MTH F-3 Motor

Ricky S posted:

Hello,

I have a MTH Santa Fe F-3 With Proto-

Sound 3.0, and it is an A-B-A Set.

An item number would be VERY helpful in answering your question.

I recently got a lot of passenger cars to go with it,

What do you mean by "a lot of passenger cars", i.e. how many are you trying to pull, and what sort of a grade/curves do you have?

but the engine can’t pull them all because only one A Unit is powered. Is there a way to add a motor to the extra A or B unit so it acts like a lash up? Thank you for your help. 

Ricky

Hello,

The Item Number is 30-20279-1. I have 6 Railking Passenger Cars. I have MTH RealTrax O-42 and O-72 curves. I do not know the exact slope of the elevation, but the max height is 2.5 Inches and the approach / decline is 66 inches on both sides. I was also considering getting a separate A unit and lashing them up. Thanks for you help,

Ricky

Here are some pictures. 

Well, the lead A-Units does have two motors, one over each truck. I must admit that I'm a bit surprised that the single powered unit is unable to pull so few cars. Are the wheels slipping/spinning, or does it simply stall? I'll assume you are operating in conventional, so what transformer are you using?

Hi,

The wheels are just slipping around the curves and not moving. I am using the full DCS system with a Z-4000 Transformer. Thanks,

Ricky

Your calculated grade is 2.5/66 x 100= 3.8%. This is a bit steep. 

Have you checked the traction tires on the wheels of the powered A unit? if any of those are missing, you will get wheel slippage like you are suggesting even on a flat grade. 

If your traction tires are good and you are only seeing slippage on the grade, then you likely will need some additional motor power to handle that grade, or you will need to lower the grade. 

Hi,

Yes, that is about the grade. I re did the Grade to make sure that the engines would be able to make it up it without any problems a few weeks ago. I guess it didn’t work out. Is there a way to add a motor or two in the other A unit? Thanks for the tips on the traction tires. The engine is 1 1/2 years old. Maybe they do have to be replaced. Thank you,

Ricky

Your better off getting another power A unit and running as MU/Lashup.  The cost to convert via individual parts would be more than buying another RK F-3.  G

Hi,

Thank you. Do you know where I could find one? Thank you,

Ricky

Before adding a motor or buying another A unit, i would look elsewhere for the possible cause of the problem. The reason i'm saying this is: i have a RK PA that i downgraded to a single motor the will pull a RK B unit, an express reefer, and 6 K-Line 13" passenger cars up a 4.17% grade (Gargraves track) effortlessly. The level approach to the grade is an 072" curve and the level exit is a Gargraves turnout.

Always try solving a problem by looking for the simplest and least expensive solution first. Remember it's a lot easier to save money than it is to earn it.

Hi,

That’s a good idea. I will look at the traction tires and see if they should be replaced. I will also see if I can add traction tires if they are grooved. Thank you for your help. 

Ricky 

Hi,

Here are what the traction tires look like. Should these be replaced? Thank you,

Ricky

Ricky-

Your pictures didn’t come through 

Ricky, 

You mentioned in an earlier post that it’s on the curves where you get  stuck and spin wheels. Are your curved tracks part of the elevated track?

if they are, Then it is possible that your slipping is due to un-even track. You could prove this out by placing thin material under one side of the curved track to bring both sides level. 

Hi,

My elevation is removable, so I removed it from the layout, and there is still the same problem. I will re send the pictures. Thank you,

Ricky

OK, Ricky,

If i understand what you are saying is that this loco has the same problem on a level surface. If this is so, there is clearly something wrong with the engine. A simple test would be to remove the engine from the track, turn it upside down (in an engine cradle or on a towel). With the power off take one wire and run it from the center rail to one of the pick-up rollers, and then another one from the outside rail to a metal spot on the frame (perhaps that ladder shown in your pic). Holding the engine steady turn the power on and observe if the wheels in both trucks are turning, turning in the same direction, and at the same speed. Let us know what happens.

Hi,

Thank you. I will do this tomorrow afternoon. Thank you,

Ricky

Ricky,

Based in the picture you posted, I’m guessing is that your problem is the amount of oil/lubricant on the parts of the truck. I see what appears to be excess oil on all parts of the truck. 

If the engine runs fine by itself and only is haveibg problems under heavy loads (many cars in your case) my bet is that your wheels are too oily to have traction to the rails. Clean them up and I bet you will have much better luck. 

Hi,

Thank you. How do I clean the wheels and trucks? Thank you,

Ricky

To start, take a dry towel (would be best if you had a lint free one) but for this any small towel or rag will work as long as it’s clean. 

Begin by wiping all the flat surfaces of the trucks and wheels and the pickup rollers for the middle rails.  

Next you will need some rubbing alcohol.  You will use this to just clean the wheels. The easiest way to do this is to power up the engine while it’s upside down and press a small part of the towel that has been dipped in the rubbing alcohol against just the wheel surface as it rotates. For best results, you will need some alligator clip test leads to do this. However, if you don’t have those, you can do it the slow way. This would be to clean the surface of all the wheels as best you can using q-Tips dipped in the rubbing alcohol.  Then put the engine on the track and power it up slowly so that it moves only one inch or so and take itt off and do more cleaning. Rubbing alcohol isn’t good for your traction tires, but neither is being covered in oil. So you can either replace them after the trucks and wheels have been completely cleaned with oil or try and clean them first with the rubbing alcohol. 

Something to watch out for though. If there is a lot of oil on the wheels, there may be some hiding under the traction tire. If this is the case, then just cleaning the surface of the tire may not be good enough. You may need to remove the tires and clean everything (including the inside and outside of the tires) and then put them back on.  

You don’t need to clean the oil off of the gears. That’s one of the places that you do want to be oiled, but with the amount you have right now, you shouldn’t need to add any more for a long time.

When you finally have the engine all cleaned up, you will want to clean your track as well. use a clean part of the towel and some more rubbing alcohol and wipe down all of your track. 

Fianlly, if you are serious about this, there are better cleaners to use other than “off the shelf” rubbing alcohol. But if you haven’t done this before, this would be a good start. Just use it sparingly. You definitely down want this dripping everywhere as you do it. You only want it on the areas you are trying to clean.  

Hi,

Wow. Very detailed. Thank you very much. I will do this this weekend. Part of this might be smoke fluid. Does this solution still apply? Thank you,

Ricky

Yes, this will still work if that is all smoke fluid. 

Hi,

Thank you. I’ll let you know what happens soon. Thank you,

Ricky

Hi,

I replaced all 4 traction tires and cleaned the wheels without rubbing alcohol, and it is still slipping. I have a project called Bull Frog Snot. It is a universal traction tire that is applied like glue. What should I do? Thank you,

Ricky

Ricky,

You can't catch a break, can you?   

At this point I think I would start looking at the individual cars.  Starting with the unpowered F3 units. Do the unpowered units and the passenger cars all roll well when un-coupled from each other? Compare each car to the others and make sure you don't have some car (or cars) that have excessing drag.

once you check them all individually start coupling them together one by one and make sure the entire consist of unpowered cars rolls smoothly through the entire track plan.  

Ricky,

Good advice from ENGINEERJON above. I made (probably incorrect) the assumption you had already tried the loco without it pulling anything. If his suggested test shows nothing then go back to back to my suggestion for bench testing the motors. About a year ago i had a customer's MTH SantaFe AA and discovered one of the can motors was cogging. That it was behaving like an old 3pole HO motor of the `50's and `60's. I had over 40+ hours in the job (which i couldn't charge the customer, and ultimately couldn'r get to run properly; returned it to him at no charge even absorbing the shipping and unrelated parts i'd installed).

I'm just wondering if one motor is not pulling its share of the load forcing the other one to slip at times?

The best you can do is go through the process of elimination. Good luck

Hi,

That sounds right. A few weeks ago, I heard a strange noise coming from the engine, and I never knew what it was. This could be the problem. Do you know How to fix it? I will try more fixes tomorrow. Thank you,

Ricky

If you take off the shell, you can wiggle the motors by hand and see see if either of the motors is loose on its mount.

Hi,

How will I know if it is loose and how do I make it right? Thank you,

Ricky

You will know it is loose if it moves relative to the saddle that it sits upon or relative to the gears/wheels. Grab the motor with one hand, the truck assembly with the other hand and wiggle them. If the motor is loose on the truck, the gears will mesh improperly. If the motor is loose, first look at and tighten the screw that comes up from the bottom of the truck.

 Look at the seam between the motor and the saddle it fits onto. If it is loose there, remove the screw in the bottom of the truck and separate the motor/saddle assembly from the wheels/gears assembly. There are two very tiny screws that attach the motor to the saddle and you can see them from the bottom, once the motor and truck are separated.  l put some fingernail polish on the threads so they do not work loose again.

Hi,

Thank you. I will look at this tomorrow. Thank you,

Ricky

Hi,

I have been really busy lately. I will try to do this solution soon. Thank you,

Ricky