positions well. I think it indicates that in general, being in a minority scale, we S Gaugers/Scalers have more to "lose" when issues like these arise then our O Gauge bretheren do.

It's also been relatively free of the "Kool-Aide Drinker" type of comments that occur with abandon on the 3-Rail side. I think we deserve an award of some kind for that alone. (However, I'm sure we've all taken a sip from that pitcher from time to time. But, only a little... )

Even though probably most of us have more trains than we'd like to admit, I also find CSX Troy's signature quote from A. C. Gilbert most enlightening:

"Moreover, experience proves that there is virtually no limit to the amount of cars, track, equipment, etc., the scale model railroader will buy once you have planted the "system" idea in his head. The more he has, the more he still wants." A.C. Gilbert Co. - 1947

Ol' A.C. really understood human nature.

Rusty

Just to clarify a bit about being "in" on first production runs....

Statistically there is a higher probability of defects in a first run and the bugs are usually worked out in subsequent runs. That is not to say that all units of a first run are defective or equally defective. For example, my and a friend's E-L U33C's are excellent (and have all of their stripes). However, the chances for a defect is often skewed unfavorably the first time out, regardless of manufacturer.

Just because a company has done an engine in another scale/size does not preclude difficulties as one downsizes. The outwardly visible model is not where the complexity resides, but rather with the innards and attempting fit many features into a smaller size. Note that most of the problems with the Challengers are related to internal operational aspects and much less so with the model itself. Although the final operational goals are pretty much identical, there is rather little directly in common inside physically between the Vision Line Challenger than the new AF.

Have fun.

Bob

Great comments all and I want to thank all who have inputted their comments and suggestions. Together all of you possess a vast wealth of skill and knowledge and by using this forum to air your complaints and ideas the rest of us have benefited greatly. I know I have. Thank you all!

Rich Gabryszewski

quote:

Originally posted by cocker:
These people including Lionel stick their. Neck out to supply us (older) train guys. All these company's have done a good job of cramming the electronics and sound effects in a very tight and small space have we all lost the respect that these are Toys.

True as that may be, I will say that, having just come over to S from N scale, where things are REALLY small,I've seen a lot of "electronics and sound effects" in those tiny models, and they work well. Granted most are after-market add-ons, but if they can do it right in "N", then it seems to me that Lionel can do a better job, given the space they have in their models.....
I've mentioned this before, what Lionel needs to do is offer their models in two series: one with the "bells and whistles" included, and one without, so the buyer has the option of paying less up front, and adding on whatever effects he may want himself. There's a lot of really good options out there, and it's not that hard to do.
And yes, I suppose these are "Toys", although can a $900.00 item really be considered a "toy"? Not on my middle class salary...


Mark in Oregon

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Bubeck:
Just because a company has done an engine in another scale/size does not preclude difficulties as one downsizes. The outwardly visible model is not where the complexity resides, but rather with the innards and attempting fit many features into a smaller size. Note that most of the problems with the Challengers are related to internal operational aspects and much less so with the model itself. Although the final operational goals are pretty much identical, there is rather little directly in common inside physically between the Vision Line Challenger than the new AF.

Have fun.

Bob

I would agree to the extent of squeezing 10 pounds of stuff into an 7.5 pound package. (That ought to be about the right ratio from O to S. ) Where I work, it's essentially the same thing when we redesign a product to fit in a smaller housing. Everything needs to be rethought in order to do it and retain the functions advertized.

But, that doesn't excuse deleting details,(oil bunker, crew figures) omitting the dark grey stripe on the cab of the Greyhound Challenger or the incorrect shape of the short hood on the U33C. All of which were done correctly on their O Gauge equivalents.

Seriously, if they can do the single stack for the Clinchfield version, how can they miss on these other things? And notice I'm not complaining about the fantasy GN, NP and SP&S versions. (Although, the GN might've looked better with a glacier green boiler... )

Granted, there are guys out there that wouldn't care about such things, but Lionel is apparently trying to appeal to guys like me who have a adequate knowledge of the prototype to know the difference. Mistakes, mechanical and electronic issues only help feed the impression among the more serious folks of scale crowd that Lionel only makes toys.

In the end, I think everyone here is hoping Lionel does better overall on the next products announced.

Rusty

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty Traque:

But, that doesn't excuse deleting details,(oil bunker, crew figures) omitting the dark grey stripe on the cab of the Greyhound Challenger or the incorrect shape of the short hood on the U33C. All of which were done correctly on their O Gauge equivalents.

Rusty

Everyone agrees with this, I believe. Different subcontractors as manufacturing sources with differing levels of attention to detail for the two engines may have resulted in the bug-a-boos.

And, I do not understand why a set of crew figures could not be made and sent to every Challenger owner. The goodwill generated would more than make up for the modest cost.

Bob

quote:

Originally posted by Bob Bubeck:
And, I do not understand why a set of crew figures could not be made and sent to every Challenger owner. The goodwill generated would more than make up for the modest cost.

Bob

Of that we are in 100% agreement, Bob.

Rusty

That is quite true. They have replaced body shells on O gauge F-3's twice in recent years - the Santa Fe's and the Western Pacific's, because of unhappy customers. Surely engineer figures would be a lot cheaper than rerunning body shells. People need to complain to any manufacturer loudly and often when the product is not right.

John

I had an opportunity to (re)inspect a recently built Vision Line Challenger. It is missing the dark gray under the cab windows, as well. The VL does have an oil bunker, however.

 

I have ceased more or less worrying about it, because the engine is very appealing, overall. The glass is half full.

 

For what it is worth.

 

Bob Bubeck

Here is a typical Lionel/AF experience. The NH EP-5 heated up and then locked up burning a hole in the plastic shell. Sent it back to Lionel for warranty work and after a while they sent me a refund stating they had no spare NH shells - $250 refund. A year later Trainworld was selling them for $200 so I bought one - works fine and has a bell sound not mentioned in catalogue. Bottom line - I'm preordering the NS SD70.