MTH PREMIER NEW YORK CENTRAL BALDWIN RF-16 SHARKNOSE A-B DIESEL SET 20-2294-1

This is the battery in the engine now.

I moved this topic to the proper category....perhaps you will now get some responses!

Personally, I would replace it with a new battery, because a battery that old is iffy.  MTH stopped making the 5-volt boards about 15 years ago.  I would not invest in any more expensive replacement for a battery, since the 5-volt boards are dying from old age at a prodigious rate.

Thank you for your reply. I do have new in packaging replacement batteries but since they have no date on them, they could be just as old.

As Barry has suggested, as we'll as others on the forum, the best test for a battery is to turn off the power and the sound should continue for 6-7 seconds. It did, multiple times with the existing battery and with the new in the pack battery. 

When I took off the shell, I expected to see one of the early white 9V's and was ready to replace it. The engine is probably 15 years old. Impossible to say if the battery is the original.

Time and time again forum members have said, the PS2 5V electronics are a time bomb. If it has a white battery, swap it out, run it, cross your fingers, and enjoy it till it goes.

So I guess the only real question is, does it make sense to just replace the battery, even though the testing for both batteries was exactly the same?

Thanks again!

While that's the newer battery, If it's been stored for many years, I'd still be seriously tempted to replace it.

Sure that's the safest way to go.

So I'll ask again but a little differently. If the green battery is still in the package, unopened, even though it may be 10 years old or more, since there is no way to tell as far as I know, that's the safer bet? Why?

And Barry's test, turn off the power and if the sound continues for 7 seconds, the battery is ok?

Sorry for being so dense.

I've lost 3 MTH PS2 engines in 15 years, probably due to my concerns mentioned above. The last one about 5-7 years ago. At that time and before I don't believe the 5V/battery concerns where common knowledge.  If my questions here are clearly answered by trusted experts, I'm sure it will help extend the life of a lot of our engines.

Can anyone answer, is there a shelf life on these 5V batteries still in the original packaging? Or is it just a crap shoot?

 

All batteries have a finite shelf life.  I'm not sure exactly what the shelf life of an NiMh battery is, but it does have some limit.

First of all, thank you John for your replies.

I hate to do it but, I'll try asking again, is Barry's 7 second test for battery safe usage valid?

So I guess it doesn't pay to buy too many batteries as spares, since WITHOUT A DATE on the battery itself, you could be purchasing 10 - 15 year old batteries which are no good! Correct?

Probably shouldn't have been so aggressive with my MTH locomotive purchases.

Thanks again.

The 7-second test is valid.  But it does not indicate how long a battery will live.

It is not worthwhile to stock up on batteries,

thanks!

Give the battery a good charge and use it!    If it goes bad in a month or a week or a year THEN buy a new battery. From what I understand, a dead battery won't harm PS2 electronics - it will scramble Proto 1 systems however.

If that's not correct, some one please chime in...

I tried doing research on NiMh battery shelf life, charging capacity over time, etc. I'm no expert and it's all mumble jumble to me. Virtually a waste of time in research.

Until someone comes up with an iron clad procedure for running these PS2 engines, I'll continue to do what I've been doing. Replace all original white 9 volt batteries with what I believe to be a fully charged 9 volt green battery. Run the 7 second sound test suggested by Barry, if it passes, run the engine, cross my fingers and enjoy it until it eventually blows! Most of the comments I have heard over the years is that they all will eventually blow and nothing lasts forever.

Maybe it's not as doom & gloom as all that, but I'm sure I'm not the only one afraid to run an engine because I fear a $350.00+ repair in the future.

Thank you to everyone who has offered there suggestions.

Joe

Anyone reading this post will probably understand my concerns. Most of us have spent thousands of dollars on our hobby, some many thousands. For most of us it's all been HARD EARNED MONEY! I doubt anyone reading this would casually burn a 10 dollar bill to ashes. That said, I don't plan on spending too much more on engines at this stage. My goal is to keep what I have, running as long as possible, and that's my quest. I hope any info accumulated hear will help others besides myself.

I'll be slowly testing those engines that I haven't run in some time, doing what little I can to insure some extended life. I've ask a number of questions here and have gotten some answers. All have been specifically directed to MTH PS2 engines, 5 volt & 3 volt.  I believe I've been fairly specific and have gotten some direct answers, and some, not so much. One question I have asked repeatedly, hear and in other posts. The question has yet to be answered. With DCS, when scrolling through engine info, battery life is one category. Most of the time I'll get a reading of battery: OK, sometimes battery: low, just now a reading battery: Hi, for the first time.  Is battery Hi as good as battery OK? ARE THESE READINGS ACURATE??? Do they mean anything?

Thanks again!

Ironman, my advice, based on experience over 15 years with DCS, is don't worry about the battery.  I've had them last over 10 years.  If, after you've been running awhile, the sounds don't stay on for 4+ seconds, maybe your battery is showing its age.  Worst that has ever happened to me when a 12-years old battery was dead after a loco hadn't run in a few months and power cut shortly after powerup, was that the loco lost its ID.  I simply re-added it.  I never did sweat the battery readings; so long as loco works, don't worry about it.

RJR,

Exactly what I've been waiting to hear. Will not sweat it.

Thanks!

Joe

ironman1 posted:

With DCS, when scrolling through engine info, battery life is one category. Most of the time I'll get a reading of battery: OK, sometimes battery: low, just now a reading battery: Hi, for the first time.  Is battery Hi as good as battery OK? ARE THESE READINGS ACURATE??? Do they mean anything?

IIRC, if your DCS is an early version (i.e. 2.x ) and you select "battery info" on a 3 volt system PS2 loco you will always receive a "low battery" reading because the DCS 2.x was prior to the introduction of 3v engines and the 2.x system can't differentiate between the original 5 volt (9 volt battery) and the newer 2nd generation AA 3v battery; therefore giving a false "low battery" reading.

Whaaat?  All this 'turmoil' over an $8 battery?

Bernard,

It's not an $8 insurance policy that was in question but a CLEAR statement saying: "that is all you can do". Buy it, replace it, run it. Not wishy washy... well, this is what I would do. Assuming you bought a NEW, rechargeable battery.

One of my earlier questions was, HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE BUYING A NEW BATTERY OR A 15 YEAR OLD ONE, WHEN THERE IS NO EXPERATION DATE. If it doesn't make a difference than give a reasonably clear answer saying it doesn't make any difference. Would you buy a pack of Duracell batteries NOW, if the expiration date was 2017 or before?

We all buy from a variety of sources, MTH, electronics stores, Ebay, etc. Who says those batteries aren't 15 years old? No one has clearly said "it doesn't make any difference."

RJR did state clearly, don't stockpile on batteries, meaning...? RJR did also say, the 7 second test is valid.

Ironman, you probably know that you can use any NiCad or NiMH battery that is 8.4 volts rather than the usual 7.2.

As I think about it, I don't recall seeing dates on rechargeable batteries of any brand. 

Hi RJR,

I've been using the 8.4 volt battery from MTH, image attached. It seems rechargeable batteries don't fall under the same regulations as standard batteries.

I did a google search on expiration date for rechargeable batteries. Didn't see anything saying that there is or why. I did find a site, link below, that gives a fair explanation of the types of batteries, usage, # of charges, etc. Maybe this info will help someone.

I think I'm done on researching this subject. I'll run the 7 second power shut down/engine sound test. When in doubt I'll recharge a new battery and replace the old one...Until someone confirms a better solution.

http://batteryuniversity.com/l...ckel_based_batteries

Thanks again!

Joe

I don't know how often you run your trains, but if used at least monthly, I have found that the internal charging system keeps them adequately charged.

RJR,

Like you mentioned, my understanding was that the internal charging system did the job. I run them once or twice a week, for about an hour or so. 

I rotate most of my engines off the layout. Some have been overshadowed by newer engines purchased over the past 3+ years. Mostly Lionel Legacy.

All my MTH are PS2 5v & 3v, pre-PS3, approx. 2 dozen engines. My concerns, that prompted me to start this post, was for the MTH engines that haven't seen service in 5 years or more. A few go back to 10+ years, and I've been afraid to run them until I was confident I did all the preventive maintinence possible. 

Joe

After checking a few very early 5 Volt PS2 engines that haven't been run in over 10 years, I discovered a serious problem with 3 out of 6 original PS1 batteries that were installed. The battery actually had burst and secreted it's content in one case & corrosion was present on the other 2. Please see attached image.

Luckily the damage didn't go beyond the 9 volt connector. I removed the damaged batteries in the 3 engines, cleaned up the corrosion on the connector, & installed fully charged MTH Green replacements. I ran the 7 second sound test on the engines which are running fine after initial testing. 

Due to the quantity of MTH PS2 engines I own, I decided to create a chart of the engines and current battery status. At least now I'll have a quick reference when I wish to rotate my engines on the layout, and hope to avoid permanent electronic damage sooner than needed.

I also included the chart.

ironman1 posted:

Thank you for your reply. I do have new in packaging replacement batteries but since they have no date on them, they could be just as old.

When I took off the shell, I expected to see one of the early white 9V's and was ready to replace it. The engine is probably 15 years old. Impossible to say if the battery is the original.

The MTH batteries (white and green) DO HAVE date codes.  There is a letter and number (i.e. A22) and indicate date of manufacture.  The original white batteries were stamped on the top edge parallel to the terminal while the newer green design were stamped along one of the narrow sides.  I can't remember if the starting year was with the PS1 system w/ battery (1998?) or the 1st generation PS2 but if I had to guess it was the PS1 system (1998?) since PS1 also used the rechargeable 9v battery.  So assuming if 1998 was MTH's initial 9v battery year, then in the A22 example above, the battery was made in the 22nd week of 1998.  A D10 code means 10th week of 2001 etc.  There was a post on the OGR forum many years ago with the info, but likely got lost when OGR switched hosting sites.

As mentioned, MTH's newer green battery continues the same style LETTERnumber sequence.  The green battery is also said to be dry cell so you should not experience leakage damage like what can occur with the earlier white 9v battery.  All common rechargeables will degrade over time as their either their recharge usage counts increase or internal chemistry degrades over elapsed time.

So decide for yourself if you wish to spend $5 to $11 on a compatible 9v nicad/nimh/liion type battery, $25 on BCR or get handy with the soldering iron and components and make your own BCR type device.  I completely understand your concern for a blown board replacement that as you say might cost more than $350.  But for the age of any of those trains, you can likely replace the engine (new old stock or used) for less than $350 or repair/replace the old PS1/2 (9v) with a new PS3 (no battery needed) board.  You have options.

Keystone,

Thanks for your reply. I have noticed the stamped number on the side of the batteries. I'm surprised  you're the first to acknowledge that it refers to when it was manufactured. So "A" would be for the year 1998, "B" for 1999, "C" for 2000, "D" 2001, etc. Based on that dating system, being this is now 2018, what year would you consider to be the furthest back that the battery, if new in the pack, could still be usable? An A22 for example is nearly 22 years old.

Like I mentioned, since I have quite a few engines that are 10 to 15 years old, I'll continue to swap out the batteries, test periodically, and run them till they drop. I'll stop worrying and decide what to do with them when the that time comes.

Thanks again,

Joe

ironman1 posted:

So "A" would be for the year 1998, "B" for 1999, "C" for 2000, "D" 2001, etc. Based on that dating system, being this is now 2018, what year would you consider to be the furthest back that the battery, if new in the pack, could still be usable? An A22 for example is nearly 22 years old.

Joe, I can't remember the exact year MTH started using the white 9v batteries in their early QSI based proto systems, so the "A" could be 1998 or possibly sooner such as 1997.  If needed, you might consider phoning MTH's service department to get clarification.  But what is generally agreed, is that the white 9v battery should be replaced with a compatible battery/cap due to the white type's overall age and construction (wet cell => damaging leakage possible).

Was wet cell, not NiCad?

Keystone,

I am taking all the precautions to insure I'll get as much usage out of my trains. All white batteries have been removed and replaced with charged MTH green replacements. I'll test regularly, with the accepted 7 second sound after power cut off test, suggested by Barry.

I don't run my trains daily and I can only run a few at a time when I do. I'll try to rotate more frequently and run, enjoy, & hope for the best. What else can I do?

At least with the battery dating system you enlightened me with I'll have a better sense of what is new and what to replace.

Thanks for all your help!

Joe