N&W Passenger Cars Golden Gate

Thanks for posting this, Chris. As we discussed, N&W modelers contemplating purchasing these cars / sets need to make their preference known now as decisions have not been finalized but will be soon.

Another decision that has not been made is whether to have skirted or non skirted cars made. Input from buyers is welcomed on that point also.

While Scott and others who assist on these projects read this forum, the best way to influence any decision is to e-mail Scott directly. Sunset/GGD is an OGR forum sponsor and contact info is on the website.

I am going to throw out some things to seriously consider.

1.) Are the cars supposed to be prototypical or are they going to be mish-mash of the cars evolution over the years?

2.) This "Skirt - No Skirt" really throws a monkey wrench into the works!

At some point after the skirts were removed from the cars, the steps were permanently welded in the down position. This caused the smooth flow of the end skirting to be broken, the steps to show in the area below the platform and a sort of pig tail form at the bottom.

Is this something that can be modeled to be correct or is this something that has to be compromised?

3.) Removing the skirts is also going to open up the underbelly to close scrutiny. Are people going to care if the cars are not going to have the proper equipment, i.e. battery boxes, reservoirs, brake components, etc. underneath?

4.) Who is going to whine the most when compromises are made, the 2 rail folks who already have a Overland Arrow set with skirts and don't want them or the 3 rail folks who want an Arrow set with skirts and don't get them?

Non-Logo cars:

I have been saying this same thing for many years now, I have long wanted some N&W passenger cars without the "Logo" on the side. The P/A was only two trains, one in each direction a day. There were many more cars without a P/A logo than had them, the "Pocahontas" being one.

5.) The Pm cars would fit the bill. However, are you going to use a P3 body numbered for a Pm or are you going to use a proper Pm body? On a correct Pm, the windows are a bit different and the floor plan is basically flipped as the mens & womens lounges are on the opposite side from the P3 .

Just some things to think about.

4.) Who is going to whine the most when compromises are made,

Most likely... everybody.

Last night I sent Scott a request for specific numbers for the extra P3 cars that were either lettered Pocahontas or didn't have a name in the middle.

Steve

I like that.

The only cars that were ever lettered for "The Pocahontas" were painted BLUE!

I don't think we will see any of these cars painted blue unless someone will place an order for a minimum of 20 cars in that paint scheme.

I had ordered the N&W cars but canceled when Scott told me that they would be the skirted version. At the indy show majority of the folks stated they wanted the unskirted cars as the skirted cars have already been done. I do not know why the cars would not have the correct underbody detail as the N&W plans are everywhere. If the blue Pocahontas cars are done, I would be very interested. Just my thoughts. Stephen

GGD will make the skirted version because they believe they will sell more, probably far more, skirted cars than an unskirted, underbody detailed, version of the PA.  Only my opinion, of course.

EDIT:  In light of Scott's post that both versions will be produced, disregard my remarks.

Here is a dumb question, i.e. related to the steam era, when were the "skirts" removed?

Sometime in 1955 is the best I have been able to find.

Stephen,

I understand where you are coming from with not wanting the Arrow train with skirts since you already have the Overland version. I have the Overland version also and have no intention of getting another.

But can we get you on board to ask for some skirted Pm cars and an extra named diner? If you were building a Pocahontas you'd need 3 Pm coach cars at least and the diner. Add on a Pennsy 10-6, an NYC 10-6 and a Mac Shops 10-6 Budd built or the earlier released from Golden Gate N&W Pennsy striped 10-6 on the end and you'll have the meat of the train. The potatoes are in the head end cars. I personally would buy 5 of the Pm cars since I've seen the videos of it this way, and I'd get at least one of the named diners.

Also, the Pm cars were THE cars that made up the Arrow before 1950. If they were imported, someone could add the Arrow logo to them pretty easily if they wanted to.

In all of this, even though we would not get a useful Arrow train ourselves, we COULD get a new and useful N&W car that was a staple on the N&W.

Hot Water,

After looking at Jimmy's response, I'm going to revise an earlier statement I made in this post. Originally I said the skirts were removed by the end of 1954 but I think some of the photo dates in the books that I have seem a bit questionable. I've seen photos referenced as late as October 1954 with the skirts and and some referenced with the skirts gone in 1954. I have some videos that show a mix of skirted and unskirted cars in the Arrow that show fully green foliage in the scenery. I'm tending to think Jimmy is probably correct about the 1955 time frame. Otherwise they'd have had to start coming off in the middle of 1954.

Christopher N&W.- - I would be interested in a PM car Skirted or un skirted. Where do I submit my reservation. Scott told me that at the TCA show last April that the 3-railers "wanted the skirted version" I don't mind cutting the skirts off, as I did this with the HO brass cars. I have the O scale decals by Roanoke Shops, so I am set to go. It is just as easy to get the cars factory fresh. What I believe needs to happen is that reservations need to be listed so that modelers can "vote" for the most popular model to be made. Somtimes what is beieved what won't sell is the most popular model!

The blue Pocahontas, PM, Named Dinners, skirted or un skirted cars needs to be offered on the reservation list. This is something that Scott needs to post. No one can say there are not enough orders if items are not offered. Stephen

PS: Yes Christopher, I will take min of 3 PM coaches.

First and foremost, I have zero interest in buying PEVLER blue cars.

It would be my preference to have the Powhatan Arrow six car consist in a new as-built state. That means full skirting and steps in the "up" position. Just a nice and clean new consist running behind my 604 or 611.

While variation sounds great, I would be satisfied to have more cars offered in future projects. I would really like to see another run of three head end cars. In addition a mail storage car (Green w/ silver roof) would be outstanding.

Gilly

What's a Pm coach?  Pere Marquette?  In those Chessie colors?

Tell me more about blue N&W cars - I had no idea.  I prefer skirted cars, even though my collectionis about 1/3 unskirted.  I cannot imagine cutting skirts off without requiring a repaint.  And in O Scale aluminum, my experience is you need an end mill and a jig to do it.

Gilly:

We do not need another run of "as built" cars with ash deflectors and green trucks.

There are those that are interested in the Pocahontas car as there are those who are not interested in a "as built" rehash. Five companies have done the skirted versions in O scale. No one has done the mid to late 50's cars. Stephen

Personally i would love to see some accurate N&W Passenger Cars in the "Pelver Blue" scheme, since my modeling of the Passenger Era is the late 1960's prior to Amtrak, Tuscan Red is Ok?, but everybody runs them on there layouts and display layouts, something different would be nice, and the for the guy that posted an the N&W PM Series Coach, that is the N&W Classification for that series of coaches, it's not for the Pere Marquette either.

I think I will offer the Arrow in Skirted or Unskirted, but the same paint scheme. 

As for the blue paint scheme, not sure I have too many takers for that.  Will wait to hear more from you guys. 

Scott

Thank you Scott for posting and listening :

The only way to know if you have takers is to offer the product. Offer the blue scheme as a lot of modelers do model the 60' and up. If you offer the unskirted and in N&W red and blue schemes you have my orders otherwise I don't need any more skirted cars.

Also the PM car is a must. Two customers of yours have already committed to several. Don't past up the opportunity to do a never done before car. You will have the sales.

Stephen

Sans skirts, OK. But five offerings? I do know about Overland, but that set has been out of my reach. Lionel? Nothing I have cared to purchase; especially the latest "Pocahontas". Williams? Really? MTH? 18" cars that have Powhatan Arrow painted on them with a generic baggage, RPO, Full Vista Dome, and a sleeper? The 18" MTH cars I do own are weeks away from being offered for sale. I have a few 20" Weaver cars with minimal detail that will pass a 10' examination.

In my mind there are three distinctive eras of the Powhatan Arrow.

1946 with updated Pm coaches that were an interim stop-gap while N&W was waiting for "the" cars to arrive. As Superintendent of the Car Dept at East End Shops, my Grandfather likely had a hand in these. If these are offered as an add-on after the initial offering I'd like a couple.

1949 The Powhatan Arrow IMHO. A consist with P1, P2, P3 (3), D1, and P4. I just may bump my pre-order to two extra P3's instead of one. If I just get this one consist, this is it.

Mid 1950's onward In Service Powhatan Arrow. Skirting was removed to enable easier servicing of the cars. I get it. Great news that Scott has agreed to offer this era. It's just not on the top of my buy list.

Very early on (by 1950?), the Powhatan Arrow picked up head end cars. I would really like to see these offered as an add-on set.   

Gilly

That was very nice of Scott to step up and offer the un-skirted version. And yes, an "un-logo" Pm car would be nice.

I said "very nice" because I can't imagine what it would be like to be him right now. What with people asking for every loco and car in every paint scheme under the sun, it would make one's head spin!

Gilly: You are correct that there is not five sets that have been made. THERE ARE SIX companies that have made the cars in O scale. Stephen

Hi Gilly,

Definitely not 1950-1953. And I think you are going to find that the Arrow did not pick up head end cars until later, after the skirts were removed. There are some images out there that incorrectly date head end cars to 1953 on the Arrow, but then you look at the image and will see the skirts are already removed in the image which really wasn't so in 1953.

There were head end cars and streamlined cars with skirts in the Pocahontas. 

I think the opportunity for the head end cars will come, but for the Pm I think this is THE closest shot we will have at it. As unlikely as it is now, I'm guessing even Scott would tell you the chances in the future beyond this project will be 0.

I'm glad to see that the skirt issue was resolved with Scott, but I'd like to get back on track and ask N&W fans again to support the effort to get the Pm coach and the named diners for the Pocahontas added to the production run. Thanks.

So, there are six different manufacturers that have offered 21" scale, highly detailed Powhatan Arrow consists? Sorry, I must have been living under a rock. I know about the Overland cars, but that's about it. Did Kohs make a set?

I am excited about the prospect of finally getting what I consider to be a proper Powhatan Arrow consist.

Gilly

GGD has already done a head end set that included a combine, a baggage and a baggage/mail.

I don't know why a named diner couldn't be done?

Did the Pm coach ever run on the North East Corridor from New York.  Don't laugh. If it did I'll support getting one.  

John,

I remember seeing N&W cars running through Baltimore on the PRR, and I think I saw both coaches and sleepers. They did run in both the AM and PM so I guess the answer is probably "yes". Don't laugh.

Count me in for the unskirted cars. Punching some of the extrusions as Pm's would be great too.

In Thomas W Dixon's Powhatan Arrow there is more than 1 picture dated 1954 showing cars without skirting.

At what point was Pocahontas removed from the sides of the tuscan cars?

I have no interest in blue cars.

Steve

Ok Bob, I'll probably order one to be cut into my Aerotrain

"Why, Mr Peabody, you don't mean.....

  Yes, Sherman, surely you've heard of the.....Powhatan Aero."

Good play on words. Several of our local classic rock DJ's cannot pronounce "Aerosmith". They pronounce it Arrowsmith.

OK, I've got an idea. How about some undecorated diner cars (Tuscan red, of course)? A set of decals and botta-bing botta-boom you've got yourself a named diner.

Gilly

Once again, there were no tuscan cars with the "Pocahontas" logo.

I meant  Powhatan Arrow not Pocahontas. Shouldn't post at night.

Steve

Steve,

Dixon's book is the one I looked at also and some of the references seem somewhat dubious. There is a photo of a full train unskirted with a head end car labled 1954. The same photo and train is labled 1953 in Warden and Millers passenger book so I'm not sure they have a true date on that one. There is another of the train coming around the bend labled 1954 as well. Dixon and others show an image of the train fully skirted in October of 1954. So, they are all over the place. I have video showing the train with a mixed batch of skirted and unskirted cars with fully green foliage in the scenery. If there was fully green scenery it is not likely to have been in October, November and December of 1954 so at least some of the photo labeling is questionable.

The Arrow lettering went off the Pm cars when they were replaced with the new "set". I'd have to look into when the logo went off of the other cars.

To John Sethian: You should replace the entire Aerotrain with N&W Pm cars. Can we put you down for five, maybe six.

Gilly,

I know of 3 Arrow trains made in 0 scale. Sunset did them in the 70's or 80's. Overland did them, and American Lightweight made kits and you could have them built up. I have nice examples of each.