Multiple Train Operation Unpowered Siding

Not sure I understand.  You say the inside line ALWAYS HAS POWER... yet you then say the power connector on the inside line is NOT LIT??

Is this the diagram?  And you bent back the 4 contacts denoted by "X"?

One issue I have had in the past when using Reatrax is achieving a completely insulated section.  I had taken the proper steps to insulate the tabs, however, the rails at the connection were touching, enough to make a good solid electrical connection.  My solutions was to cut a very small sections out of some hard plastic packaging (clear) and position them between the rails at the insulated section.

Yes. Thank you for adding the wiring diagram. I got to work this morning to scan and upload it, and now I don't have to. I removed the connectors where the "X"s are marked on the diagram. I changed out the switches with the same results. The outside line I can isolate from power. The inside line is causing the trouble. If power is sent to the outside line, then the light on the power connector to the track is not lit (usually, sometimes it is depending on how I am trying different things), but as soon as I throw the switch and the engine goes on the inside track, then the light goes on, the lights on the coach go on, and the engine has power the entire line.

I will look for some insulating plastic and see if it fixes the problem. I sure it will have to be thin otherwise will derail??? Since the tabs below have been removed, it sounds like I need to place between the outside rails of the switch and the track. Correct?

Thanks.

Not really on the derailing, just enought to fit in between and prevent the rails from touching each other. After inserting the plastic or other insulating material, trim it to rail height and on the inside to clear the flanges.

I guess I need a little electrical understanding. I have the track separated so the track on the outside rail is not touching. If I connect the center and inside rail connectors, the light on the power supply turns on on the inside line when power is only going to the outside line. The outline line is isolated and works perfectly. If I disconnect the power feeding the inside line, the train runs fine on the line, so power is getting through to the isolated track.

To be clear, I removed the track that I removed the outside rail connector and connected the switch to the next piece of track with wires, then there is power to the inside line. I'm really at a loss. Any help you can provide would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Is your configuration exactly as shown in the diagram - that is you have 3 lock-ons in the exact orientation shown (on south side of the track in the diagram)?

And with no train on the track, the top lock-on is always lit, and the "inside" and "outside" lock-ons toggle on/off following the SPDT switch?

Do you have a DMM or meter than measures volts and ohms?

My configuration is as shown in the diagram. 3 lock-ons all on the same side of the track.

The light on the inside track lock-on is always on. It doesn't matter if the SPDT switch is in the A, B or off position. I switched the black wires on the SPDT and of course the outside track gets power in the B rather than the A position, but nothing changed on the inside track.

Before the light would only go on when the train was on the track, now it is on all the time.

I have a voltage tester. I put it on the track and nothing happened. I'm sure I'm using it wrong...

Well, if your only "tester" is the lock-on light, then so be it.  So the question is why is the Inside lock-in lit when the SPDT is not supply Black to it.  The Black power must be coming from either the left side or right side via the turnouts.  What I'd do is to pull a section of track to the left of the lock-on, then pull a section of track from the right side of the lock-on.  Which makes the lock-on light turn off?  That tells you where the Black power is "sneaking" into the Inside section.

Right. I am tried to figure that out in the last few days. At one point I thought I knew which side the problem was. But, now I can unhook one side at the light on the lock-on stays on and then reconnect and the unhook the track on the other side and the light stays on. So the power is currently sneaking through on both sides. 

Like I said earlier, if I disconnect the track on one side and completely take out the track with the contact removed and run two wires to connect the outside and center rails where the missing track would be, then the lock-on light turns on. It seems to me that this would be the ultimate way to isolate the track with no chance of an accidental connection via the outside rail. Does this make sense? To my non-electrian/non-trainman mind, it does not. Thanks again for your help. My son is no longer in tears as he has given up on this working. Now only dad is crying.

If it matters, I do have one thing different than the diagram. I am not using the large transformer, just the one that came with the set.

Let's say this is your INSIDE section.  You've disconnected track to the left and to the right of the lock-on to see where the power is sneaking into this section.  You visually inspected the "X" tabs to confirm they are not contacting underneath and added small plastic inserts (or whatever) just in case the rails themselves might be touching above ground.  You throw the SPDT switch to the INSIDE, the lock-on lights up.  You throw the SPDT switch to the OUTSIDE and the lock-on turns off. So with the lock-on light OFF:

You have 6 jumper options A-F to find the sneak-path.  Are you saying you can jumper across just C or F and the lock-on lights up??

Ok. Here is the situation. I have separated the tracks from the lock-on track and I have a light up coach on the track to the right in the photo (connection D, E, and F).

I turn the track power on with the SPDT selected to the outside line, so no power is going to this line. The light on the lock-on is off.

If I connect the D connection wit a wire nothing happens. If I connect the E connection, the light on the coaches turn on. If I connect the F connection, the light on the lock-on turns on.

When I connect either A, B, or C, nothing happened initially. I reconnected the track to the left at this connection and still the light on the lock-on did not light up. So, I'm thinking power is leaking through the isolation to the DEF side. Then I placed a light up coach on the track to the left and I got sparks (which surprised me) when I tried to place the car on the tracks. When the lights on the coach light up, the light on the lock-on turns on. As I move the coach so the lights go out on the coach, then light will also go out on the lock-on. In other words, the lights on the coach and lock-on are both on, then I lean the coach sideways so it is no longer making contact and then the lock-on light will also go out.

Then, I want back and disconnected the ABC connection with the light up coach to the left. Now, the coach stays lit and when I connect the C connection with a wire, the lock-on lights up.

Any ideas???

Try this.  Take the track section with the lock-on at the top of the diagram and turn it around so the lock-on is on the North side of the track.

I switched the lock-on on the main line around with the same results. The outside line is still isolated when it is supposed to be and the inside line has continuous power.

We agree that the Inside and Outside lock-on should not be lit if black power is OFF from the SPDT switch.  We agree that you must be getting black power "leak" from one or the other turnout.

With no lighted coach, if the lock-on lights with only jumper C or F, then black is leaking through from the turnout on that rail. Solve that first for both the Inside and Outside sections.

Then, with the lighted coach on the Inside or Outside section, if the lock-on lights with only jumper A or D, then black is leaking through from the turnout on that rail.  The lock-on lights up when black power is on the south outer rail if the lock-on is plugged into the south side as shown in the diagram.  The metal wheel axles of the lighted coach short the two outside rails so any black power leak from jumper A or D hops over to the lower rail and lights the lock-on. As above, you have to solve the C or F jumper problem first or else it's too confusing.

I have some spare RealTrax with turnouts and should have time to hook this configuration up tomorrow and see if I can't find potential stumbling blocks.

We cannot have your son disappointed in dad so we will get this working!  3 days till Christmas and counting...

I am not sure where the diagram comes from, but the location of the top Lock on (Main Line) seems in error.  The lockon powers Black to the outside rail closest to the lock on.  So the Main Line Locon has ALL the interior outside rails powered, since there are no X shown to isolate the inside outer rail.

I am not sure why Black is being disrupted.  Normally to isolate a section you isolate the center rail, because trains that are 3R have axles that will bridge and connect both outside rails.

As wired by the diagram I am surprised if you can isolate either inside or outside line as the Main line connector has powered the "other" outside rail.  G

The diagram comes from the RealTrax manual. I have the main line on the north side of the track. If I have the track apart and track C and F, then the light on the lock-on does not light up. Once I place a light up coach on either side of the inside line, the lights go on on the coach and then when I jump C and F, the light on the lock-on goes on.

The outside line continues to run perfectly as it should and I followed the diagram. I tried changing one of the switches with the same results. Do you recommend that I isolate the enter rail on the track piece that connects to the switches on the inside line?

Here's a 1 minute video following the MTH instruction diagram.  My "hand" is the SPDT switch for the Black power so I selectively apply Black to the Inside or Outside or neither lock-on.  The 3 turnout control wires are jumpered to each other so the anti-derailing action occurs automatically and the turnouts set properly for the active loop.  I locked both engines into conventional Forward so they start on power-up to move things along.  Note at the end of the video, no Black is applied to Inside or Outside and both lock-ons are OFF even though there are axles on the sections.

If anything, I'd say the stumbling block is insuring the bent-back tabs and all outer rail ends are truly isolated. I did in fact have to go back and fiddle a bit with some of the tabs and rail-ends to insure isolation.

I don't have MTH Switches.  I can see how the outside loop is isolated via the insulated inside track sections.  Is the inside outside rail on MTH switches isolated.  Since the inside rail is grounded via the Main line I don't understand how the inside loop isn't powered.  Unless that tab is also been bent back.  The original diagram doesn't show an X there.  G

The Diagram clearly shows that the inside line should be isolated by removing the tab on the rail that is on the same side as the lock-on connector. However, I have disconnected the track at the switches. If I use wire to connect the individual rails of the track, the coach lights up and the lock-on light gets turned on when I connect the inside rail. The center and outside rails don't seem to do anything. Obviously the video above is working perfectly and I my setup, the outside line is working perfectly. I would just assume not break off more tabs and ruin the track if you think I am crazy and electricity is acting like I am in a different dimension.

Randy,  I am looking at Stan's picture posted from the manual and it only shows 4X which break the outside outer rail connections.  If you follow the inside outer rail from the main line (which is powered when that lock on is in the position shown), through the switches to the A line there are no X on that inside rail.  The outer Rails show the X but that is the insulated non-derailing section.

Do you have a Voltmeter.  If so place one probe on the switch inside outer rail (the section that doesn't show an X and then touch the inside outer rail from the curve piece attached to it.  If there is continuity the train will have black line common available.  (test both switches)  Since center rail is powered the train will have power.  Since the lock on light of the A line is on the other outside rail it will remain unlit until a train goes in and the wheels bridge both outer rails.  At that point the lock on lights even though your switch is on the B line.   G

Hmm, I wonder if part of the disconnect may be the use "inside" and "outside" as referring to the inner loop and outer loop...and simultaneously "inside" and "outside" black rail.

Anyway my understanding of the MTH method is it isolates BOTH black rails in the inner and outer loops.  To GGG's point, many schemes isolate the center red rail...but this does not.  My guess is they use black power rail isolation because this tab is what you'd need to bend back for isolated-rail activation of track-side accessories...but that's just a guess.

My interpretation of the "x" is to isolate the black outer rails at that side of the switch.  As the text describes some MTH turnouts such as RiteTrax apparently comes pre-isolated differently than RealTrax turnouts.  Anyway, for the RealTrax turnouts I had, I bent back the tabs as shown below.  The tabs on the "V" of the turnout were already missing.  But in any case the ends of the joining rails themselves cannot touch as described by others earlier by use of a thin spacer or non-conductive insert.

So the lower 2 lock-ons should ONLY light when Black power is applied to that section via the SPDT switch.  Likewise any coaches on those sections should ONLY light when Black power is applied to that section.  For debugging, start with no coaches and insure the lock-ons do not light unless Black power is applied.  Then put the coaches on.  Then put the engines on and enjoy...

Thanks for posting the picture Stan, that is specifically what I am taking about.  Without breaking the tab circled in green on the curved turnout, the A line is still powered.  So one or the other switch is still making contact with the adjacent track.   G

THANK YOU. On the inside track I had to bend back the connectors on the other rail. It sure looks to me in the realtrax book that the other rail should be the one bent back.

The set up is working perfectly and my kids and wife are no longer making fun of me. Let's see how long that lasts. But for now, I will enjoy their admiration. It is all because or you two helping. Thank you.

Merry Christmas.

Stan promised it before Christmas.  Glad to help clear it up, and glad you have it working.

Just for info, MTH doesn't connect the outside rails.  Lionel tinplate and Fast track has the outer rails tied together, so the center rail is used to isolate sections.  Remember the train wheels will bridge the outer rails, so you need to consider that when trying to isolate using MTH track.  G

Thanks again. You guys were a big help.

For next Christmas, the "obvious" encore is to automatically alternate the trains.  Now that the isolated rail problem has been beaten into submission, a relay to replace the manual SPDT switch and a few electrical components ought to do it - maybe $5 in parts. 

366 days ought to be enough time to get that going