@AGHRMatt posted:I had wondered about that. I remember hearing that Pittman motors that we use for our locomotives aren't even for model locomotives. My understanding is they're designed for industrial equipment, printers, etc., but happen to be the right size for O scale steam locomotives. I pulled a motor out of a broken printer years ago and wondered it it could be used for a model, but never tried it out.
Depends on the printer but most are 32-36v motors.
Pete
@Norton posted:Blue, you really need to pull the shell and see whats going on. Its only three screws.
Pete
Agreed.......but I don't want to do anything that would potentially void the warranty. The selling dealer referred me directly to Rich Foster at MTH, and I will contact him tomorrow.
@tom21pa posted:Yea, it went to MTH and came back the same, funny thing is it's silent in reverse.
That’s not something odd, ……many times, a flywheel can move just a ehhh out of the way when changing directions, and a noise can go away,……sounds like your in the same boat as BC, if you don’t wish to void your warranty ……some of us belong to warranty voiders anonymous……voiding warranties before the ink is dry ….😁
Pat
@harmonyards posted:That’s not something odd, ……many times, a flywheel can move just a ehhh out of the way when changing directions, and a noise can go away,……sounds like your in the same boat as BC, if you don’t wish to void your warranty ……some of us belong to warranty voiders anonymous……voiding warranties before the ink is dry ….😁
Pat
I may have gun runner john take a peek at it. If its an easy fix, I don't mind having a pro open it up
@tom21pa posted:I may have gun runner john take a peek at it. If its an easy fix, I don't mind having a pro open it up
Sounds like a solid plan,….
Pat
The B&M Pacific is now running a little better. It's still a bit jerky at slow speeds, but not nearly as bad as the MEC Pacific. And now, the MEC appears to be completely dead. I put it back on the track to try it again, and it still ran very poorly at low speed, and then made a strange noise and just quit. It has already gone back to the selling dealer for the slow speed issue, and the dealer returned it to me saying nothing is wrong with it. Now, it seems to be dead, so I sure hope MTH honors their warranty.
I'd send the MEC Pacific back for a refund if they can't fix it, I have no idea what is going on with that one! I have heard of chuffing without the flywheel moving, but I forget the exact circumstances. Needless to say, it's broken!
This quote in reference to 5-Volt PS2 boards "chuffing in neutral" is from the MTH Service Notes. I wonder whether the problem has come back from the dead.
PS2 Steam Chuffing in Neutral
We have found that some models exhibit chuffing in neutral. To eliminate this problem place a 10K
ohm resistor in line with the orange wire going to the tach reader. This applies to 5 volt Ps2
equipped models only. The 3 volt Ps2 Board has the 10K ohm resistor on the board.
@700E posted:This quote in reference to 5-Volt PS2 boards "chuffing in neutral" is from the MTH Service Notes. I wonder whether the problem has come back from the dead.
PS2 Steam Chuffing in Neutral
We have found that some models exhibit chuffing in neutral. To eliminate this problem place a 10K
ohm resistor in line with the orange wire going to the tach reader. This applies to 5 volt Ps2
equipped models only. The 3 volt Ps2 Board has the 10K ohm resistor on the board.
Would this account for the fact that the loco doesn't start to roll until I advance it to 5 mph, and at that point it lurches backward, rolls about a foot, then stops again?
@700E posted:This quote in reference to 5-Volt PS2 boards "chuffing in neutral" is from the MTH Service Notes. I wonder whether the problem has come back from the dead.
PS2 Steam Chuffing in Neutral
We have found that some models exhibit chuffing in neutral. To eliminate this problem place a 10K
ohm resistor in line with the orange wire going to the tach reader. This applies to 5 volt Ps2
equipped models only. The 3 volt Ps2 Board has the 10K ohm resistor on the board.
The PS/3 tach reader and interface are totally different than the PS/2, I'd say it's highly unlikely. PS/2 has an analog signal from the sensor on that orange wire, PS/3 has a digital signal from the tach reader.
PS/3 has been around for 10 years+, and this issue has not been reported.
@BlueComet400 posted:Would this account for the fact that the loco doesn't start to roll until I advance it to 5 mph, and at that point it lurches backward, rolls about a foot, then stops again?
Truthfully, the only way to truly diagnose this is in person, and I'm sure the locomotive is going to have to come apart.
On these models the PS3 tach reader is mounted below the motor facing upwards. There is not a lot of room and so the rear most set of through hole solder connectors are removed from the tach reader board. A little too much solder on the tach reader and it can contact the frame (ground) and bad things can happen.
That would be yet another reason for a return trip for a refund or repair.
Two Smooth Older Diesels, Two Jerky Newer Diesels
~~~~~
~~~~~
Hi, can't wait to see what the issue is I would take a top off engine put engine on roller stand and watch operation in forward and reverse I would manually turn flywheel in both directions slowly and see if there is bent side rods or any type of binding then repair and lube what was binding then retest engine, also what is the current draw in forward and then reverse I would suspect the amps higher when trying to run forward then reverse!
p.s. I've seen some motors run smother in one direction then the other sometimes shaft is moving up and down too much play in shaft movement, I recently had a dc motor doing exactly that and had to add a spacer nylon washer to stop shaft movement then motor ran perfectly and start and stop at slow speeds! also sometimes this is due to poor brush wear
Alan
@Alan Mancus posted:Hi, can't wait to see what the issue is I would take a top off engine put engine on roller stand and watch operation in forward and reverse I would manually turn flywheel in both directions slowly and see if there is bent side rods or any type of binding then repair and lube what was binding then retest engine, also what is the current draw in forward and then reverse I would suspect the amps higher when trying to run forward then reverse!
p.s. I've seen some motors run smother in one direction then the other sometimes shaft is moving up and down too much play in shaft movement, I recently had a dc motor doing exactly that and had to add a spacer nylon washer to stop shaft movement then motor ran perfectly and start and stop at slow speeds! also sometimes this is due to poor brush wear
Alan
It’s a mute point now Alan, …..she be dead,….& dead locomotives tell no tales,…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:That’s not something odd, ……many times, a flywheel can move just a ehhh out of the way when changing directions, and a noise can go away,……sounds like your in the same boat as BC, if you don’t wish to void your warranty ……some of us belong to warranty voiders anonymous……voiding warranties before the ink is dry ….😁
The good thing is, being an MTH ASC, I don't void the warranty by popping the top. 
I have 3 of the new Pacific's :
20-3818-1 slowest I can get it to move is 3 mph using DCS using the handheld remote with no load lass than 10 minutes run time and it does jerk a very little.
20-3819-1 slowest I can get it to move is 3 mph using DCS handheld with 7 older K Line Heavyweights and 1 K Line Business Car and it runs pretty smooth with less than 30 minutes run time, Power draw is high about 4 amps but the cars are old and do not have LED Lighting installed.
20-3820-1 slowest I can get it to run is 3 mph using DCS handheld with 5 New Atlas formerly MTH Premier Heavyweights cars and it runs pretty smooth less than about 30. The power draw is less than 2 amps but all the cars have factory LED Lighting.
I feel as these locomotives break in more the performance will improve.
It could also be something as simple as a brake shoe rubbing the traction tire.
I agree with you Pat but wanted everyone to know that repair motor is also an option! Alan
@harmonyards posted:We can certainly discuss a motor swap upgrade if you’d like ……I’m almost positive the P47 Pacifics will take the larger 60mm motor, which is a good thing, …supplies of the 55mm 9433 Pittmans are getting kinda tight until I find another source…Lou can verify the P47’s I believe ….I know the PS4 Pacifics won’t take a big motor at all, ….I think they’re relegated to a 9432 short Pittman ….
Pat
Pat what all is involved in this motor swap? Is it a straight up replacement or are there other modifications involved? Thanks
@RJT posted:Pat what all is involved in this motor swap? Is it a straight up replacement or are there other modifications involved? Thanks
Rick, it’s literally a bolt in swap on the MTH engines,…..when MTH went shopping for other motor vendors, they kept the same bolt pattern, motor shaft diameter, and length. The three favorite flavors of Pittmans used in most MTH Premier steam are 9432, 9433, & 9434…….length being the only dictator…..for a short period, MTH used SPG motors. Those motors are a carbon copy of the Pittman, complete with splayed segments, which is the hallmark of a low cogging or almost zero cog…..the only slight hiccup in doing a DIY swap would be if the Pittman has a different thread for the mounts, …..but even that’s a simple fix,….
Pat
I had planned to give an update on this thread and thought I'd have to dig fairly deep to find it, but here it is, back on the surface.
After being referred to MTH by the selling dealer for one of the new Pacifics, I ended up dealing directly with Rich at MTH about this, and he asked me to send both of them back to him, which I did, about a month ago. They arrived back to me late last week, both with a diagnosis of a loose flywheel. With my limited knowledge of how DCS works, that still didn't make sense to me because unless I have this wrong, the puffing of smoke and chuffing are triggered by the stripes on the flywheel as they pass the flywheel sensor. The videos I posted here clearly show that the flywheel was not turning, so no stripes were going past the sensor.
Upon opening the boxes, the MEC tender sustained more damage in shipping (it had already been damaged after coming back from the selling dealer), the B&M Pacific didn't run at all in DCS mode, and barely ran in conventional. Instead of startup in neutral, it did a jackrabbit start in forward with no sounds and was unresponsive to any transformer controls other than the throttle. They are both now back at MTH, and I await my refund.
Since catching the command control bug, I have had several older locos (both MTH PS1 and Williams Crown Edition) converted to PS3 over the last 5 years, and they all run great; I have also purchased a few NOS PS-2 Pittman-equipped locos in the last few years, and they also run extremely well at all speeds, regardless of what they are pulling. If re-powering a brand-new loco (and thereby voiding its warranty) is what it takes to make it run as it should, count me out.
@BlueComet400 posted:I had planned to give an update on this thread and thought I'd have to dig fairly deep to find it, but here it is, back on the surface.
After being referred to MTH by the selling dealer for one of the new Pacifics, I ended up dealing directly with Rich at MTH about this, and he asked me to send both of them back to him, which I did, about a month ago. They arrived back to me late last week, both with a diagnosis of a loose flywheel. With my limited knowledge of how DCS works, that still didn't make sense to me because unless I have this wrong, the puffing of smoke and chuffing are triggered by the stripes on the flywheel as they pass the flywheel sensor. The videos I posted here clearly show that the flywheel was not turning, so no stripes were going past the sensor.
Upon opening the boxes, the MEC tender sustained more damage in shipping (it had already been damaged after coming back from the selling dealer), the B&M Pacific didn't run at all in DCS mode, and barely ran in conventional. Instead of startup in neutral, it did a jackrabbit start in forward with no sounds and was unresponsive to any transformer controls other than the throttle. They are both now back at MTH, and I await my refund.
Since catching the command control bug, I have had several older locos (both MTH PS1 and Williams Crown Edition) converted to PS3 over the last 5 years, and they all run great; I have also purchased a few NOS PS-2 Pittman-equipped locos in the last few years, and they also run extremely well at all speeds, regardless of what they are pulling. If re-powering a brand-new loco (and thereby voiding its warranty) is what it takes to make it run as it should, count me out.
Well that just totally sucks, …..just out of curiosity, did you attempt to run the MEC, or was the damage too great to the tender to even bother?……I’m sorry you had a bad experience,…..
Pat
Pat, I did run it for a few minutes, and it seemed ok, but the fact that the damage was worse than when I sent it back to MTH (the broken coupler lift bar wasn't replaced but was instead glued back together and the ladder was bent even more than before) combined with the poor performance of the B&M Pacific, was the final straw. There was also a small black plastic washer / spacer inside the MEC Pacific's box when I opened it. I have no idea what it was for but finding a loose part in the box after it had just come back from having warranty repairs didn't exactly evoke a great deal of confidence. MTH will have to do better than this to get my hard-earned in the future. Rich was nothing but pleasant to deal with, and I appreciate his efforts to pick up the slack when the selling dealer of the MEC Pacific essentially washed his hands of me.
@BlueComet400 posted:Pat, I did run it for a few minutes, and it seemed ok, but the fact that the damage was worse than when I sent it back to MTH (the broken coupler lift bar wasn't replaced but was instead glued back together and the ladder was bent even more than before) combined with the poor performance of the B&M Pacific, was the final straw. There was also a small black plastic washer / spacer inside the MEC Pacific's box when I opened it. I have no idea what it was for but finding a loose part in the box after it had just come back from having warranty repairs didn't exactly evoke a great deal of confidence. MTH will have to do better than this to get my hard-earned in the future. Rich was nothing but pleasant to deal with, and I appreciate his efforts to pick up the slack when the selling dealer of the MEC Pacific essentially washed his hands of me.
Yeah, that’s definitely no bueno, ……I’m sorry you had a rough go on these,…..
Pat
@BlueComet400 posted:MTH will have to do better than this to get my hard-earned in the future.
Sure, but who do you go to for better QC? 
@RJT the best way to test any loco is running light, i.e., not pulling a load. The weight of the trailing consist, and in some cases its momentum, will mask potential jerkiness. For a real challenge, try running the loco from a straight section into a right circular curve* of minimum rated diameter. MTH says these new Pacifics should operate on O42 curves. But they were derived from MTH's very first scale offering way back in 1994, at which time they were rated for O31 curves. MTH wanted to sell trains, and O31 is what most folks had at the time, including me.
The problem is, these are heavy locos. Historically, MTH has gauged its wheels wide with little "wiggle room," and placed rubber tires on both sides of the rear axle. Thus, the wheels cannot skid to acommodate the difference in length between the inside and outside rails. (This is a much bigger problem on O31 or O42 than it is on O72!) Check your ammeter... When the loco enters a tight sectional curve, there is a rapid, significant increase in friction. The speed control has to really be on its toes or you will see a hesitation, followed by a surge. Watch closely. Frankly I would be surprised if any of your locos could complete this difficult test smoothly and realistically at 3 scale mph.
In the days before speed control, I experimented a lot, and concluded that the Pittman motor had to be turning at least 800 rpm to avoid a noticeable slowdown. USRA Pacifics, at least the first ones, were geared at 16:1, which is surprisingly toylike for what was billed as a scale model. The drivetrain was self-locking, and the "flywheel" was too tiny to confer any meaningful coasting. Eight-hundred motor rpm translates to about 10 scale mph. I was disappointed, because my uncle's postwar 773 could negotiate the O31 turns more smoothly, and at a slower speed. So much for progress! Slap on the band-aid of speed control circa 2001, and now you can get around that curve at 3-4 mph, but with a subtle hesitation and surge as described above. The preferable answer would have been to double the gear ratio, adding a bigger flywheel in the bargain.
Things might improve a little with break-in running, but given my experience, I wouldn't expect better performance than what you're seeing.
*We mostly use track systems where each piece has constant radius and makes up part of a circle. In real life, track curves have a spiral easement. If you have the space and are willing to mess with flex track, "eased" curves would create a gradual increase in friction and give the speed control system more time to react.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Sure, but who do you go to for better QC?
I think I'll stick to converting/upgrading older equipment. That has worked very well so far. I have a K Line J1e Hudson, and a Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson and Mohawk by Lionel, all of which seem to be great candidates for upgrades.
@BlueComet400, yes, I agree with you, K-Line and older TMCC Lionel are great engines and upgrades make them even better. Harmonyards did my K-Line hudson, it’s my favorite steamer. It does take him some time, but it’s well worth the wait. Happy Railroading Everyone 
@leapinlarry posted:@BlueComet400, yes, I agree with you, K-Line and older TMCC Lionel are great engines and upgrades make them even better.
Don't forget the MTH Premier steam before PS/2, I used to buy them for peanuts and upgrade them. I sold a lot of them, but I still have a few of the upgrades left for my stable. 
@BlueComet400 posted:I think I'll stick to converting/upgrading older equipment. That has worked very well so far. I have a K Line J1e Hudson, and a Commodore Vanderbilt Hudson and Mohawk by Lionel, all of which seem to be great candidates for upgrades.
Sound decision.
John, between you and Marty Fitzhenry (he did my first conversion, which probably ended up being one of his last
), I have learned that the older equipment, when placed in the right hands, can be upgraded to perform very well. The MTH Hudson you converted for me a few years ago was an old Pittman-equipped PS1 loco, and it's a great performer. Marty always advised me to stick with the older equipment and convert it as opposed to buying brand-new.
It's a shame that the new equipment seems to be so unreliable. For those who don't mind tinkering with it, there are some nice new offerings out there, but if an item is brand-new, there should not be a need for tinkering or swapping motors. That, in my opinion, is extreme.
@BlueComet400 posted:It's a shame that the new equipment seems to be so unreliable. For those who don't mind tinkering with it, there are some nice new offerings out there, but if an item is brand-new, there should not be a need for tinkering or swapping motors. That, in my opinion, is extreme.
John, I'm not a big fan of tinkering with a product that set me back four figures. I might do a very minor fix to avoid sending it back, but I do mean minor.
Running MTH PS2 and 3 in DCS. Some almost 20 years. Never had any operating issues. Always smooth even when creeping. Perhaps jumping both outside rails and soldering all the track joints might be the key to successful operation? Also a carpeted room with A/C and heat.
As for motors, the first silver subway set is the only power unit stronger than everything else. Think I have a mix of 75 diesels - subways now.
I have had some software bugs mostly with lighted number boards and head lights going out during and after lash up modes.
Just to close the loop on this: Both locos ended up going back to MTH for repair; the dealer who sold me the MEC Pacific referred me directly to Rich at MTH instead of taking it back for repair himself. At Rich's request, I sent both locos back to MTH; the repairs were not successful (diagnosis was loose flywheel for both) and one of the locos sustained more damage in transit coming back to me, so I returned them for the last time to Rich at the Springfield show last month.
One of the locos came from Mr. Muffin's, and they issued my refund within a matter of days of the return. Kudos to them for doing the right thing; they are a class act. I wish I could say the same thing about the other dealer, but I can't; I returned the MEC Pacific 4 weeks ago today, and still don't have my refund.
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