Motor control board DCDS and other electronic parts not available via Lionel

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

Vern,

I hear ya but it's more like unplanned.

"Planned Obsolescence" was not introduced with command control.  If it was how do you explain so many command control equipped units surviving and operating 25 years after their introduction without needing repair?

You've apparently determined that most of them have failed during that time when the opposite is more like the truth - ask the techs here on the forum that fix these things.

If it was planned it would have been 5 max -- and if they intended it to be 5 max then they've clearly failed at it.

As far as your theories about Lionel back in the day, if their products were perfect back then why did Lionel create such a large service network, and have it in place from very early on?

Mike

Must you again, Mike? I was merely alluding to the fact that back in the middle of the last century, Lionel trains would last and last. I still have mine from 1955 and it works today as well as it did back then, with a little maintenance and some tender loving care, of course. Lionel's service network existed to make repairs on those simple Pullmor motors and other simple components, convenient for its customers. No electronics and "boards" back then. There are fewer trains out there in the population today than there were back in Lionel's heyday. More households had them, they were easier to fix, and were not made overseas.

Today, no. When I acquired my first TMCC engines after the turn of this century, I was hoping they would last and last. But if no electronic parts will be available for them, then nada. The only thing I've determined is that my engines will become shelf queens, if they break down and parts are no long available to fix them.

Really getting tired of your over-thinking and over-analyzing everything that is peculiar to your mindset. So again, please live up to your handle and mellow out.

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!

Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔

It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.

That is not correct.    If  you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall.   They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale.     Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps.     Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now.    Digitrax has  a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one.    QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs.     TCS makes a 4 amp decoder.    Some of these do not make sound decoders, but  you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only.   You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming.    All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system.    So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.

I have used mostly NCE decoders in many brass locos built in the 60s, 70s and 80s that have open frame motors, and have had no failures that I did not cause myself by bad installation.   Remember the electronics in most cases are worth a lot less than the loco itself.

So there are options out there.    I have always been very leery of single source systems  where on mfg/vendor is the sole supplier.

@prrjim posted:

It has been posted at least once in this thread that there is nothing out there that will handle O scale locos other than the Lionel or MTH stuff.

That is not correct.    If  you go to DCC, NCE makes a decoder that will handle 4 amps continuouos and 10 stall.   They also make a larger one that will handle 8 Amps for G scale.     Soundtraxx makes some with sound that will handle 3-4 amps.     Lok-sound makes them which is what Sunset is putting in their diesels now.    Digitrax has  a 5 amp decoder, I think and possible also a 3 amp one.    QSI makes the ones that Sunset used until the last few runs.     TCS makes a 4 amp decoder.    Some of these do not make sound decoders, but  you can always add a tiny HO size second one for sound only.   You just put a 100 ohm resister across the motor outputs just to allow programming.    All the DCC decoders work with any DCC control system.    So changing the boards in the loco does not affect the control system.

GOOD GRIEF!  Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff?   If you have one or two engines that need boards, your idea is to convert your whole layout to DCC and cease running your TMCC/Legacy locomotives!  You guys really need to give the DCC drumbeat a rest or keep in a thread where it's on-topic!

the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems.    I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.  

@prrjim posted:

the topic was that you can't get parts for these single source systems.    I merely offered a suggested alternative - with lots of parts sources.  

So, which DCC stuff replaced the DCDS for early Legacy?

The topic is posted in Lionel Service Questions for a good reason, it's about Lionel service parts, not about rebuilding our whole layout and engine fleet!

I guess your idea is we can forget about all those TMCC command switches, the LCS, the Legacy command system, etc.  In other words, we build a new layout and operating environment around DCC.  You'll pardon me if I don't think your idea has all that much allure for most folks that are running Lionel 3-rail layouts!

Jim, I don’t think conventional DCC is solution for most here. It won’t work concurrently with TMCC or DCS over the rails. What should work is the new Blunami which only relies on track power and signals are passed over the air.

Still waiting for the announcement from Lionel and/or its new partner what to expect for support for older engines. This could be a big win for its customers if they finally agree to allow others to build solutions for equipment they themselves no longer want to support.

Follow the model of the auto industry where at one one time and maybe still applies that they only have to support a product for seven years after first release. Others are allowed to make parts to continue that support without need for a license. End users can select between factory parts or third party parts.

Boards that function like the originals can be made forever. When a part becomes obsolete there are others that can take its place.

Pete

Just to throw this in, and this is not smart a** stuff. Everybody on this part of the Forum already knows the things below. I'm just sayin'.

DCC - if you gotta have a lot of "features" (they'll kill the hobby yet). It works. Don't use it; don't want to. (TMCC was just right.) But it works and a lot of guys know the stuff. # of rails does not matter. Pullmor power not invited.

Straight DC power - as the "features" mean less to me than to most, this really appeals to me. If it comes to desperation and you just want to enjoy your trains, a DC power source and a rheostat, used on electronically stripped-down DC-motored (most of them are DC now) locos will get you power, lights, direction, maybe smoke. DC can run Pullmor motors, too. # of rails does not matter here, either. Center rail Hot, running rails Cold, or vice-versa, or whatever terminology you like.

Straight DC makes you almost immune to electronics supply issues. DC Power source. Rheostat. Polarity switch for direction. Done. Really. Live "transformer control" beats dead Command Control, I'd say.

Most of our higher-end locos are geared OK to well, so they should run steadily - not cruise-steady, but real trains slow down and speed up too (though not as often....). Big Pittman motors in a lot of units - and Pittman is found in all sorts of early-ish O scale equipment.

It will probably never come to DC - partly due to my age - but I could dig it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

GOOD GRIEF!  Can we cease and desist with the DCC stuff?   If you have one or two engines that need boards, your idea is to convert your whole layout to DCC and cease running your TMCC/Legacy locomotives!  You guys really need to give the DCC drumbeat a rest or keep in a thread where it's on-topic!

At least in my case, I wasn't beating the drum for DCC. Interesting question, I thought DCC had trouble with DCS because they both go through the rails, that TMCC/Legacy because it is single way and transmits over house wiring ground it wouldn't have the compatibility problem w dcc (and it is just a question).  I was merely pointing out that DCC could be applied to O gauge engines, that's all. DCC would be an option if both legacy and DCS went away, though if that happens it is likely the whole industry would be in trouble.

Aw man, glad I got a couple spares of my favorite RS4 sets. Figured this day would come sooner than later!

The auto industry isn't a particularly good comparison (though I get the reason for the comparison), they tend to produce cars over a long period of time produce a lot of cars. Too, as others pointed out, because of the size of the car market third party people can make money on supplying components for years.

One interesting comparison, we worry about toy trains and the boards that run command control failing. Cars use of technology is a lot more sophisticated, and based on what I know of the industry and personal experience, the electronics don't routinely fail (when they do usually it is things like the car got flooded or shorted, or someone tried jump starting a car and didn't do it right (or as in my case, some nasty rodents got under the hood when a car was in storage, and caused a lot of damage...). It shows that sophisticated electronics aren't necessarily short lived in our train, but the perception is there (and without real information, something Lionel or MTH aren't going to put out there, we don't know).

I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.

I wonder if there will ever be a legacy version of ERR. They might be able to do a basic Legacy board, but I doubt they would make boards that match the original with all the features, just wouldn't be enough volume I think to have all those board types like having a board for a 12 year old legacy Hudson or whatever. A lot of that depends on how much is common with legacy as well, again I could see a basic legacy board being doable for those unable to get the specific ones. The market IMO is too small to allow customized boards that mimic entirely the original.  On the other hand maybe if a third party is really good at this kind of thing, like Milo Minderbinder, they figure out how to make what should be a losing proposition work

You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right.    There is no listing on each one saying saying  only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts.    I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on.   I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens.    So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.

@bigkid posted:

I don't think this is planned obsolescence as much as the nature of the business. I don't think Lionel or MTH or whatever builds them to fail, I think they build them to fit the business model they have. They likely don't build resiliency into them, would be too expensive. And given the size of the market, keeping boards for older engines and the like just becomes economically a non starter. One of the problem is that the control boards are pretty much custom for each engine (talking legacy here), bc of specific features on an engine. It means if a legacy board fails on an old big boy let's say, you can't swap in a more modern board they have, and likely can't swap a board from another legacy engine even of the same vintage but not the same model (and this is just my impressions, folks, not claiming to be an expert). GRJ and the other engineers will probably grit their teeth at me, but in theory you could have a universal board of sorts that differentiates based on software loaded (for example) that controls the specific features (like DCC extensions), but we don't.

I don't think it's planned obsolescence, but it's not nearly as cut-n-dried that you can't use boards from one engine in another engine.  Let's take the boards that specifically disappeared from stock, specifically early Legacy modular boards.  I pick these as there aren't any good substitutes like there are for TMCC.

You are correct in that you can't freely swap boards between locomotives freely, however there are many common boards.  The R4LC boards only have a handful of versions, and the -S03 version works in a vast majority of modular Legacy locomotives.  By the same token, a DCDS for one modular Legacy will likely work in many of them.  Yes, you may have to give up some lighting features, or add them back with external components, but the basic function of motor drive will work just fine.  However, if you have no source of ANY Legacy R4LC version or any Legacy DCDS modules, clearly that avenue is closed.

The argument that inventorying all those older parts doesn't ring true, at least to me.  There are FAR more mechanical and cosmetic parts available for the same vintage models, why did only electronic parts suddenly go "obsolete"?

@prrjim posted:

You know on my screen, a big panel with posts shows up on the right.    There is no listing on each one saying saying  only guys with this, or only guys with that are allowed to look at the posts.    I assumed that big panel was for all uses to look at and comment on.   I don't dig down into specific lionel or other screens.    So why not just keep your secret stuff there and let the rest of us read the topics open to all model railroaders.

You really want to go there?

I guess you haven't been paying attention to all the management posts about off-topic threads and posts.   Just because you can post in a thread doesn't mean you should, or that your pronouncements are on-topic or germane to the topic.  Looking should have illustrated that DCC really doesn't fit into this conversation, but I suspect you already know that.

If you don't dig down into specific Lionel posts, why come to this thread and push DCC.  It clearly isn't the answer to the problem, in spite of your claims to the contrary.  When I'm repairing Lionel control systems, DCC really doesn't enter into the picture, and I seriously doubt it does for a vast majority of Lionel operators!

In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

Well now, I guess it's official. Isn't that just great!?!

Thanks for the info, John. I think. 🤔

Ever since the old CTO. CSM. and audio engineer departed. Lionel has felt more like a "toy making company" than a model train manufacturer.

This is why I have no interest in Lionchief 2, 3, 4.7.... or whatever and certainly not that base 3.

There seems constant reinvention of things, either because of lack consideration of the past , or not enough anticipation of the future.

Meanwhile, the things that always worked, paint, audio boards, gearboxes ...., have hiccups along the way.

@rplst8 posted:

In my eyes, the bigger loss are the RailSounds 6.0 boards.

Well, the other shoe dropped.  I just got a Legacy SD70ACE that cooked it's DCDS.  No repairing this one, it had a little fire on one end of the PCB, total destruction.  With no parts, it'll have to be downgraded to TMCC to get back on the rails.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think it's official now.  This email showed up yesterday.

This is the attached note.

Note-Old parts out of stock.pdf

What is official? That letter did not address the fact that every Railsound board went out of stock in a day. Where did they go? Into the trash?

The one reason the last two years…I was busy collecting parts and not new engine. Frankly, My train buying days are over - why bother if I can’t get parts …..

@iguanaman3 posted:

What is official? That letter did not address the fact that every Railsound board went out of stock in a day. Where did they go? Into the trash?

That's what happened to the RS items in my shopping cart on the website -- POOF!!!

Fingers crossed someone comes up with a solution for the now "obsolete" electronics. At least ERR is still available as an option to repair/upgrade TMCC stuff. Pre RCMC Legacy is kinda screwed now, unfortunately.

25 year old TMCC engines have been obsoleted with a stroke of the Lionel’s computer system with taking all electronic boards/parts out of their inventory. Bottom line is they want us to buy their new engines.
I stopped buying new engines about 15 years ago especially when boards were converted from the simple 24 pin modular boards to a one board set up that has control and sounds in one.
I have a lot of original TMCC engines from the 2000 era from Korea Brass who produced beautiful engines for Lionel.
Just my 2 cents!

@Ted Bertiger posted:

25 year old TMCC engines have been obsoleted with a stroke of the Lionel’s computer system with taking all electronic boards/parts out of their inventory. Bottom line is they want us to buy their new engines.
I stopped buying new engines about 15 years ago especially when boards were converted from the simple 24 pin modular boards to a one board set up that has control and sounds in one.
I have a lot of original TMCC engines from the 2000 era from Korea Brass who produced beautiful engines for Lionel.
Just my 2 cents!

Ted,

I certainly second your thoughts. I’m done….enough engines. I’m going to downsize soon. Selling off a vast collection. I will keep a few engines…..Goodbye lionel….it’s been a long run…..imho - A new leader is in order….

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

They didn't leave them behind, they dropped them in a bucket.

John, what’s the deal with the universal dcds board. By the way - if you can tell me the part number of the board on the sd70. I can look to see if I have one laying around. I assembled 2 Katy’s from the Lionel parts auction from pieces….at might have one….

Shawn,

I will third your thoughts. Same here! I have enough trains bought over the years and am starting to think about what I want to sell off and keep a decent sized collection. Just sold my Lionel 700E from 1990 for 1/2 what I paid back then and the OGR buyer was a happy customer. More pieces to get posted soon.
I am not in the market for $800 Lionel legacy switchers or $1700 T1’s or $3000 Acela sets. No thank you! My TMCC stuff from the 2000’s are simply beautiful pieces, well made and run fine!

Just my added 3 cents! Inflation!

@Ted Bertiger posted:

Shawn,

I will third your thoughts. Same here! I have enough trains bought over the years and am starting to think about what I want to sell off and keep a decent sized collection. Just sold my Lionel 700E from 1990 for 1/2 what I paid back then and the OGR buyer was a happy customer. More pieces to get posted soon.
I am not in the market for $800 Lionel legacy switchers or $1700 T1’s or $3000 Acela sets. No thank you! My TMCC stuff from the 2000’s are simply beautiful pieces, well made and run fine!

Just my added 3 cents! Inflation!

You brought up one point. imagine spending 2500.00 and then winding up in this parts situation. There are some of us - repairing and tinkering is a big part of the hobby …besides I bought a slice of pizza and a can of soda in Manhattan today. It cost me 10 dollars……

I was thinking the other day. I had 3 sets running on a floor layout….and it satisfied me as a child….why do I need a museum of trains??

It would be one thing if the boards were sold out and they cannot make more.  It seems like they just got rid of them all.

@Ray Lombardo posted:

It would be one thing if the boards were sold out and they cannot make more.  It seems like they just got rid of them all.

Less work during the 50% off parts?  Years ago they sold off all the VL Big Boy parts.  Seen a few at York in stripped down conditions but thinking to myself, "I bet there are some parts on there that someone is looking for on the Lionel site".  I know you can't keep everything but this does seem odd that poof they're gone.

@MartyE posted:

Less work during the 50% off parts?  Years ago they sold off all the VL Big Boy parts.  Seen a few at York in stripped down conditions but thinking to myself, "I bet there are some parts on there that someone is looking for on the Lionel site".  I know you can't keep everything but this does seem odd that poof they're gone.

Yes, I agree.  Generally, I presume that people act rationally and for companies in this business/hobby, my experience is that most of them are also hobbyists and wouldn't go out of their way to screw the customer, quite the opposite typically in fact - most are good, reasonable people.  But I struggle to come up with what the potential rationale for this could be.  

@MartyE posted:

Less work during the 50% off parts?

Than why have a parts sale???  If they are overwhelmed why bother but thank you Lionel for doing the sale.

@superwarp1 posted:

Than why have a parts sale???  If they are overwhelmed why bother but thank you Lionel for doing the sale.

Dang I forgot the after that line didn't I?

What parts sale? Lol - Basically, nothing available for my needs. What a joke.They should cancel the thing.

@RickO posted:

Ever since the old CTO. CSM. and audio engineer departed. Lionel has felt more like a "toy making company" than a model train manufacturer.

This is why I have no interest in Lionchief 2, 3, 4.7.... or whatever and certainly not that base 3.

There seems constant reinvention of things, either because of lack consideration of the past , or not enough anticipation of the future.

Meanwhile, the things that always worked, paint, audio boards, gearboxes ...., have hiccups along the way.

RickO makes a good point. So Lionel has dumped the parts for TMCC and early Legacy. Who's to say that in another 20 years or so, they won't dump all parts for current Legacy and even the current LionChief, since by then, another new control system or two, will be in place?

Lionel could be starting a vicious cycle, so that if you don't purchase its new, current locomotives, you'll be out of luck if your engines are more than 20 years old. Maybe they plan on dumping old parts that are more than 20 years old each year now, moving forward. Looks like those of us who struggle to keep our older locomotives running are losing the battle from here on out.

a stupid question .... is my Black Vision Line Hudson on the "no parts available" list? that was the most expensive "toy train" which I have ever purchased!  Please tell me that it's not true!

@john in western pa posted:

a stupid question .... is my Black Vision Line Hudson on the "no parts available" list? that was the most expensive "toy train" which I have ever purchased!  Please tell me that it's not true!

You can get the RCMC and engine electronics, no sound boards but they have been NLA for a while, at least the RS6 board has. If you loose sound you might be able to use some other Railsounds lite board but it won’t have cab number and road name specific talk.

The Vision 700E uses second generation Legacy boards.

Pete

@shawn posted:

What parts sale? Lol - Basically, nothing available for my needs. What a joke.They should cancel the thing.

So because you don't need or want anything they should cancel it?

@Norton posted:

You can get the RCMC and engine electronics, no sound boards but they have been NLA for a while, at least the RS6 board has. If you loose sound you might be able to use some other Railsounds lite board but it won’t have cab number and road name specific talk.

The Vision 700E uses second generation Legacy boards.

Pete

From my understanding, the RS6 boards are programmable. I think that's the purpose of the little 6 pin pico-blade connector. Up until a few days ago (a week?) RS6 boards were still be sold. I received one in July, which is currently on its second visit back to Lionel for the correct programming.

@Yellowstone Special posted:

RickO makes a good point. So Lionel has dumped the parts for TMCC and early Legacy. Who's to say that in another 20 years or so, they won't dump all parts for current Legacy and even the current LionChief, since by then, another new control system or two, will be in place?

Lionel could be starting a vicious cycle, so that if you don't purchase its new, current locomotives, you'll be out of luck if your engines are more than 20 years old. Maybe they plan on dumping old parts that are more than 20 years old each year now, moving forward. Looks like those of us who struggle to keep our older locomotives running are losing the battle from here on out.

Having no support for these older TMCC and early Legacy locomotives is definitely concerning. That said, it's conceivable that they could offer an RCMC board that supports the older magnetic based Odyssey system or uses back-EMF like the ERR boards. The serial output could be modified to support older RailSounds boards.

It's also a possibility that they could offer a new programming for the RS Lite boards that will allow them to work with older R2LC and R4LC boards. Hopefully they will also provide them with the RS 5.5 and 6.0 sound sets that are now no longer available.

I predict that either Lionel/ERR will make available parts that at least keep these locos functioning and sounding like something similar, or will permit third parties to make such parts.  Probably won't please everyone, definitely won't be cheap but will meet many people's needs.  Makes no sense not to do these things, given the long standing loyalty of the Lionel hobbyists.