New Lionel Dreyfuss Hudson

@Norman R posted:

Seems like an on-ramp to working with brass. To do it right, how much curvature is needed in each direction? If it is a rectangle with curvature along one axis, that’s relatively straightforward. In order to make an authentic reproduction that also fits seamlessly on the model, does the rectangle need to curve in both the height axis and the width axis? (Being able to say “yeah, I built that part that with my 1/48 scale English wheel” could really pin the thrill meter in the red zone. )

Yes what he said haha. Also, how would you fix it in there? And does lionel provide color codes for the paint? So many questions 😂

@Norman R posted:

Seems like an on-ramp to working with brass. To do it right, how much curvature is needed in each direction? If it is a rectangle with curvature along one axis, that’s relatively straightforward. In order to make an authentic reproduction that also fits seamlessly on the model, does the rectangle need to curve in both the height axis and the width axis? (Being able to say “yeah, I built that part that with my 1/48 scale English wheel” could really pin the thrill meter in the red zone. )

Wow,…..earth to Norman, …..come in Norman,…..I cut a square, and bent it with my fingers. No English wheel required. …just follow the curvature on the nose, slightly more curve at the top, less at the bottom, and a slight contour top to bottom……it’s not rocket science,…..cut a square just slightly larger than the hole. Begin tweaking it to follow curvature. Start trimming the square as you get close, final trim up using sand paper laid out on a flat surface …..preferably a slab of glass, or metal …..roll the edges on the sand paper to erase away the sharp 90’s leaving a slightly rounded edge matching the edge of the engine …..paint to your desired color, let cool, serves six.

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Develop the skills, ….. then you get the thrill of “yeah, I built that part “

Hmmm.   Where do people get their thrills from in accomplishing new things?   To each his own, I guess.

A)   Yeah, I built that part by bending a postage stamp size piece of metal WITH MY FINGERS.

B)   Yeah, I FABRICATED that part on my 1/48 SCALE ENGLISH WHEEL. And I got a nifty excuse for buying a new tool.

Answer B) is my preference.

In case anyone is wondering, this is just offered in the spirit of friendly Friday night foolish fun on the Forum.

@Norman R posted:

Hmmm.   Where do people get their thrills from in accomplishing new things?   To each his own, I guess.

A)   Yeah, I built that part by bending a postage stamp size piece of metal WITH MY FINGERS.

B)   Yeah, I FABRICATED that part on my 1/48 SCALE ENGLISH WHEEL. And I got a nifty excuse for buying a new tool.

Answer B) is my preference.

In case anyone is wondering, this is just offered in the spirit of friendly Friday night foolish fun on the Forum.

In case anyone is wondering, this is just offered in the spirit of friendly Friday night foolish fun on the Forum.

Si is for that!

Pat

I'm thinking about repainting the black details underneath the shrouding and the wheels of the engine and tender a darker grey color once 5447 arrives, which I believe is more prototypical. What would you guys recommend for stripping the original paint off? Lacquer thinner? Or is that too strong? Also what clear coat? I was thinking satin. I have experience with custom painting gundam models but never have tried it with any engines.

@Rtflyer posted:

I'm thinking about repainting the black details underneath the shrouding and the wheels of the engine and tender a darker grey color once 5447 arrives, which I believe is more prototypical. What would you guys recommend for stripping the original paint off? Lacquer thinner? Or is that too strong? Also what clear coat? I was thinking satin. I have experience with custom painting gundam models but never have tried it with any engines.

Most Lionel black diecast engine paint is pretty impervious to lacquer thinner. Some of us use it to remove the lettering as it won’t harm the black. Probably safer to just put a light coat over the black and leave it.

Pete

@Rtflyer posted:

I'm thinking about repainting the black details underneath the shrouding and the wheels of the engine and tender a darker grey color once 5447 arrives, which I believe is more prototypical. What would you guys recommend for stripping the original paint off? Lacquer thinner? Or is that too strong? Also what clear coat? I was thinking satin. I have experience with custom painting gundam models but never have tried it with any engines.

Agree with Pete 100% …..remove the parts you want to color, wash them in the sink with hot soapy water, and lighty scrub the parts with fine scotchbrite, this will prepare the black base for top coating. Dry thoroughly, and paint with what you like….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Agree with Pete 100% …..remove the parts you want to color, wash them in the sink with hot soapy water, and lighty scrub the parts with fine scotchbrite, this will prepare the black base for top coating. Dry thoroughly, and paint with what you like….

Pat

Would you recommend a clear coat of any kind above the grey? Or just leave as is? Also I'm guessing painting the model will negate the warranty? Thanks for all of you guy's advice btw.

@Rtflyer posted:

Would you recommend a clear coat of any kind above the grey? Or just leave as is? Also I'm guessing painting the model will negate the warranty? Thanks for all of you guy's advice btw.

For those components, no, I wouldn’t bother with a clear coat. I’d use a satin finish in the color of choice……one hit wonder, one & done …..I can’t see this being a warranty voiding offense if you can remove the parts without technically “opening “ the engine, but that’s not for me to say, …..wouldn’t hurt to ask the orange box people for clarification on that matter,…….

Pat

@ed h posted:

That's pretty much the same email reply I received. A phone call didn't help either. Must need some kind of secret decoder ring to get one of these covers.

Well perhaps but also I have the #5454 so called fantasy paint scheme PT Dreyfus and so stands to reason they did not produce any coupler covers in that color. Lionel only carries replacement parts if any so I can live with mine the way it is because it is what it is there was never a part to replace. Unless someone wanted to sell them aftermarket in that color, kind of a Confederate gray.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

Well perhaps but also I have the #5454 so called fantasy paint scheme PT Dreyfus and so stands to reason they did not produce any coupler covers in that color. Lionel only carries replacement parts if any so I can live with mine the way it is because it is what it is there was never a part to replace. Unless someone wanted to sell them aftermarket in that color, kind of a Confederate gray.

I too have the #5454, nowhere near as dark of a grey that was advertised, was hoping for a match for my Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited passenger cars, another disappointed new Dryfuss owner.

@Arthur posted:

I too have the #5454, nowhere near as dark of a grey that was advertised, was hoping for a match for my Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited passenger cars, another disappointed new Dryfuss owner.

Then you were really winging it!!…..the 48 colors are full on reverse!….

Pat

@Arthur posted:

I too have the #5454, nowhere near as dark of a grey that was advertised, was hoping for a match for my Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited passenger cars, another disappointed new Dryfuss owner.

Actually the 5454 color compliments the 20th Century cars very well and that was what I was hoping for. I'm very satisfied with it.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

Actually the 5454 color compliments the 20th Century cars very well and that was what I was hoping for. I'm very satisfied with it.

Maybe Lionel's, but defiantly not Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited cars, that's what I was looking forward to as far as a match, not Lionel's passenger cars.

My 5447 should be here Tuesday.

@Arthur posted:

Maybe Lionel's, but defiantly not Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited cars, that's what I was looking forward to as far as a match, not Lionel's passenger cars.

Expecting color matches between manufacturers is a very risky business. It can happen, but it's rare.

If someone buys an engine, they would be advised to buy the same manufacturer's matching passenger cars, and vice versa.

Finally received my Dreyfuss. I'm fine with the light gray color and the sounds and operation are terrific so far.  I turn off the smoke for both health and operational reasons, so I haven't test those.   Tested with Bluetooth and the Universal Remote out of laziness and curiosity.  Quite good speed control which surprised me a bit.  For those unconcerned with the shade of gray and prototypical issues related to color, this should be a pretty good loco is my guess. Since this may well be my first and last big Lionel steamer since the Century Club II, it's a nice end to my career as a Lionel accumulator/sort of operator.

@Arthur posted:

Maybe Lionel's, but defiantly not Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited cars, that's what I was looking forward to as far as a match, not Lionel's passenger cars.

I'm sure Lionel wasn't trying to match those cars. I spoke with Ryan Kunckle at the LCCA convention last Summer and expressed my concern that the color of the 5454 might not go well with the Lionel 20th Century cars. He said not to worry it was his job to check to color samples shortly before a product goes into production and he would adjust if necessary. I would say he did, or somebody did. The color goes great with the Lionel cars and it is not like the catalog color.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

I'm sure Lionel wasn't trying to match those cars. I spoke with Ryan Kunckle at the LCCA convention last Summer and expressed my concern that the color of the 5454 might not go well with the Lionel 20th Century cars. He said not to worry it was his job to check to color samples shortly before a product goes into production and he would adjust if necessary. I would say he did, or somebody did. The color goes great with the Lionel cars and it is not like the catalog color.

Produce what you show in the catalog and not false advertise.

@Arthur posted:

Maybe Lionel's, but defiantly not Golden Gate Depot 1948 20th Century Limited cars, that's what I was looking forward to as far as a match, not Lionel's passenger cars.

You can't please everybody. It can't be done. Lionel's concern I'm sure is their own line of products and how they work and look together. Buy a locomotive from Golden Gate if you want something to match their cars. Mean time hold on to the 5454 it will skyrocket in value on the after market in a year or 2. So many people did not order this thing, thinking that it wasn't going to look good with the Lionel cars. It's now a hot item.

Received mine today, just opened it. I'm glad I went with the PT tender, gives it more of a presence. It's about as long as my brass hybrid early challenger. Still need to run it.

Well my Lionel Dreyfuss arrived today.  I like the light grey of the 5454 as it is almost a dead match for the Lionel Vision 18" baggage sound car. I am going to short install the larger coupler to see if I like the look. Not to use but to fill the hole. I am running the 2017 MTH 18" NYC eight car consist with this engine.  I will post pics as soon as possible. Since this is now a fantasy consist I will include the full dome observation car as well. Even with the shorter cars the train will be 15' long. The slightly darker grey of the Vision baggage car will help the transition to the MTH consist. They are a darker grey but look good together. I also just received the new Lionel FA2  AA with the super Bass B unit. I will be running these with my 1984 15" Aluminum NYC consist. I ordered the 2018 NYC dual 18" baggage sound cars to help this transition. Lots of fun trying to make it all look good together.

@breezinup posted:

Expecting color matches between manufacturers is a very risky business. It can happen, but it's rare.

If someone buys an engine, they would be advised to buy the same manufacturer's matching passenger cars, and vice versa.

Very true.  Problem here is the grey on this loco is way too light, almost looks like it has a pinkish hue in certain lighting.  And if it matches the Lionel cars all that tells you is that they are likely wrong too.  Watch the prices on the early 2000s variants shoot up.  The legacy models certainly have wonderful features but after you run the locomotive a few times, the novelty of those things fades and the real issue is how the locomotive looks and runs, and whether you have a layout worthy of the loco.

I contacted Lionel again and have some additional information.  As others have already posted, the covers were never intended to be included with the PT versions.  However, Lionel will be producing additional covers that will be available on lionelsupport.com for purchase.  No exact date as to when the covers will be available, early spring is a rough estimate.  I'm looking forward to when the covers become available.

@Duncan H W Foster posted:

Well my Lionel Dreyfuss arrived today.  I like the light grey of the 5454 as it is almost a dead match for the Lionel Vision 18" baggage sound car.

I thought 5454 was the darker "flip-flopped" scheme for the 1948 TCL?

@Ray Lombardo posted:

Very true.  Problem here is the grey on this loco is way too light, almost looks like it has a pinkish hue in certain lighting.  And if it matches the Lionel cars all that tells you is that they are likely wrong too.  Watch the prices on the early 2000s variants shoot up.  The legacy models certainly have wonderful features but after you run the locomotive a few times, the novelty of those things fades and the real issue is how the locomotive looks and runs, and whether you have a layout worthy of the loco.

You're thinking of the standard gray versions. He's talking about the fantasy paint scheme of the 5454 loco. You'll see it in the catalog. I bought both locomotives the 5454 and the 5449 and the 5449 is definitely gray, not white and nowhere near pink. The 5454 is a medium dark bluish gray body with the gray stripe on the tender. I like the colors. And as I've pointed out in I don't know how many posts now, nobody really knows exactly what the color and shade was. None survived and the photos are degraded B/W or faded degraded color.

This is my 5454. Its at my train club now. I'll take some shots of the 5449 and post them later.

" 5449 is definitely gray, not white and nowhere near pink."

Agree.  Where did the idea that these locos look white with a pink shade come from?   Is this from folks who have actually seen the model in person?  I'm not aware of any form of color blindness that would lead to such a bizarre interpretation.

There are archival materials that provide evidence for a much darker gray.  The locomotive as made is clearly a light gray in Lionel's current rendition.  Looks pretty spiffy to me .  Clearly not what some folks wanted or expected, but just fine for others.

@Landsteiner posted:

" 5449 is definitely gray, not white and nowhere near pink."

Agree.  Where did the idea that these locos look white with a pink shade come from?  

From comparing the photos of what was delivered (as shown here on the forum) versus what was shown in the catalog.

Downstairs in the train room, I own a large portrait (black and white) of three Dreyfus Hudsons.  It is impossible to tell the precise shade of grey in a black and white photo, but the shading shows much darker locomotives.  Not black, but much more of the grey you would see on the 2002 model.  

I am glad that those of you with the model are happy, no snark intended.  I just was disappointed when I saw the photos.  Reminds me of the big color miss on the first responders SD60E from a number of years ago - it was practically pink.   I was very disappointed and found the MTH version, much closer to what I had seen at Union Station in DC.  

It would be interesting if someone, Ryan Kunkle from Lionel for instance, read this thread and commented on why Lionel chose the shade of gray that it did. They must have had some reasons.

"From comparing the photos of what was delivered (as shown here on the forum) versus what was shown in the catalog."

In person, the locomotive is a fairly light shade of gray, nothing remotely white, nothing remotely pink in tone.  Clearly not as dark a gray as seen in previous models, and slightly lighter than the catalog pictures.  Much lighter gray than what is derived from the archival materials someone has shown us.  Some will find it satisfactory, some not.  It is a beautiful locomotive overall in my view.  Someone described it as hideous, which strikes me as hysteria .

@Landsteiner posted:

"From comparing the photos of what was delivered (as shown here on the forum) versus what was shown in the catalog."

In person, the locomotive is a fairly light shade of gray, nothing remotely white, nothing remotely pink in tone.  Clearly not as dark a gray as seen in previous models, and slightly lighter than the catalog pictures.  Much lighter gray than what is derived from the archival materials harmonyards has shown us.  Some will find it satisfactory, some not.  It is a beautiful locomotive overall in my view.  Someone described it as hideous, which strikes me as hysteria .

Do me a favor please, don’t drag my name into this conversation for another lick. Thanks!…

Pat

I saw the New Dreyfuss at Eastside Trains in Kirkland WA (They easily have a hundred engines in their display shelves, most are O-gauge). I loved the look of the engine!   Unfortunately, my layout has 54 inch curves so the Dreyfuss is too big for my layout.

I did find the the article on the colors in the NYCHS web site. 

New York Central System Historical Society, Inc.: NYC Colors (nycshs.blogspot.com)

I thought that the article was well written. 

The article has  pictures of the dark grey and light grey  on 4' x 6" metal plates as well as the paint chip codes for Sherwin-Williams oil based paint.

  I am purposely not giving my opinon on the shade of grey used,  however the author of the article, Thomas Gerbracht,  started  with "I feel like the guy who just bought a second watch. When I had one watch, I knew what time it was. Now I am not so sure…"

Thomas has 8 points in his conclusions,  #7 is:

"If you are viewing these color samples on your home computer, some or all of the color images may convey an incorrect impression as to the veracity of these results. This is due to the different specifications of each computer monitor manufacturer, amibent light conditions, and many other factors. You will have to use the formulas to exactly match the colors described and photographed for this article."

I am not looking to restart the debate, I do not want this thread to get deleted,  just providing a resource to look at for additional "color" on the situation. 

Dave B.

Very interesting and helpful.  I would encourage others to read and decide for themselves.  It would be good to hear from Lionel as well.

@DL Brunette posted:

I did find the the article on the colors in the NYCHS web site.

New York Central System Historical Society, Inc.: NYC Colors (nycshs.blogspot.com)

Thank you so much for providing the link. I appreciate the way the article is written in the style of an inquiry that incorporates skepticism, actual data, analysis, and identification unresolved uncertainties.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

It would be interesting if someone, Ryan Kunkle from Lionel for instance, read this thread and commented on why Lionel chose the shade of gray that it did. They must have had some reasons.

I have answered this question, that is anyone from Lionel commenting. Ryan had said previously on a different post a year or more ago, something to the effect of why bother commenting. I understand Ryan's point on that particular topic, because no matter what he would say, he would get blasted from all sides. I would suggest that if you want to see what Ryan says, email him as that would be the only way for sure you would have a chance to see what he says.

I can see why some might look at this photo and think it's a shade of off-white. But compare it to the white roof of the E8 in the background and you will see the gray color. Also the locomotive looks more gray to the naked eye than it does with the way the light from the camera is picking it up. Still it is a very light gray color and perhaps lighter than it should have been but still a very beautiful model locomotive and passenger car set.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I have answered this question, that is anyone from Lionel commenting. Ryan had said previously on a different post a year or more ago, something to the effect of why bother commenting. I understand Ryan's point on that particular topic, because no matter what he would say, he would get blasted from all sides. I would suggest that if you want to see what Ryan says, email him as that would be the only way for sure you would have a chance to see what he says.

I'm not trying to get Ryan blasted and I don't have his email address.

@Dave 69 GTEL posted:

I can see why some might look at this photo and think it's a shade of off-white. But compare it to the white roof of the E8 in the background and you will see the gray color. Also the locomotive looks more gray to the naked eye than it does with the way the light from the camera is picking it up. Still it is a very light gray color and perhaps lighter than it should have been but still a very beautiful model locomotive and passenger car set.

For a high-end model that is supposed to be true to the prototype, it's way off the mark, this was not advertised as a "fantasy scheme" BTO.

@Arthur posted:

For a high-end model that is supposed to be true to the prototype, it's way off the mark, this was not advertised as a "fantasy scheme" BTO.

No it was advertised as something that would match the color of Lionel's interpretation of the 20th Century cars. I guess they never claimed that it was a completely prototypical color. I never saw them say that. Did you waste your money on a set? I hope not.

Had the opportunity as I was curious to use a friends engine and then compare the 5452 and the fantasy 5454 to the Lionel passenger cars and then I pulled out my K line car to compare also.    Not great at taking videos but I put one engine on each end of the Lionel passenger car and then again with the K line passenger car.
Just posting for reference since I did this last night and saw this topic.    FYI.