@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:I don't. When was this statement made, and by whom?
Mike
Lionel made that statement years ago when they switched from TMCC to Legacy. Who actually made that statement I don't remember.
They didn't leave them behind, they dropped them in a bucket. 
In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.
If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.
I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.
@Yellowstone Special posted:In reading through this thread, it looks like getting essential early Legacy and TMCC parts is not looking good. Even though I operate only 7 engines, they are all Lionel TMCC/Legacy, pre-2012.
If things get any worse with Lionel, I would have no hesitation leaving O scale for HO DCC. With my relatively small layout, it would entail just taking up the Fastrack and replacing it with HO track. Then selling off the O scale engines, rolling stock, and power, then replacing them with all HO.
I don’t necessarily want to do that. But Lionel may leave me with no choice.
And that's what I intend to do, HO. I have several thousand dollars worth of Lionel trains.
I'll probably lose my shirt but won't have to worry about lack of parts.
Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Am I missing something, or is there a law that states you can’t put DCC in a Lionel, or other 3 rail engine??…why do you have to drop down to H.O.?…
Pat
Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO? 
I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.
Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.
It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.
Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.
On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?
For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48). Maybe yours aren't?
Mike
@Yellowstone Special posted:Pat: “ . . . drop down to H.O.?”, or climb up to HO?
🤣🤣🤣🤣…..definitely drop down,…it’s getting harder to see O stuff,….I doubt HO is an improvement……
Pat
If it gets too bad, then either make my own electronics, adapt other brands, or worst case, just go live steam, or the cheater way- compressed air.
Hoping it doesn't get that bad.
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@RickO posted:I thing one thing everyone is missing is that, Lionel has never had replacement parts manufactured separately.
Parts come from extra whole locomotives that Lionel orders from the original production run. Then they disassemble these locomotives to fill the parts bins.
It's not surprising they are running out of parts for 10+ year old locomotives. Especially with the "parts sale" giving folks more reason to "stock up" on parts they don't need, just in case.
Meanwhile someone has a drawer full of stuff" just in case" and the guy with the dead locomotive is s.o.l.
On a side note. This is also a good reason to relegate the postwar power for accessories and get a modern transformer with a fast acting breaker to protect those obsolete electronics.
Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.
Lionel didn’t run out of all these parts, they simply decided to clear their shelves. Where they went is open to speculation.
Pete
Worse case scenario, if it’s got a DC can motor of some type, a 59 cent bridge rectifier, and it WILL go again,……when I build an engine, I’ll run it on a rectifier for a shake down anyways, ….and I’ll leave it in there until I’m ready to proceed with electronics …..
Pat
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:For most people HO (1:87) trains are smaller than O (1:48). Maybe yours aren't?
Mike
Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.
@Yellowstone Special posted:Geez. I was merely hinting to the concept that since more model railroaders are HO than any other scale, many of them would view moving from O scale to HO, a step up.
You're probably right. We're doomed.
Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out? And, make sure that this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:You're probably right. We're doomed.
Would the last one leaving 'O' please make sure to turn out the lights on the way out? And, make sure that this Forum is shut off as well while you're at it.
Mike
Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike. Maybe you should go play with your trains.
@Norton posted:Pretty sure that didn’t apply to electronics Rick. I doubt train manufactures are making the boards or motors for that matter and while it may be less expensive to have boards made in Asia, they can be made in the US or many other places on the planet. Wasn’t that long ago I was making my own circuitry.
Pete
Pete,
Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards? The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.
It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.
Mike
@Steims posted:Seems like you have an antagonistic pattern to you Mike. Maybe you should go play with your trains.
No antagonism here. Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Pete,
Have you tried buying components lately to stuff into the boards? The present widespread shortage is not helping this situation.
It might be that Lionel doesn't want to let go of everything just in case they can't get any more.
Mike
Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages. However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing. The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, I'm not Pete, but AAMOF, I've been buying components throughout the pandemic and parts shortages. However, I don't think that has anything to do with what Lionel is doing. The boards that were pulled were not ever going to be produced again, they're at least ten years old.
John,
I'm glad you've been able to get your parts. We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough. And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars. Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.
If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem? That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case. Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:No antagonism here. Just stating the facts as others before me in the thread have presented them -- in order to make sure that we have them clear.
Mike
Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now. Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Well, we don't have all the "facts" as of now. Nobody here knows exactly why Lionel pulled all those parts.
My point precisely.
Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.
Mike
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:My point precisely.
Let's not get carried away until we know what's really happening.
Mike
Mike, ….go have a Coke and a smile, …..it’ll be alright buddy!….the trains will go around, and the F150’s will get built…..😉
Pat
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
Don't you guys ever get tired of beating the DCC drum? 
You'd think it came down from a mountain on stone tablets! 
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:John,
I'm glad you've been able to get your parts. We have 35,000 F-150's sitting in parking lots here in Detroit waiting for parts that aren't being made fast enough. And it's not just Ford and not just Detroit and not just cars. Many industries are having this kind of big trouble.
My understanding of the problems in the auto industry is that many of the safety system and emissions controls are based on circuitry that they have long been warned by component manufacturers would soon be obsolete.
Rather that redesign those with more modern processors, system-on-a-chip, and component packages, and have them undergo recertification, they chose to roll the dice.
If the boards that Lionel has pulled from sale are never going to be made again why is there a problem? That inventory wouldn't last long anyway if this were the case. Wouldn't it be better to cut your losses right now and start installing DCC if that's the hand you're being dealt, by Lionel or otherwise?
I think part of the problem is that there just isn’t much on the market that can supply the amount of current that the 3-rail O-scale motors and drive trains demand. This is largely because the two biggest players couldn’t play nice in the same sandbox.
Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards. Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else. So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally. Why? Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.
Will they be back available after sale? No
Are they going to a third party like North Lima? No because North Lima is closed.
She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
Ugggghhh!!!! 
Please don't shoot the messenger.
Thank you Steims, for doing that. Looks like those of us who run TMCC and early Legacy locos are screwed, if they peter out and require new boards. 😳
@Steims posted:Seems that we were all speculating on what is going on with the Lionel replacement boards. Was this just a cost savings move for the upcoming 50% Part Sale or something else. So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
Boards were pulled deliberately/intentionally. Why? Age, make room for new parts coming in, etc.
Will they be back available after sale? No
Are they going to a third party like North Lima? No because North Lima is closed.
She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
Ugggghhh!!!!
Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
@superwarp1 posted:Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
I agree. Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella. A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades. Seems like a fit.
@Steims posted:I agree. Let's hope somebody like Scott Mann made a deal with Lionel to bring those boards under the ERR umbrella. A company with a focus on Lionel locomotive electronics upgrades. Seems like a fit.
The real silver lining would be if Lionel allows whoever is taking over full right to make their own replacements as the parts do indeed become obsolete without a need for a license from Lionel. Much like vendors of Post War parts can make reproductions.
If Lionel is simply transferring the parts for resale and doesn’t allow this change then they will eventually disappear and those four figure Vision engines will be relegated to running around silently with full wave bridges.
Example now is you can no longer get any parts for your JLC Big Boy.
Pete
@Steims posted:So, I called Lionel directly and spoke with Kristen who was in the know. Here is what I took away from our conversation:
...She said there will be an upcoming announcement regarding the boards.
I also spoke with her earlier about this. Did she say how this communication announcement will happen?
I have a lot of TMCC engines. I'm not worried about those as I have options with ERR. What I want is a path forward for keeping my early Legacy engines ( i.e. JLC, early Vision-Line, etc. ) fully operational. This would include the sounds and light functions that came with the engines. And as a bonus, maybe there might be some additional capabilities. But again, these improvements are low on my priority list.
I am not interested in getting rid of my current trains so I can purchase new ones of the same engine, even with additional choice of road names, better sounds, more smoke options, etc.. I know I could do a full Legacy upgrade, that's not what I am after either. I'm happy with what I have. Otherwise I would not have purchased those items.
Further more - I am disappointed that Lionel did not have the foresight to see the pain this would cause to their customers. Lionel should have had the communications ready at a more appropriate time, rather than the user community contacting Lionel asking questions, posting concerns on this forum and elsewhere, asking why was this done this way, etc. going on a rant and then addressing this.
Right now, all I want is to get a DCDS-J S19 code motor driver for my Vision Line 6-11155 so I can once again enjoy this engine with all of its original options.
If someone does take over the inventory, I hope they are provided a way to program the DCDS-J boards with the right code. You can't just get one and have everything work correctly - lighting, and speed of the engine come to mind.
As a service center a courtesy notification would have been nice!
Jim
Since they are not attending York the “announcement” certainly won’t be there. They probably factored in it’s late in the gardening season and there are way too many rotten tomatoes laying around.
I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.
I’m just a small user with only a few of the affected locomotives, but am still hoping for a viable solution, even though the possibilities are speculative at this point. But I’m not holding my breath and am only glad I don’t have dozens of these engines like some collector/operators have.
@Yellowstone Special posted:I agree with Dave G. Although I would say that the user community is stating justified and legitimate complaints rather than “going on a rant” and this was still no way for Lionel to handle it.
You are correct Vern. Rant was not the correct word to use.
At this point pretty much any TMCC engine with DC motors can be kept operable with ERR boards. Nowhere near as economically and without road and cab number talk but running. If your audio or audio power board fails you have to get a ERR Railsounds board. 125 bucks vs 20 bucks sale price.
Right now there is no simple inexpensive option for early Legacy. Those products and their owners have been left out to dry.
Pete
This happens a lot more than you would think, and the problem is there comes a point where keeping stock of parts is more expensive than it is worth (and I am not defending Lionel or condemning them). The problem is when you are talking engines 10 years or older (which ironically are obviously more likely to fail) , they have to keep boards around and if they run out, may not even be able to get them made again in any kind of a cost basis. The boards have some standard components I would assume, but there are also custom chips on there, ASICS and the like (not an engineer, and GRJ is likely gritting his teeth; that's okay, my dad wherever he is will be as well
. I do know that even if the same company that made the boards in the first place could make more, they would charge an arm and a leg (and a new company that might have to re-engineer the board to replace standard components that no longer exist, would be really expensive).
What we have here is what you see with appliances and the like, manufacturers assume that when the units fail, that people will buy a new one (and here I am talking things like the control boards they use in washers and everything else). They do something similar to Lionel, in that when they produce new models the boards are not the same as the older versions. So they keep boards for a particular model x years past the new model introduction, to fulfill warranty claims, then don't have them any more. Lionel prob figures that an engine that is 10 years old (or older), that if the person can't get new boards, they will buy a newer version of a similar prototype. Like the appliance companies, they don't think "Gee, these are expensive units, and maybe they should last a lifetime", they think "Okay, I made my money on the model, I kept the parts around for X years, my job is done".
BTW it isn't just electronics, I have a whirlpool tub that the faucet base may be shot. I talked to the company that made it, and they were like "Oh we stopped having parts for that 15 years ago". They assumed you will just go out and replace the whole tub (not even talking electronics, talking basic plumbing). Tubs like this are a big item, and people keep them a long while..and they don't make replacing that base easy, either.
The reason people mention DCC is easy, because it is a standard you have multiple vendors out there and because it is a standard you can likely get replacement/upgrade boards (I also understand that standardization comes with a *, because there are extensions in some brands that other brands won't support, like wrinkles on sound and so forth). In terms of power, there are DCC units that handle 2 rail O, with modern can engines the power consumption shouldn't be a problem (I doubt anyone makes a DCC board than can handle a pullmore motor). Most engines made in the last 20 years will likely be can motors though. Even if you lose some features, you can still have things like speed control and sound with DCC if you have to switch to another vendor's decoder/boards.
You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔
Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉
@superwarp1 posted:Why not try to reduce inventory via selling them during the sale, and then purge the stock. Lots here doesn't make sense.
I am thinking they do not want us to fix up old engines and instead buy the new bluetooth ones. If selling those old parts means losing new sales they do not want to sell them. I can't think of any other reason for pulling them days before the sale. It was a business decision no matter what other excuse they may make IMO.
@Yellowstone Special posted:You make some good points, bigkid. In the case of Lionel O scale, it’s too bad it’s gone from lifetime conventional locomotives back in the day, to planned obsolescence after command control was introduced. Or, is it unplanned obsolescence? 🤔
Maybe I should have stuck with my conventional Pullmor locomotives and stayed satisfied with those. But darn it, I like the modern features! 😉
Vern,
I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.
"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control. If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?
You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.
If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.
As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?
Mike
