MTH Railking Imperial vs. Lionel...anything?

if it were me, I'd just buy any engine that you like regardless of scale or traditional size.  I have a handful of Scale diesels and some traditional and same for steam.  Some scale diesels look just fine pulling traditional freight (a scale f3 isnt' that much smaller than a traditional one for example).  Some scale freight looks huge regardless of what engine I'm pullling it with because my layout is small.  I think you will find you can mix and match things that are pleasing to the eye and fun to run.  Of course it is all personal preference, so I'm just sharing my preference.  Also, it sounds like you can only run 1 engine at a time currently, if that is the case, it would seem unlikely that you would have traditional and scale sized items on the track at the same time.  This would also reduce the odds of things looking wierd because they are different proportions.

just my 2 cents, happy railroading!

Welcome back to our GREAT hobby!

One way of determining size is to look at the length of a locomotive or car. For example, a Williams by Bachmann Pennsy Steam Turbine is 20" long with her tender - small, like Lionel's model, to negotiate tight curves.

A MTH RailKing Imperial Pennsy Steam Turbine is 25 3/4" long. She is much more massive and negotiates 3l" ("O" Gauge) curves.

Measure the length of locomotives and cars that you like and use that as a starting point when considering new ones.

It comes down to what looks good to you. I run Williams 60' Madison cars in Reading two-tone green with my Lionel Reading T-1 custom painted and detailed by Reading Steam Guru as No. 2124 to represent an Iron Horse Ramble.

I have the MTH DCS command control, and still I use blocks with insulating pins for the sidings. The smallest curve on my lower level is 042, and the upper level is mainly 027 with Gargrvaes 032 curves in some places.

From experiance be careful when running MTH engines thru Gargraves switches, the MTH engine likes to derail, at least my large steam engine by MTH does, a 4-8-4 T-1. 

Something that I learned the hard way, don't leave a command control engine on a siding and then power up by accident, like backing a lighted caboose down the siding, because even when turned off with CC they still transfer power thru the center rail pickups.

I have a few older Lionel transformers as well, they seem to hold up well.

The new transformers are out of my price league.

Lee Fritz

Buy what pleases your eye. This forum leans towards MTH products. Only thing you need to keep in mind that if you go with DCS you must add TMCC or Legacy to run every other brand of engine in command mode.

All of my engines are MTH engines, and all but 1 are Railking. The 1 "oddball" is a MTH Premier piece. MTH breaks their O Gauge offerings into two product lines - Railking (smaller, semi-scale "traditional" trains) and Premier (full scale trains). 

Railking is then broken down into a number of other categories such as Rugged Rails (super basic detail), Railking (a bit better detail but still pretty basic), Railking Scale (Scale peices, usually old Premier line pieces that don't have the detail for modern day Premier line) and the Imperial which is the top of the line in detail. Many details found on the expensive Premier engines are found on Imperials. No matter what the category in Railking, all have either PS2 or PS3 and are generally equal in size. 

I like a lot of detail so I have a number of Imperial pieces. I do however have items from all across the board in Railking. I focus on one area (Railking) so I don't get tempted by other items and also have everything look somewhat alike in size. Buy what you want but if you are big on making everything look right, I'd think of sticking to one or two manufacturers as there is some variation between them. Another thing to consider is whether or not you plan to go to command control with TMCC/Legacy and/or DCS. If you do, I would focus your buying on engines equipped with those systems.

This is a photo of my newest Imperial Steamer, the B6 0-6-0. In addition to it, I have the following Imperial engines - Y6B 2-8-8-2, USRA 0-6-0, K4s 4-6-2, SD70ACe Diesel. Note the extra detail and real coal load...something only found on Imperial Railking products.  

I have heard differing opinions from several guys, all dealers...some say MTH is best, others say Lionel...I only own 1 MTH engine, and mostly post war/ modern Lionel....

I run MTH Rail King exclusively, and these locomotives have been excellent runners. The variety of Rail King trains is awesome, and the price of them is usually less than Lionel. Rail King locomotives with Proto Sound 2 and Proto Sound 3 have more features than any other brand when running in conventional mode, and they are equivalent in features to Lionel's Legacy when running with DCS. In short, Rail King is the best value in O-gauge trains.

Your point about not wanting to spend $1,000 on a loco is understood, but some of the less gfeature-laden scale locos from both Lionel and MTH can be had for far less.  Many diesels and smaller steamers can be found at good prices: I've bought scale diesels and small steamers for $450 - $600 and big steam locos (Legacy, too) for under $750.  You really do get what you pay for.  

The main thing I would advise is think about what you want and buy slowly.  Get one or two good locos - good quality is always worth it.  Whether traditional, semi-scale, or scale - whatever, buy what you think will please you and then wait and see how you like them and if your tastes evolve.  

Lionmaster is very nice. I have the LM Legacy Big Boy. It will run on 0-31. Although I have a O72 loop my inner loop is 0-60. So it has great route availability. A scale Big Boy would be stuck on the outer loop. Careful selection of rolling stock makes it look realistic. 

MTH is very good value in general. You can find their speciality sets (even scale size)that include rolling stock and loco for what you would pay for just the engine from Lionel.

I have both Legacy and DCS. No one system is better than the other. My personal view

is DCS can do more without buying more add on items. Such as run conventional from the remote.

However I find myself drawn to the Legacy Cab 2 it feels more user friendly. With faster access to loco features. Maybe it is just me. 

A lot of people end up with both systems. But if you just add a Lionel command base

DCS can run TMCC and Legacy engines, although you can't access the special Legacy features.

Just my personal thoughts.

Nick

On the RailKing line they have RailKing Scale (O48) and traditional so if you desire to stay away from scale double check that feature.  I run multiple trains on the same loop using command (both DCS and Legacy); however, I really enjoyed running my 681 steamer with my cars from 1950's with a command train simultaneously on a loop. Running two trains with more than 60 years difference was very nice. To do it I loaded up my steamer with cars that ran smoothly at 15 volts and then used command to control the 2nd train to maintain separation between the two trains. Nice.

If you look up the engines on both company's websites you will see the measurements so you will know the exact comparisons to a scale model.  Many of the non-articulated steamers from the Imperial and Lionmaster line are closer to scale sized than you may realize.   The lack of offerings in the Lionmaster line is why I chose to go with the Imperial line (along with some other reasons when my son was younger).  

One important note---if size is important to you I would NOT go with the other non-scale steamers from Lionel outside of the Lionmaster line.   They are all the same size---so a Hudson, Berk, Pacific, etc will all be the same length..looks ridiculous to me.

Either way you can't go wrong and scale rolling stock from the steam era looks just fine behind an Imperial or Lionmaster steamer.

--Greg

I own a few Railking steam locomotives and I like them a lot.  I think my favorite one has to be my Big Boy steam locomotive.  It amazes me that it can handle small radius curves while being such a big articulated steam locomotive.  It also has a ton of pulling power.  I might need to set up a small temporary layout this summer when I am back from college so I can run it again. In general though the Railking/Railking Imperial steam locomotives are really nice for the money.  

they are beautiful, but I was wondering what was the main differences as far as reliability, ease of repair/maintenance etc...I like the old post war stuff cuz parts are readily available, not too hard to work on and so reliable...there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of referance material for MTH...ie value guide, repair manual etc. I have an MTH camal back, and it is sweet. I could never afford a Lionel one, and the sound system is neat too!

That's what I love about this forum. I originally started this thread with my question almost a year ago and it is obviously still sparking some interest.

Anyway, in the last year I have learned a lot. I bought two WBB engines, some rolling stock from RMT (I hope they get back in business), Lionel & MTH/RailKing, all to supplement the nice collection of post-war Lionel I already had, and created some fairly good looking scenery as well. Regarding the original question, what was most helpful was a picture I saw on another thread showing 5 or 6 "O-Gauge" boxcars lined up side by side ranging in size from O-27 all the way up to scale. The disparity of sizes was quite an eye-opener and I have used that as a reference when shopping. I've found that I can easily inter-mix the different scales (I’ll call them that even though they’re the same) on the same train by positioning them in graduated order, smallest to largest or visa-versa. No one who’s seen my layout has noticed the size differences.

Also, since my original question, there is no more Lionmaster but there is a new product in the mix…LionChief Plus! I’m seriously considering a LC+ diesel and steamer. They appear to have good detail and the remotes would be great for my grandchildren. They were visiting this past weekend and I had my conventional layout set up with a KW and ZW controlling separate loops, manned by twin two-year olds, and it was a miracle there were no wrecks, although I suspect that was disappointing to them. There were several close calls though, nearly giving me a heart attack, so my thinking would be to give each a remote and let them play while I control things with the transformers adjusting voltage to keep the speed in check.

On its packaging, Lionel seems to differentiate their sizes by either identifying their rolling stock as either Standard O or Traditional. MTH does it with either MTH packaging or RailKing, but then again there is RailKing and RailKing Scale. RMT has said they’re O-27 and I don’t know anything about Atlas or any of the others. So there is no answer other than let the buyer beware. God forbid the manufacturers create a 3-Rail O-Gauge standard, similar to NMRA, to make it easy for the buyer.

There is an important distinction, sizewise, between RailKing Scale and RailKing Imperial:

RailKing Scale is reserved for diesels that were formerly in the Premier Line, but were demoted owing to advances in detail levels between first-generation Premier and the present.

Place a RK Scale C40-8W diesel next to its Premier counterpart and you will find both to be the exact same size, but the Premier version will have:

-- more detailed trucks (add-on piping and such)

-- a bigger, lower fuel tank (early Premier diesels had undersize fuel tanks so they could clear 031 switches)

-- and seperately-applied body details such as roof fans, grab irons, and side vents that used to be molded in as part of the body shell

RailKing diesels used to be smaller versions of scale-proportioned Premier diesels, but with the advent of "RailKing Scale", those were pushed into the newly-created "Rugged Rails" line. Rugged Rails diesels (along with two or so extra-downsized steamers) are the rough equivalent of Lionel 027...(except almost all of them have command control built-in)

RailKing Imperial is exclusively steam locomotives. These have extra add-on detail rivaling Premier-class steamers, but the Imperial versions are still downsized relative to their higher-priced counterparts.

---PCJ

For me, the overall beauty of the Railking line in general can be reduced to one thing: 031 curves. That means I can be happy with my engines on my Atlas 036 curves layout. Even the Imperial Pennsy turbine at 25+ inches in length. I would like to get maybe one Lionel Legacy steam engine but those seem to demand 054 curves and up. So the RK Imperial steam engines fill the gap between detail and curve radius.

I know Trucktrain7 posted a great series of pics but this does not give an accurate comparison of size between brands because they are of different engines.

I know you are considering a Lionel Chief steamer and I'm not trying to dissuade you but read the measurements for each of the steamers - they are all the same size.   Since you seem to be considering size comparison I recommend you consider how you would feel with two types of steamers (say a Hudson and a Berk) that are exactly the same length when in real life the Berk is considerably longer.   If this is a concern for you I recommend going with the Imperial steamers as they are different in size relative to the prototype.

As long as you are happy with whatever version you choose that is all that matters.

--Greg

I’ve realized that what makes me happy is a smooth running layout with minimal interruptions due to derailments caused bad switches (or bad craftsmanship on my part) or lousy electrical connections, so I have endeavored, in the renovation of my layout, to improve on all of that.  Yes, I’ve taken a close look at the Rail King Imperial line and have been mightily impressed. “Scale” isn’t important to me at all. If it was, I would have stayed with N or moved into HO, but I do like the look of equipment that has enough detail so that they don’t look like toy trains.  I have one 042 return loop on my layout therefore I can’t run anything that requires 054 or greater curves so the Imperial line would be a good fit for my needs. LionChief Plus however has definitely given me pause. I hope to get a hands-on look at this new line in the near future. Also, if Lionel came out with Lionmaster again with the LionChief Plus remote feature, that would be definitely appealing to me as well although from what I read, Lionel execs don’t think there is a market for Lionmaster. MTH obviously disagrees and they seem to be expanding on their Imperial line.