Blackwater Canyon Line - March 20, 2025, Brick Street Extension Planning

John, 

I just saw your latest post.  Yes, we have proven what you knew all along, the second turntable takes up less room than the loop.  You just have to position the tracks to the table in the right positions.  24" versus 42"!  Duh on my part!! 

Mark Boyce posted:

John,

Your points about 30" or less reach is well taken.  I have had my "temporary" 4 x 8 layout up for over 2 years changing it from Christmas to Summer theme and back.  It is a 2" sheet of foam on a folding table.  To do any track work in the back, (and I have had trouble with Flextrack there) I have to slide the foam out at an angle, then crawl under the corner to the newly opened area, because there is a dresser at each end blocking the way.  When I just want to change a building in the back, I have been sliding it in by placing it on the end of a 4' stitck and gingerly moving it in place with the stick.  I HATE IT!  LOL. That is why the Christmas theme is still up and I am in no hurry to take it down.  I am pushing 61, and am more limber than a lot of guys my age, but I am well aware I am in decline!  LOL

That said just to emphasize I need realativly easy access to all points.

John,

Two points I like about the initial design.  First, I agree it is a more interesting run than the 'What If' I proposed that Dave then ran with.  Second, and I forgot to mention earlier, these later plans have a situation where the track crosses over several 'yard/fiddle' tracks or switches.  While lots of folks like that interest, it doesn't resemble anything on the prototype, and I'm not looking for that.  I have a friend on Facebook who is building a very handsome layout, and it has a track bridging over a yard.  He built an ingenious sectional bridge he can lift out for access.  Cool, but not what I had in mind.

 I want to sketch out the scenic possibilities of the initial snaking design with tunnels and see what the views could be.  I have something in mind, but want to get it on paper.

One more thing, while more tracks and switches make for more operation possibilities, they can also clog up the layout and I could lose the mountains effect.

Yes, I proved I can handle any grade we have discussed.  

This has been most interesting and fun!  I appreciate every idea every one has offered.  I need to step back and take it all into consideration.

Mark:  You have a lot to think about.  I like your thought about keeping the mountainous look.  You will NEVER have enough space for staging/yard lanes.  I don't in my basement.

A fiddle area, or two, one at each "end", of your run, is the best idea.  I've seen a couple of rolling cabinets, made out of plastic, that would be perfect to store cars and exchange with ones on layout.  They would roll under your layout when not in use and when you need them just roll it out a little.

It would be good to have at least two short lanes at each town so you could uncouple the engine from its consist, pull onto the turntable, turn, and be able to connect onto the rear of the same consist.

Any storing will have to be done under the layout.

PS:  ANOTHER THREAD just brought this idea to mind.  Collect some actual ballast and earth from the canyon and use it on your line!  We have done this on the Glacier Line.  We really think it's cool that actual ballast and earth from the prototype main is on our layout.  BNSF may not feel the same way.

John C. posted:

PS:  ANOTHER THREAD just brought this idea to mind.  Collect some actual ballast and earth from the canyon and use it on your line!  We have done this on the Glacier Line.  We really think it's cool that actual ballast and earth from the prototype main is on our layout.  BNSF may not feel the same way.

Fortunately for me, the area I was modeling had been abandoned and the tracks gone. That said, I know of a guy who spotted a freshly dumped ballast pile for future track work. He returned with a few five-gallon buckets and some sifting trays. He collected the "dust" from the ballast and threw the ballast back into the pile. A couple of trains passed by and one of them radioed security. When they showed up and found out what he was doing, they advised him to stay on the side where he was working.

While I wouldn't go onto [active] railroad property, there are some who have managed to gather ballast dust without ending up in handcuffs.

Matt,

Great story about that fellow!  I am like you, the Blackwater Grade is now a bicycle trail.  While they probably hauled in gravel for the trail, (no it doesn't appear to be paved), I'm sure ballast and who knows what else can be found.  When we lived in West Virginia, we made a few trips up there and I looked around as much as I could with two toddlers.  Now that they are grown and married, I would be more free to look around.  I just need to drop my wife off at the shops in Thomas and go over to the old railroad grade.  Win-win!

Unless she spends everything you've got in town.  :-)

John C. posted:

Unless she spends everything you've got in town.  :-)

I am very fortunate that my wife, among many other good attributes, is thrifty and a bargain hunter.  Both our daughters learned from her very well!  

I have had a lot going on, but will be commenting soon about the layout design.  We have 4 elderly relatives, my parents, aunt, and mother-in-law who are all in good health (for late 80s to early 90s) but we have to help out.  Like everything else, when it rains, it pours!  LOL

Dave,

You saw my dilemma, (as I knew in the beginning there would be dilemmas), I only have so much space, and I would like to make the most of it.  There would have to be major decisions on what to go with, and what to leave out.  I have always liked turntables, but I also want some modeled town areas along with mountain scenery!  Can one have his cake and eat it too?  Possibly not in O gauge in under 144 square feet.  

That is what I asked for lots of ideas.  After looking over these plans, I like them a lot.  I do intend to run some point to point, but I would also like to do some continuous running too.  Continuous run doesn't have to be around in circles.  I can run up the mountain, and pretend I am continuing down the other side heading on towards Cumberland.  Then a run back up and finally terminate the run.  The part of the loop that gets hidden by trees, can represent the mainline going on through, or it can represent the branch line going to Davis.  There are a lot of scenarios that can be run here!

As to the passing siding halfway down, I don't know yet.  By myself, I may find it too difficult to get two trains to meet properly, like happened on a small layout I had years ago.  On the other hand, now that I run command control, I may be able to get it to work.  Of course if I had a second operator, then it would be no sweat.  Yes, without it it would look more like the scene I sent you in the photo.  I will have to find that photo for the group, but not this evening.  That doesn't need decided yet.

The staging tracks underneath was a surprise when you added them.  I did some measuring, and then setup a couple shelves to test the idea.  While I didn't have anything on hand to represent the top shelf that stuck out as far as needed here, I didn't have any problem reaching in to the rear cars.  Maybe the farthest in track would be impractical to reach, but overall I like the idea.  Again, that doesn't need decided yet, though it would have to be early in construction.  

I like the idea of the lift out hatches.  With 2-inch thick foam bases and foam scenery, they would weigh very little, and I could hide the visible edges with bushes, etc.

Oh, but I forgot to mention those spurs in the top right corner would be excellent to keep a couple engines parked when not in use.  I am so afraid of dropping engines, though it wouldn't be as bad with John's suggested rubber flooring tiles.  Still, I have trouble gripping the heavier engines with the arthritis in my thumbs, and by heavier, I don't mean very heavy either.  Also, that Lionel engine house could be used representing the one in the Davis photo.

Well folks, what does everyone else think.  I do have on 24" turntable on hand, that could be used, but not in these plans.  I would like to have one, but they do take up space that could be sceniced.  

Thank you everyone who has participated.  If I don't respond until late tomorrow, it is because I will be going to the Greenberg show in Monroeville, Pennsylvania.  I'm taking a friend who hasn't had trains for years, but he is excited to go.  I'm hoping he catches the bug when he sees the Pittsburgh Independent HiRailer's modular layout.  It was 15 degrees this morning with wind chill on top of that; snow and ice; but tomorrow morning is to be in the 30s and high up around 50, so I hear.

Mark,
Just so you know, a turntable is still an option, it just limits your landscaping options unless you follow through with your idea for a removable platform in that area. And as you can see, I was able to add some whisker tracks. They vary from ~12" to ~30", but that depends on where you specifically place the turntable.
NOTE: Sorry about the 3D image, the turntable automatically fills the space below.

One caveat is that I don't know how deep the turntable pit is, so I'm not sure about clearance for the staging yard. Also, the version with the passing siding presents some grade challenges if you want both the turntable and yard. It should be noted that the turntable and whisker tracks, when rotated, could also fit where the lower loop is. As you know, the idea for the staging track started with just a single track so you could be staging a new train while the other was running and it blossomed into a yard.

One final thought that I haven't modeled is that if you take out the yard, the blue track could wind beneath the upper level to make the run longer. However, access would be limited, but I wanted to throw the idea out there because I don't think you have enough to think about.

Well I ran into several OGR Forum members at the Greenberg show in Monroeville, Pennsylvania today.  A couple commented on this topic. Yes, Dave, as if I didn't have enough to think about, you add another idea.    That's okay!  That is why I started this topic.  Everyone should be happy to know I only bought one thing at the show; an MTH 2-bay hopper car for the layout.  I really didn't see anything else that tugged at me, maybe because in the back of my mind I was thinking, I need to buy lumber and track!!    I did have a good time at the show, and was glad to visit with so many Forum members!

Oh, yes the turntable is the Atlas O that screws down on the top of the table; no pit, so clearance isn't an issue.  I am thinking against it and going with the other plan with the loops and the passing track.  I may not use the passing track when I am by myself, but it would be fun if someone else was running trains with me.

Can't wait to hear the idea.

Oh the idea was the one you mentioned about taking the yard out and Snaking the blue line in and back out for a longer run.  You mentioned access, and I agree that could be a problem.  I could get my hands in to the front tracks of her yard, but snaking the main line in would put it farther back.  The only way I think, and I have never seen this before would be to make it removable with latches holding it down normally.  That is getting too complicated to be practical for me.  Too hard to construct, and too heavy to slide out.  I want to keep it simple and maintainable as I get older.  I don't want to overthink this.  LOL

I misunderstood, I thought you got the idea at the show yesterday when talking to some folks from the forum.

Your comment though does bring up the question of how you envision your 2nd level being supported. It may be too early to mention this, but with the yard beneath the loop, the design assumes that section of the 3/4" plywood decking will be supported by pylons while the rest can be on a grid, something like shown in the photo. The black lines are the grid frame, the gray is the decking over the yard supported by pylons, the black circles.

Dave,

Yes I see that the pilons would provide the widest access spaces to those tracks.  If I was running trains and not wanting to have the lower tracks visible thinking they were distracting, I could make removable fascia panels.  I would probably just leave it open all the time, because I pretty much focus on the train I'm running and the immediate scenery around it.  Thank you for the exploded view of that section.

Well, you've got some time to think about skirting and fascia, even after the track is laid. I can envision detachable faux rock wall sections that would be attached with pins for alignment and magnets to hold them in place. A lot will depend on how you decide to landscape, but I don't think making removable panels will be as difficult as you may think. Just be sure to include some lighting underneath so you can see things.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Hi Mark,

I couldn't help trying a couple of different approaches to John's design that might better fit your space and desired operation. See what you think.

NOTE: I updated this based on the changes you emailed today. (I should have noticed that and moved those upper spurs to the outside. )

 

I replaced both turntables with reversing loops to allow for the placement of buildings, trees, mountain, etc. For example, you could place a logging operation in the top loop, then paint a logging truck coming down to a loading platform on the wall. There are ways to use trees and other landscaping elements to make it look like a train with empty cars is arriving and a train with full cars is departing. A mill would be located on the upper access hatch and a lumber yard and other building would be in the bottom loop. 

 

I also changed the lower loop to make it look smoother, moved the lower loop to eliminated tracks crossing over each other and added a possible hidden staging yard (pylons are for visibility).

 

In the first example, the yellow track is at 8”, the blue track is at 0" and the purple grade is 3.3%. The red dots denote tracks that need to be cut. The staging yard is optional and can be deleted simply by replacing the switch and make-up curve with a full O42 curve. Even though this doesn't have a passing siding, it allows more space for landscaping the incline with trees, etc., like the magazine photos you emailed.

 

 

In this 2nd example, the yellow track is at 7”, the green track is at 2”, the blue track is at 0", the longer purple grade is 3.6%, the shorter purple grade is 3.3% and the passing siding has been included. The entry to the staging yard is kind of curvy, but backing in would be slow, it can be straightened by altering the bench work a bit and cutting the transition track coming off the switch.

 

 

Dave:  NOT faulting your effort...I love the drawing program you are using.  

There are multiple issues here:  There are turnouts situated improperly.  Curve part is main line.  Switch is set for potential "S" curves.  Multiple sections of track over over switches/yard area.  Bottom area has completely changed and is eating up too much space...reach is becoming a major issue.  Accessing cars parked in that yard is going to be a pain in the rear with tracks over it.  Personal issue....I don't like the toy train loop at the bottom of the drawing--it may be possible to disguise this loop then access would be come even further restricted.  The passing siding has really been shortened.

This area is relatively small.  This plan now includes a "continuous" option, which isn't bad in itself, but with the limited run, this track configuration is turning into a looping toy train layout.

I realize everyone is different, everyone has their own opinion and tastes, but Mark relayed to me that he wanted something more realistic.  This drawing isn't.

It would be a heck of a lot more realistic, interesting, fun and challenging to create the original design and run point to point.  At the end of the run, as in real life, the engine would have to be turned and serviced for its return trip.  It would require switching the caboose position as well.  This would give an Operator(s) something to do.  The track arrangement above would require some one to turn the power on and sit and watch.

If someone would do the looping arrangement above I would place the track on the floor--Fastrak or similar.  It would be easier to access everything and when a person got tired of the looping the arrangement could be changed without great expense.

I know this sounds snotty, short and sarcastic....NONE of that is my intention.  I am/was merely attempting to fulfill Mark's request of having a more realistic arrangement.  

Lastly, Dave you are great! to help all the people, including me, in this Forum.  I understand and appreciate the time and effort it takes to do the drawing.

I wish I had your program and skill.  You seem to be able to produce these quickly.

My two cents....and at least since I'm Mark's unofficial adviser, I can offer my personal observations.  :-) 

Thank you for your comments, John!  When Dave first saw my topic, I would think he probably noticed similarities in my crude software drawing with a design he was working on for himself last year.  My design was influenced by his and another fellow, Jason17112.  Of course I was asking anyone for ideas as that concept was not just what I was looking for.  As too S curves, yes those are details that can easily overlooked until someone else points them out.  Thanks for that.  Yes, the holding yard is a concept that seems attractive, but even as I tested that I could reach in an pick up cars on the front two or three tracks, but what happens if I need to repair a bad switch or section of track? I admitted above, I would have to make the top level removable, or the lower yard track slide out; both of which would probably be nightmares for me to construct and maintain in themselves.  When Dave added it to the design a number of days ago, he said he was just throwing it in for comment.  I am thinking the only part of it that would be practical for me would be to only have one track going off the mainline there and staying right at the front.  No there isn't really any prototype for it in the real Blackwater Grade, but there is no passing siding either.  I have the track diagrams for the whole line from Elkins to Cumberland, which I got from the Western Maryland Historical society back in the 1990s.  The section in question only shows two stub sidings along the grade, one about 1/3 of the way up and another 2/3 of the way up.  I am not interested in modeling them.  No room for the flat spots for one.  As I said a day or two ago, I probably wouldn't use the passing siding when operating alone, which would be most of the time.  If the lower yard under the Davis/Thomas area wasn't there, the passing track could be longer, but I'm leaning against that.

You are right, I do want to have trains go from one place to another with a purpose.  That is the point to point idea.  However, I do like to see a train travel a ways before reaching it's destination.  The clever ways both John and Dave looped track around to make a longer run really helps this problem.  Still I envisioned the run being too short.  That is where I drew on the thinking of layout builders who use the oval make a few laps, and stop at the station and set out a car. Then they continue along, and when they come to the same station in a few laps, they pretend it is a different town, and set off a car at the other siding, and on it goes.  I admit, I have found the concept to be a bit hokey, but I can see it would work for the person who has little space, and doesn't want just a small switching shelf layout.  I don't want to do it that way, but I think I would like to say make a train at the bottom, run up to the top, but loop back behind some false fronts, trees, or something that can be make it look like the train just went out of view. when it comes back into view before going down, I would be thinking in my mind it is going on down the other side of the mountain to another town.  It could loop back at the lower town and go up again where it would terminate giving a run 3 times as long.  Yes, I would have to use imagination, but I think it serves both desires, since I am way short on room to make a run that long linear.

As to access; I didn't ask, but I took for granted that Dave is representing a person with the blue circles, but with the larger cutout access area with the black lines farther out around them.  I can make foam based lift out scenery to cover them when I don't need access.  Now, the blue loop at the bottom is near the window that goes into the laundry.  it is low enough, I can reach through there to access that area.  I do not know yet whether I will leave it open to view the layout in that way (I think my wife wants it open), but I could make a removable backdrop section on it.  If the blue yard isn't there, I could make another access hole there.  I did realize that I wanted a bit more scenery than the turntables would allow.

Oh, another note, I could not envision the scenery I wanted with the long grade downhill with the downhill loops crossing over themselves.  I sent Dave a couple scanned photos of an HO layout from another magazine publisher.  I thought it improper to post the photos from another magazine here, though I would like to very much.  This arrangement allows for that type scenery whether the passing track is in or not.

John, the very best idea is the one you suggest where I lay it all out on the floor and try it out.  I have the room fairly empty; yesterday I took down the grade test and the reaching into an 7" high enclosure test.  I also have a bunch of engine and rolling stock boxes in the room that I put there when I emptied the closet under the stairs to find my books and articles.  I took photos of the box ends to go with my spreadsheet listing everything I own.  I am ready to pull the remaining boxes out to photograph and put them all away.  I have the little table with my Z4000 and DCS on it that powered the grade test.  Once the boxes are out of the way, I will build the mainline with turnback loops on the floor, (Dave's plan) and try the scenario I mentioned above for a while, I will then remove the turnback loops and make it truly point to point and try it out that scenario for a while.  Then I will have a better idea of what I want.  Do I want the point to point I was planning many years ago, but in a much smaller space in a much larger scale, or do I want to fudge some to make the run seem a little longer.  At this point, I am going to take the neutral stance and see what happens.  Excellent idea John!!

In the meantime, I will buy paint, research some track lighting, and price lumber.  

John and Dave, thank you both for lots of contribution, and thank you everyone else who have thrown in some other points.  I will welcome anyone's comments!  Who knows, maybe one of you out there has a third very different option you would like to share!!    You are welcome to share if you do have anything.  You don't need to support Dave, John, Me, or anyone.  I'm pushing 61; though in time I realize I may want to make some changes, I do not want to be dissatisfied with the whole concept a few years from now but not feel like starting over.  

I really like the original and track going under twice...but the other way does improve the grade.  It also lengthens the run.  I understand that the turntables do take up valuable scenery room, but they help with reach.

If you do end up looping, on one end or the other, or both, do your best to plan how you will visually "divide" to get away from the looping toy train layout look.  There is nothing like that in the canyon.  

I don't know what your skill level is in regard to "pop-up" hatches, but that would be a good option for aesthetics and accessibility.  

I like having a "continuous" option, but in your area it just eats up so much space.  I think a turntable would be super interesting and impressive in the lower area.  Up to you?  You've got a million and one things to decide!  I'm curious to see what you'll do.  I know you are too.  :-)

I gathered up some track, moved some boxes, and have about 1/3 snapped together on the floor, for my mainline time test at 10 Scale mph.  That's all since it was Valentine's Day.  Kim gave me an MTH Premier 2-bay hopper to add to the collection of rolling stock for the layout.  A knowing wife is a blessing!

Mark,

I'm posting the latest designs we've come up with substituting Ross switches for the GarGraves switches in the original versions. The version in this first photo uses standard switches. As you can see, in order to accommodate the engine spurs, the loop now covers some tracks below requiring a tunnel or some unique way to deal with the overhang. The Red circles denote tracks that have to be cut. The curvy tracks with no color show how the hidden spur would run if you substituted an O42 switch for the Wye switch.

The version in this second photo shows the same basic design with 2 modifications. The curve in the upper left now uses a Ross Curved O72/O54 switch. As you can see, the loop needed to be move more to the right and doesn't cover as much track below. However, in order to accommodate the engine spurs, I had to keep the 2 GarGraves O42 switches in that area.

Because there was some concern about reach, I added 30" circles to show how much of the track runs could feasibly be reached from the edge of the bench work and the access hatches. As you can see, there is one section along the top right where a stool will need to be used. There is room for an access hatch, but it would be to be a little less than 18"x24". 

NOTE: In both versions, the grade starts just inside the tunnel. If you start the grade outside the tunnel, the slope increases from 3.0% up to 3.4% depending on where you start it. I relocated and reoriented both spurs inside the loops to give you as much space as possible for landscaping. The centers of the tracks along the walls are on the 5" grid mark and should allow clearance for the engines and rolling stock you intended to run.

NOTE 2: The only other thing I can think of to try is to move the lower section of grade track closer to the wall and extend the tunnel. I don't know if tunnels on inclines is prototypical, but it would allow you to landscape that entire area as the side of a canyon and it would look like this:

Last evening I performed my timed test.  At 10 scale mph the 0-8-0 completed a reasonable representation of the plan using Fastrak 036 and 048 curves came to be 2:45.  At 5 scale mph it was 5:05.  10 may be a bit fast, but I think 5 is pretty slow for going uphill.  So, it was a reasonable test.  It takes almost a minute to move an engine 180 degrees on the Atlas turntable.  Fiddle around with some cars on and off, and time fiddling comes in between the two timed tests, I would say.  Too short of a run for me.  

I checked the overhang for clearance purposes while setup.  On the 036 curve, my longest overhang was a bit less than 2 1/2 inches from the center line of the track.  I even tried a couple 15" passenger cars, and they came in just under that.  So, that isn't too bad at all.  Here is a photo of part of my setup, I actually didn't have enough straight sections to replicate, so I used curves out of a Thomas set.

 Dave,

The plans look great!  I like the one with the circles showing reach that has the curved turnout at the upper level.  I am not concerned about a grade on a tunnel.  I will just makes sure my roadbed and track are excellent before I cover it.  While on the topic, I did a little research and there are many railroad tunnels on grades.  I know the Gallitzin Tunnels at Tunnel Hill between Altoona & Horseshoe Curve and the West Slope & Johnstown have slight grade difference.  I was surprised to learn the following:

There is a 1.7% grade inside BNSF's Cascade Tunnel (7.79 miles long) that is approached on either end by 2.2% grades on the rest of the mainline there. BNSF's Stampede Pass tunnel, was built in the 1880s with ascending grades from either end. The summit of Stampede Pass is literally inside the mountain.

I never knew this but the Spiral Tunnels in Kicking Horse Pass are a classic example of two tunnels that climb and then pass over their origins to get around a section of track that used to be 4%.  Here is a picture from when it was built in 1909.  I guess as they say, there is a prototype for everything.

I really think that is the plan for my layout.  Of course, I know there will be modifications along the way, but it does what I am looking for in this relatively small space for O gauge.  I couldn't find a model photo online to show adequately what I envision on the pink wall, but imagine another track in the valley below the main halfway up.  Of course, we all have to scale the scenery way, way down, but that gives an idea.

I need to get some paint and track lighting up in that room and then move forward.  Thank you for your interest everyone!!

Since it's at the beginning, the grade in the tunnel is very slight and shouldn't present any problem other than making sure the portal is properly placed with sufficient clearance. Is there something specific you like about the version with curved switch? The switch itself or something else?

Dave,

Yes, the upper track is not right over the track in the tunnel.  It isn't the switch, in and of itself.  If I make a removable scenic top to the tunnel, then I would still be able to access that track if I needed to do maintenance or found it easier to get a derailment if something was stuck.  Now I'm not so concerned about the staging track under the loop, because I can make a front panel for access.

You mentioned something to me about short tunnels where you can see both ends of the train.  I know of lots of them.  Tracks along the Allegheny River and Potomac river sometimes go through short tunnels to save going around big over 180 degree bends in the river.  As for model trains, I'm not one for the train disappearing into a tunnel and wondering when, (and to the visitor, where) the train will emerge.  So a short tunnel if it is sceniced properly is very good for me.  I like the idea of the tracks at two levels on the mountainside instead of one covered by a tunnel also.

You did a really wonderful job on these.  Thank you very much!!!

What does everyone else think?  If you see something you would like to question or add a new idea, I'm open to hear from you.  Thanks!!

Mark, that's kind of what I expected and I can't disagree. I also figured you'd like the new staging spur better too, so I'm going to delete the alternate one. I know of short tunnels too, just wanted to make sure you were okay with it and I get what you're saying about the long tunnel, just wanted to show an alternative. I'll save the other files and we'll work off the one with the curved switch as we go forward. It's been a lot of fun working on these, but I hope others will take a hard look at them to see what we've missed.

One of the great things about this thread is how seemingly unrelated ideas and suggestions are slowly evolving into a solid plan to go forward with. Experience and knowledge backed with research and prototype testing. This is a good example of the engineering process. Very entertaining. Mark, I'm sure you will be happy with the final result of you effort. 

Pat, I had only partially realized what you are saying, but now I agree with it all.  I posted an initial idea influenced by ideas Dave and Jason were working on in other topics.  John C brought up the mountain layout based on the Blackwater Canyon.  Amazing that he picked that, when I had thoroughly researched the prototype almost 20 years ago and had a crude plan developing, before family took up more of my time.  

John came up with a concept of bringing cars and engines off each end of the layout.  Dave came up with an idea for a continuous run option.  I didn't want trains crossing over each other decending the mountain and wanted to incorporate both John and Dave's concepts into a longer run, but still giving the point to point flavor.

The software gave us the opportunity to calculate grades and clearances, and I thought why not test my engines to see what they can pull uphill.  Time on the route was a concern to, so John suggested I mock that up!  

This is just one of the things that is great about OGR Forum.  Collaboration.  Back long ago, I actually built a layout where I made a clay and cardboard mockup of my layout.  It was not to scale, but I followed it during construction and scenery.  This was before I had ever used a DOS computer.  I had absolutely no input from anyone except what I read in magazines.

Thank you Pat for your observation!

Mark:  You have really been thinking and testing all of this out.  Very smart.  You are way ahead of the game in planning how you are going to access areas for future issues.  You never know what will happen next.

I just had a crazy thing happen two days back.  Connie's new 4-8-4 stalls and dies and 1 24 inch curve of track, where everything else runs perfectly.  It is an area that has a "dead" rail to automatically activate crossing signals.  I also have two blocks "meet" in the "dead" rail area.  Apparently, the electrical pickups on Connie's monster engine are set just perfectly that it loses contact.  Thank God I didn't start cutting wires.  

Anyway, I must change my electrical division just slightly to keep the monster 4-8-4 going!  It is always something.  :-)  

You have a very good theme and plan for the Blackwater Canyon Line going.  You are going to have a truly great layout in an average space.  It can be done.   Many people say they don't have room, but there is always something you can do.  Your railroad will be another example.  Work on the daughter to provide you with some STELLAR back-drops!  :-)

John,

Well that seems a crazy problem to have with Connie's 4-8-4, but I understand the cause.  It just shows that whenever you think you have everything figured out, something can show you that you need to make adjustments.

Thank you for the comments on the plan!  It certainly has been a group effort, and will continue to be, at least from a thinking perspective.  Maybe you missed it, but I bought George's (G3750) professionally painted backdrops a couple weeks ago.  He was selling them in preparation for moving across state.  They go very well with my theme, I think.  My daughter, Heidi, already saw them and approved.  She said she can match up whatever else I may need.  The Ohio River portion will be covered by some tree covered mountain scenery.  Another group effort!  Here's the photos.

We have discussed benchwork types here a bit and on Mike Rodgers' build topic.  Having built open grid and L-girder, I hadn't quite decided.  I saw a topic in the Buy Sell part of the Forum where someone was looking for a particular DVD from Kalmbach's Dream, Plan, Build series.  I bought a few, so I took a look to see if I had it.  I didn't think so, but I did find one with a segment on L-girder construction by George Sebastian-Coleman.  I was able to pretty much remember how to build it, but the one thing George said several times was that if you didn't have help, one person can build it by himself.  He showed how he did it with no help.  He also used a Skil saw with an adjustable fence to rip through OSB to make most of his dimensional lumber.  I have one and have ripped lumber before, so I feel more confident I can handle it myself.

I'll finish with Big Run Culvert today and yesterday.

Mark, I can see that last photo as the left entrance to the tunnel we have below the upper level I the design.

Dave, It is interesting you say that.  That is the Big Run Culvert near the lower end of the canyon.  I am planing to make a stream coming down and going through the culvert.  Since we need tunnel portals, it only makes sense that they would be constructed similarly because they would have been designed by the same engineer and built about the same time.  I think you are absolutly correct!!

I did some consulting with Carl (moonman) and he suggested some changes, so I incorporated them in the latest design.

Basically, he suggested I resize the tunnel fronts the entire cliff below the upper deck and will look better once landscaping it added rather than have the landscaping kind of "pouring" unto the tunnel entrance.

He also found a Ross switch that I missed. I had looked for a better switch for the upper loop so the spurs would be parallel. I looked through the list of numbered switches, but it was at the beginning of the switches in the library and not with the numbered switches where I was looking. As you can see, the spurs are now parallel and free up a little extra space for landscaping.

I also changed the spurs in the lower loop to match, but the one may need to be clipped because the transition piece is so long.

We discussed the hidden siding a bit and I said you may or may not use it. As I said in email it costs quite a bit, but if nothing else, the tunnel gives the impression there is somewhere else for trains to go. If you have a logging operation up top and a mill down below, it could suggest a route to delivery destinations for the milled lumber. Still might be expensive though just to get that "look".

We also talked about landscaping and he said he has some buildings in SCARM format, so if you have some ideas of what kind of structures you might want, he'll send them to me and we can do some more brainstorming. I also saw a thread with several too that I need to download just to have for future use.

That looks like an amazing track plan!   

Jdevleerjr posted:

That looks like an amazing track plan!   

Jim,

You are so right!  Between John C.'s ideas, Dave's SCARM skills, and now Carl's input, I am really happy with the plan!!  If you have read back, we have done some testing both electronically (SCARM) and physically (me mocking up some grades and track on the floor to make sure I can handle the grades and just how long a mountain train will take to traverse the layout.  I am really excited about putting this plan into action!  Thanks for your comment!

I was off work today, so I went to Home Depot and Lowes.  I bought spackle for the holes from our daughter's shelves and Sherwin Williams Sky Blue paint.  It is a light blue.  So I went to the train room to put them in there and move some things around, and saw that the globe had fallen off the ceiling light fixture and shattered into thousands of pieces.  No damage was done, as the middle of the floor was empty.  I recalled that it is a twist on globe, and it was so wide and rather flat, that it was hard to take off to change bulbs.  I didn't tighten it the whole way last time, and so it slowly worked its way off.  I'm just glad it didn't happen when it was still an art studio.  That would have been a mess.

So after cleanup, I decided to mark off the floor where the tracks would go on the Thomas/Davis site to see which of my buildings would fit.  I had hoped to get the buildings in but didn't have time.  I took a photo of that much, but couldn't upload any photos right now for some reason.  I'll try again another day, after I try out some buildings.

Well, I finally figured out how much under 144 square feet this room is.  It is 130.3333 square feet, so I changed the title of my topic to match.

Here is a sketchy mock up of what I am looking to do at Thomas, WV.  That is the higher of the two towns.  The tape shows roughly where the track will go.  The broken lines don't mean it is hidden, I gust measured out several points from the center of the circle and put tape on those spots.  Note the second row of buildings are on top of Lionel boxes, representing the second street is higher up the hill.  The two buildings on the heater represent farther up the hill.  Don't worry about the heater.  We have never used it, and it is shut down.

I will do the same thing with the Hendricks town site with some different buildings and some of these.  This is just to give a representation of what I would like to do.  It is by no means etched in stone.

Here are some photos of the real place.  Note the third photo says the altitude is 3200 feet above sea level.

Well done, Mark. That looks good.

Used to hike and backpack around Tucker County, oh thirty years ago or so.  It was pretty quiet even then.  Did a little searching on more recent stats:

Thomas had 452 residents in 2000, and per capita income was $14,918

Hendricks had 319 residents in 2000, per capita income was $21,315

Tucker counted 7,321 in 2000 census, is West Virginia's second-least populous county.

Dave,

Thank you!

Bill,

I was not aware Tucker is the least populated county.  Thank you for the info.  We used to live outside Keyser in Mineral County and I worked at the Vepco Power Station, which I think is in Grant County.  We did some sightseeing in Tucker County, as much as you can do with preschoolers.  Now they are grown and married.  We wouldn't mind retiring there, if it wasn't for family here in Butler County Pennsylvania.

Impressive design, and the mock up looks great.

Thank you Orind!!

it is a tribute to what a group effort on the OGR Forum can accomplish.  I have to thank John C, DoubleDAZ Dave, and Moonman Carl for taking my initial thoughts, putting them into an imagitive plan, and working with me to adjust to what you see now.  I am really excited about this plan and the whole concept behind it!  Thank you everyone!!

Mark- I haven't commented lately but I have been following your progress. I like the evolution of the track plan and the mock ups. Can't wait to see the real thing in action.

Bob

PS- sorry to see that the room got smaller. Too bad it wasn't the other way right?

Mark I just got done catching up on your layout update, you sure have covered a lot of ground. I like the way you mock it up to give an idea of what you have and what you might want to change or tweek a little.

Sure is nice working with Carl and Dave, they are wiz-kids with that SCARM stuff!  Keep up the good work and don't let the room get any smaller!

Mark, what are the new room dimensions? The design is based on 136"x138", so if the room shrunk, the layout will have to shrink and the grade/loops may need some changes. With all the curves, there are no easy ways to shrink things. The upper loop already fills the space, so if the width is no longer 136", that's going to be a problem.

Thank you RSJB18 and Mike for the comments!  Yes at least the room isn't smaller, just my calculations make it seem smaller.  ;-)

Dave the dimensions are still 138 x 136.  I just meant that I had estimated it was a little less than 12' x 12' or 144 square feet.  Yesterday, I actually calculated how many square feet the room actually is.  138" x 136" = 130.3333 sq ft.  So no adjustment to the plan is necessary.  Thank you for asking, because if I had realized I had measured wrong initially, it would have needed adjustments.

Man, I like the track plan Mark. I know you have got to be excited to see this starting! I look forward to more updates and the start of construction!

Corey,

Thank you.  Yes I want to get started building too.  We will have to wait until I get the painting and lighting done, and who knows what other things besides the layout will take precedence.

Whew! Glad to hear that Mark. I never thought to do the math to be completely accurate in your title.

You have your track plan.  Why don't you just build it.  You can have trains running in a week.  Or less.

Hmmm.....If I got the materials gathered up, then took a week off work, or less, maybe I could get trains running.

The plan and mock up look great.  After spending 6 years driving to Morgantown WV from NJ and around the Morgantown area, you certainly have captured the look and feel of the area as I remember it.  This should be a fun project.

necrails posted:

The plan and mock up look great.  After spending 6 years driving to Morgantown WV from NJ and around the Morgantown area, you certainly have captured the look and feel of the area as I remember it.  This should be a fun project.

Thank you!  That is always good when someone familiar with the area thinks so.  I think I would find it harder to convey if it was an area I was not familiar with in person.  I look forward to trying to convey the same feel in the real layout!

I read above...was going to ask about what happened to 144????????????  You mean you aren't done yet Mark?!  :-)

Its the shrinking layout!

Yes DoubleDAZ Dave might have had a heart attack thinking I had measured wrong at first!!!  No, we are okay!

I ordered the track lighting yesterday, and it should be shipped to the nearest Home Depot in about a week.  I haven't had a chance to do anything more since last report.

 Thank you for the nice responses!

Wow I'm embarrassed that I haven't seen this thread until now....yeeesh I must be living under a rock.  I really like the track plan and the pre-planning you are doing for this, it will make all the difference when it comes time to put things down for good.  I'm going to be watching this build closely....  

Chris,

Thank you for the nice comments!  I know what you mean, not finding an ongoing topic earlier.  It's happened to me several times.  Then I feel like I have to play catch-up before asking something that had already been covered.  Ha ha!  I'm glad to have you following my planning and building topic as I am enjoying yours!

Just got my self caught up......wonderful plan....I am looking forward to the execution. I love to see plans like this....I am only a 2 dimensional thinker and have no capacity to think in 3 dimensions.

Peter,

I am in the same boat!  I can't say enough about the help DoubleDAZ Dave gave me with SCARM.  The only way to show what I am thinking for scenery is to find a photo of some place similar or build it up with a mock up.  Thank you for your interest!

I received an email that the track lights are in at Home Depot.  I plan to pick them up on the way home from seeing my aunt in assisted living and getting her taxes done.  I had hoped to get some room prep done this week, but there were too many other things going on.  I'll post when I have them and seeing what I can get done.

I'm sorry I haven't had much to report as of late.  I have been gathering materials, but finally made some progress in the appearance of the room.  I took down the shelves and spackled the holes in preparation to cover that awful pink with a nice light blue.  I am going to keep the shelf on the bulkhead that covers the furnace vents exiting the house.  I also shipped out some extra long cars that I am not going to use to get some more funds for the project.

It s a start Mark, no where to go but up now! Just enjoy the ride! LOL

You are right, Mike!!  Thanks!!

Item # 1.

Here is an excerpt from a comment I made on another topic yesterday.  It will tell you the latest in my line of thinking. 

Now, if you look at my topic that I have a link to in my signature (I'm on the iPhone now, or I would put a link here) I weighed the options, and decided against designing a plan that would let me run my Premier J 611 and 18" passenger cars.  My space is only 11 1/2 ft x 11 1/2 ft.  I even decided against running my J on my Ceiling Central RR in the next room, not because I was afraid of it falling off the track, but because I was afraid of dropping it when on a ladder trying to place it on and off the track.  The cars were sold last week, and I'm going to sell the J as well.  I don't have money to leave several hundred dollars just sitting on the shelf.  Ha ha!!

While this course of action may seem drastic, it was one of those decisions I pondered for a while, then all of a sudden it was a no brainer!!  I know my limitations lifting items to or above eye level, as I have a shoulder that was injured falling on ice 10 years ago that is not surgically repairable.  I would absolutely not ask anyone else to lift that engine either, because I would feel terrible that he would feel he let me down if he dropped it.  

I didn't mention my Weaver Gold edition B&O P7d Cincinnatian 4-6-2 or the MTH 18" cars that go with it.  I will process that after I sell the J 611.

Item #2.

A Facebook friend gave me a tip on a shop where I could get GarGraves track at a very good price.  I worked with the guy over the phone and email to get a good parts list of the GarGraves track.  We had some stainless track sections on the plan which we are replacing with standard Phantom line.  To make a long story short, he sent my order to GarGraves, and the whole order is to ship directly to me from GarGraves in another week or two.  If receive what has been promised, I will share the gent's name and Web site here, but I don't want to make a recommendation until I am sure the deal is completed satisfactorily.  I will still have to get the Ross switches, and; Oh yes, the lumber for the benchwork.  

So while nothing is happening on the layout build, per se; there is a lot of behind the scenes action staging the big build!

Mark,

Sorry to hear you are getting rid of the J. I know you really liked that set. I understand the whys of the choices you made though and when the new layout is operational, the loss will be forgotten. 

Mark,

Wish I lived closer to help you get your lumber!

That pink is going to be fun to paint over!  The third bedroom in our house was dark purple and I painted it white and converted it to a walk in for the Mrs.  It took several coats!

Mike

Pat Kn posted:

Mark,

Sorry to hear you are getting rid of the J. I know you really liked that set. I understand the whys of the choices you made though and when the new layout is operational, the loss will be forgotten. 

You are right, Pat!  It will be long forgotten!  Thank you for the comment.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Mark,

Wish I lived closer to help you get your lumber!

That pink is going to be fun to paint over!  The third bedroom in our house was dark purple and I painted it white and converted it to a walk in for the Mrs.  It took several coats!

Mike

Mike,

Thank you!  I'll get it done.  Our  daughter, who painted it pink, was over and made the same comment.  Since I'm not painting the brick wall and another wall is half taken up with the glass door; I won't have that much painting even if that wall takes several coats.

Mark Boyce posted:

We had some stainless track sections on the plan which we are replacing with standard Phantom line.

Sorry about that Mark, it's easy to pick the wrong section when making quick changes. I wish the 2 types were separate in the library.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

We had some stainless track sections on the plan which we are replacing with standard Phantom line.

Sorry about that Mark, it's easy to pick the wrong section when making quick changes. I wish the 2 types were separate in the library.

Dave, that was no problem at all.  I know what you mean about the library.  When I printed the parts list, it showed up.  I told the guy what a great job you did on the plan.  I sent it to him and he really liked it

You know I'm going to try to come see your layout when it's done, right?

I would be happy to have you visit Dave!

Soon I will start a construction topic in the 3-Rail Forum, but I have a few more things to add to the planning topic.

Yesterday I painted the walls blue, so the Pink Walls are gone forever.  Sorry John!    Here are before and after photos.

Normally I would have painted the white ceiling first, but we entertained the idea of painting the ceiling blue also, giving the effect of blue sky overhead.  Now, I'm leaning towards white.  

Tomorrow I am supposed to receive my order of GarGraves track.  I think I will put the pieces out on the floor just to see how it all looks with the proper diameter track.  I have a large, well seasoned workbench at my mother-in-law's that she doesn't use and would like me to get out of there.  It looks like a lot of the wood could be recycled into the layout.  Interestingly, there are two large sheets (12' long) of homasote on the workbench.  I will have to do some disassembly to move it over and take inventory.

Mark things are looking up for you! First the blue paint, and now a free workbench! Then to top it all off new track coming!

Mike,

You are right.  It all takes time.

Slow, but steady and sure progress.

I received my track Wednesday.  I still have to buy some Ross switches.  

I also painted the ceiling white Wednesday.  I need to do some touchup, then take the plastic dropcloths off everything and hang the new light.  I hope to do that tomorrow since they are still predicting rain, and I can't get out and rake up the winter leaves.  That really breaks my heart!

I'm sure that breaks your heart.....not.

Good luck hanging the light and getting the switches you need. I've been too busy to even think about my layout.

Mark:  Are you going to put your overhead lights on dimmer switches?

John,

Yes I have a dimmer for the lights.  I never had one before, but am putting one in for others' benefit. I don't get that big a kick out of low light running; but my wife does.  

Y'all know I'm an Engineer at Lutron, right?  Mark if you have ANY questions about picking out dimmers and dimming LEDS please don't hesitate to reach out to me.

No John, I only know you as an O gauge train enthusiast I met at Harry's!  LOL. 

Thank you for the offer.  I will get back to you when I have more time.  I have an errand to run now.  Always something!  LOL

The first reply was to John C.  The second was to John D.  This could get confusing!!

Hey Mark, everyone know you cant rake leaves in the rain. Let alone wet leaves, that should give you a couple of days for train room work!

Mike,

You are right.  It has rained hard a couple days, in fact we had hail last evening.  Too sloppy a mess out there.  Great weather for working in the train room.  

Well, I got the track lights hung and finished the painting.  I thought I may need another track light, but never having used them before, I thought I would not spend the extra money until I installed these.  The LED lights are great, but there are a few dark spots, so I will order one more from Home Depot.  I will have to add some wiring to do it.  With spring coming on, it may be a while before I get it installed, but I can do other things in the meantime.  That's all for today.  My old nemesis, chronic sinusitis, has me whipped.  I took a nap before writing this, but at least I got done what I hoped to today!  I have learned to not hope for much, and I might just get it accomplished!  

Here are some photos from what I reported yesterday.  First one of the lighting units showing a dark corner.

Next, I left the brick wall unpainted.  I hate to paint it, and I will have a backdrop there.  We will see how it goes.

Lastly, is my shipment of GarGraves track.

I bought two Ross Custom Switches Friday, so I still need to buy 9, but there is plenty of time for that.  I need to get some benchwork up first.  

I mentioned before that when I get ready to build the benchwork, I will shift to a layout build topic in the 027 and 3-Rail Forum.  I'll put links between the two.

Looking good, Mark!!!

Mark, it sure is nice to see things moving along! Make sure you enjoy it as things go!

Thank you Mike and Mike!  Even the tasks that aren't my favorites will be enjoyable because of the anticipation of the layout coming into action!

Mark, I've been remiss in commenting on your progress.  The room looks great and I like the backdrop idea vs painting the brick.

Dave,

No worries!  Thank you.  

Yesterday while taking breaks from winter leaf cleanup and getting the mower running, I laid out my GarGraves track on the floor in an approximation of how the plan flows.  It is not exact, because I just laid pieces overlapping where there will be track cuts, and I did not bend any of the flex to shape.  I used some 054 and 072 I had on hand to simulate the bent track.  I also only have 4 of the 9 switches, so only one is in place.  I also left the staging sidings out.  Here are a couple of photos of how the track will fill the space.  Not too bad.  I think I can live with this as long as I make the layout high enough to get my increasingly arthritic body under and into the access hatches.    Sorry the room is so small I couldn't get a complete view. It was too windy or I would have opened the sliding glass door.  I didn't want dried leaves and maple blossoms blowing in.  I think you get the idea.

Very nice Mark, now time to get some benchwork built!  

Thank you Jim!  You are right.  I think benchwork will be slow going until late fall; but one never knows.  

That looks good Mark, things are progressing nicely.

Thank you, Dave!

You could avoid the duckunders (save arthritic knees) and get broader curves if you them, by going around the walls instead of an island layout with acess hatches.    build the whole thing 30 inches wide (or however far you can reach) around the outside of the room and maybe a peninsula up the middle if you have enough room.    24 inch aisles are wide enough for one guy operation.    30 or more if multiple operators.

your getting there mark!   I am almost done with my garage to start my layout.  

Nice, Mark.  I like that plan.

It's been a while since I first saw your thread Mark.  You are patiently planning a nice layout.  I like the planning stage but it really is enjoyable to start building bench work.  Have fun.

prrjim posted:

You could avoid the duckunders (save arthritic knees) and get broader curves if you them, by going around the walls instead of an island layout with acess hatches.    build the whole thing 30 inches wide (or however far you can reach) around the outside of the room and maybe a peninsula up the middle if you have enough room.    24 inch aisles are wide enough for one guy operation.    30 or more if multiple operators.

Jim,

Your idea would have been my preference except for some problems with my room.  The entry from the rest of the basement is a door at one corner, which is good, but the adjacent wall has a sliding glass door with the opening at the far end only 2 feet from the far corner.  I needed to keep that open for traffic, so in effect my 11' 6" x 11' 4" room has about two feet chopped off the one side.  At the beginning of this topic we discussed an idea I had of having a loop go the whole way around with a lift-out bridge in front of the glass door, but I finally decided against it.  The duck-unders came as a concession I didn't want to make at first.  I talked about the problem with my wife, and she even suggested I take the glass door out and put a wall in it's place, which wouldn't be that hard to do, but the way the rest of the basement is constructed, I decided against it.

Nothing is etched in stone yet, so I won't rule out that once I get building benchwork I may change my mind on this.  Time will tell.  Thank you very much for your suggestion!!!

Chris D posted:

your getting there mark!   I am almost done with my garage to start my layout.  

Chris,

Thank you!  I am glad you are getting done with your garage.  We may find ourselves at similar points of construction somewhere down the line.  Someday you can come take a look at mine in person.

mjrodg3n88 posted:

Nice, Mark.  I like that plan.

Mike,

Thank you!  I'm glad to see your layout is coming along nicely, and someday you can come up to see mine in person as well.

Mark

 Nice work so far. I was looking at the track plan and looks good as laid out. I was thinking that you could actually connect everything to see how things would run. Then decide if you would have to modify. Easier said then done, but then you wouldn't have to modify the bench work. As for the suggestion of around the room option. This would be perfect timing to mock that one up then you could decide which way you want to go. The one thing you will have to do with that option is to build a either a lift away at the door or something similar to what paul2 is doing that flips up . Another advantage will be storage. You could build shelves into it and then the room might not look so cluttered. with shelving on the walls.. I think it was mike who asked about the celling central.  Something to think about, but from the looks of it you could possibly do the same thing in that room and then run a spur connecting both rooms. Another option with the around the wall plan. Might need to knock a hole in the wall, but you could run a spur into the other room and along the wall have a hidden yard with four or five sidings with trains ready to go. Then you could decide what you want to run before you enter the room to operate. The work on the room itself is looking good. The lighter blue actually make it look bigger. Question the window leads to the out side or into the garage?

I use a mechanic's stool to get under my layout. It's the only way I can do it and be able to get back out and stand up afterward. Harbor Freight has a couple of different ones and I use the shortest one they have. It's the rectangular one, the round one is a little higher. Unless they have gotten some new ones in the last 3-4 years. If you can get something like that and make your benchwork high enough so you can fit fairly comfortably while on the stool I think you will be able to get under there and work fairly well and certainly be able to get to the access hatches without much trouble.

I'm 5'-9" and my benchwork is 40" to the top. The cross pieces are about 3-1/2"-4" or so and that leaves me roughly 36" of clearance. That's a little low, I would go about 3"-4" higher if I had it to do over, but as long as I remember to duck a little for the cross braces it isn't too bad. If you haven't been under there for a while the first encounter with a cross brace usually provides incentive to duck from then on. 

Also, I was worried about the 40" height as my grandson was only about 6 or 7 when I got going on my layout. He could reach the items on the outer parts of the layout, but anything a little ways in on the layout was hard for him to get to. I got him a couple of step stools, also at Harbor Freight, and he used those when he wanted to get to something a little further in on the layout. He just moves them around where he wants them and has never complained. He's taller now and doesn't use the stools so much any more, only once in a while now.

Just some more things to consider or think about here.

suzukovich posted:

Mark

 Nice work so far. I was looking at the track plan and looks good as laid out. I was thinking that you could actually connect everything to see how things would run. Then decide if you would have to modify. Easier said then done, but then you wouldn't have to modify the bench work. As for the suggestion of around the room option. This would be perfect timing to mock that one up then you could decide which way you want to go. The one thing you will have to do with that option is to build a either a lift away at the door or something similar to what paul2 is doing that flips up . Another advantage will be storage. You could build shelves into it and then the room might not look so cluttered. with shelving on the walls.. I think it was mike who asked about the celling central.  Something to think about, but from the looks of it you could possibly do the same thing in that room and then run a spur connecting both rooms. Another option with the around the wall plan. Might need to knock a hole in the wall, but you could run a spur into the other room and along the wall have a hidden yard with four or five sidings with trains ready to go. Then you could decide what you want to run before you enter the room to operate. The work on the room itself is looking good. The lighter blue actually make it look bigger. Question the window leads to the out side or into the garage?

Doug,

Thank you for your observations and suggestions.  I started mocking up an idea from earlier on in this process, but with some suggestions since I opened this topic.  Yes, it would have a flip up shelf/bridge.  I want to do a little more before I post any photos of it. 

As to the hole in the wall to the Ceiling Central RR room, here is why I won't do that.  Eleven inches of concrete block and brick.  Then you can see the CCRR shelves above the clock in the other room.

This room is an addition my in-laws put on the house a few years before we bought it from Mum after Pop Pop passed.  The train room was intended to be the supporting structure for the sun room above it. LOL  My father-in-law loved that sun room, as his health kept him indoors a lot.  So yes, this was the exterior and the big window has the laundry on the other side.

Now, that said, the CCRR is right above the top of the door opening,  It would be possible to have a shelf 4" lower and it could go through the corner of the door opening, and I wouldn't hit my head.  I am 6' 0".  I'll ponder that some more over the summer I think.

Thank you very much, and I will post some ideas as I develop them.  It is just as good I won't have time to build benchwork until fall anyway.

rtr12 posted:

I use a mechanic's stool to get under my layout. It's the only way I can do it and be able to get back out and stand up afterward. Harbor Freight has a couple of different ones and I use the shortest one they have. It's the rectangular one, the round one is a little higher. Unless they have gotten some new ones in the last 3-4 years. If you can get something like that and make your benchwork high enough so you can fit fairly comfortably while on the stool I think you will be able to get under there and work fairly well and certainly be able to get to the access hatches without much trouble.

I'm 5'-9" and my benchwork is 40" to the top. The cross pieces are about 3-1/2"-4" or so and that leaves me roughly 36" of clearance. That's a little low, I would go about 3"-4" higher if I had it to do over, but as long as I remember to duck a little for the cross braces it isn't too bad. If you haven't been under there for a while the first encounter with a cross brace usually provides incentive to duck from then on. 

Also, I was worried about the 40" height as my grandson was only about 6 or 7 when I got going on my layout. He could reach the items on the outer parts of the layout, but anything a little ways in on the layout was hard for him to get to. I got him a couple of step stools, also at Harbor Freight, and he used those when he wanted to get to something a little further in on the layout. He just moves them around where he wants them and has never complained. He's taller now and doesn't use the stools so much any more, only once in a while now.

Just some more things to consider or think about here.

I have thought I would like benchwork high, not as high as the 50" I had on my last HO layout, but higher than 40"  We don't have any grandchildren yet, but I think I will find a good height for me and provide step stools if we have grandchildren or any other kids see it.  Thank you very much for your experience.

Mark Boyce posted:

suzukovich posted:

Mark

 Nice work so far. I was looking at the track plan and looks good as laid out. I was thinking that you could actually connect everything to see how things would run. Then decide if you would have to modify. Easier said then done, but then you wouldn't have to modify the bench work. As for the suggestion of around the room option. This would be perfect timing to mock that one up then you could decide which way you want to go. The one thing you will have to do with that option is to build a either a lift away at the door or something similar to what paul2 is doing that flips up . Another advantage will be storage. You could build shelves into it and then the room might not look so cluttered. with shelving on the walls.. I think it was mike who asked about the celling central.  Something to think about, but from the looks of it you could possibly do the same thing in that room and then run a spur connecting both rooms. Another option with the around the wall plan. Might need to knock a hole in the wall, but you could run a spur into the other room and along the wall have a hidden yard with four or five sidings with trains ready to go. Then you could decide what you want to run before you enter the room to operate. The work on the room itself is looking good. The lighter blue actually make it look bigger. Question the window leads to the out side or into the garage?

Doug,

Thank you for your observations and suggestions.  I started mocking up an idea from earlier on in this process, but with some suggestions since I opened this topic.  Yes, it would have a flip up shelf/bridge.  I want to do a little more before I post any photos of it. 

As to the hole in the wall to the Ceiling Central RR room, here is why I won't do that.  Eleven inches of concrete block and brick.  Then you can see the CCRR shelves above the clock in the other room.

This room is an addition my in-laws put on the house a few years before we bought it from Mum after Pop Pop passed.  The train room was intended to be the supporting structure for the sun room above it. LOL  My father-in-law loved that sun room, as his health kept him indoors a lot.  So yes, this was the exterior and the big window has the laundry on the other side.

Now, that said, the CCRR is right above the top of the door opening,  It would be possible to have a shelf 4" lower and it could go through the corner of the door opening, and I wouldn't hit my head.  I am 6' 0".  I'll ponder that some more over the summer I think.

Thank you very much, and I will post some ideas as I develop them.  It is just as good I won't have time to build benchwork until fall anyway.

Brick and mortar wall Definitely a challenge.  I don't think you would have to lower the entire Ceiling central to make the door way now looking at it. Just the sections leading to it with a down ward and upward grade to and from the door. In the train room Ceiling Central would be more like shelf central with it at the height to make the doorway. That would be easy to blend in with the layout. Hidden yard run through the window and then into the other room?  

It is good thinking.  I will look it over and do some measuring.

 Thank you for the ideas

So in the last week, I tried looked at this idea, and put some track on the floor for that idea, and measured for another idea, and finally think I will stick with the plan as shown 

I decided I don't want to just go around and around the room.  I don't want curves any tighter than 042, because I want to run my MTH Western Maryland Consolidation.  I don't want to bother with extending the Ceiling Central into staging tracks, because I don't want a quarter of the room taken up by a helix, and I had trouble building the shelves at that height anyway.  It's as painful as trying to run tracks on the floor.  

The only possible idea is to take a track off the curve by the big window at the bottom of the drawing and run it through the window over the washer, dryer and stationary tub.  Unfortunately the tracks would have to stop adjacent to the edge of the benchwork at the bottom of this drawing, because I need to keep another doorway open.  If I did put tracks there the track height would be 45" above the floor, which is workable.  I think I would want a Plexiglas barrier in front of the trains to protect against water splashes, which would not be common.  Still I don't know that it is worth it and have cars near the water source.

Thank you for all the comments and ideas!!

Looking great Mark. I have been following the progress and looking great. The layout design looks great.

Marki, sounds like you have your plan and it's a good one. Time to stop discussing the plan, draw a line in the sand and build it. 

Looks good Mark. I think you have deliberated and discussed on this forum long enough. Looks like a solid plan that should bring you lots of enjoyment to build and operate.

I was almost going to chime in when someone suggested blasting through the brick above the door to extend the CC but you quickly put that idea to bed. Cutting through 12+" of brick and block is no fun. There's probably a lintel above the door too.

Hope to see some benchwork up soon!

Bob

Thank you Harry, Pat, Bob, And Dave!!  I think all of you are correct!  I think it is a good plan for someone who wants to tun trains somewhat simulating a prototypical manner, in limited space and leave room for interesting scenery.  This was my thought a couple weeks ago, but I wanted to give reasonable suggestions some consideration.  Dave gave me a suggestion offline that may aid in having cars ready to swap out quickly when making up new trains, that I will give some thought.  

I am glad the discussion came up on the window to the laundry.  Since we bought the house, we have kept the window open to let some heat from the vent right above the washer into our daughter's art room.  I never thought about moisture getting in there, and daughter certainly would have raised the issue if it had affected her variety of artworks and materials.  My wife and I both thought I may want to take the window out altogether.  We have never used that baseboard heater on the far wall. I don't think I should have a problem with moisture especially if I have the dehumidifier running.  Does anyone have any thoughts on that.

Other than that, I am ready to get some wood and have been looking at miter saws at Lowes and Home Depot.  I recall a suggestion for a compound one.  Progress may be slow for now, but I should be able to make progress over the summer.

Thank you everyone!!

I don't think you'll have a moisture problem in the train room, but could have had some with a spur going into the laundry room, more heat than moisture. I don't know how that room is configured, but ours gets warm when the dryer is running. Probably not enough to do any damage unless you have an accident and get water on the spur. Even without that, I think it would have made doing laundry a little more of a hassle having to watch out for the spur, etc.

Mark Boyce posted:

Thank you Harry, Pat, Bob, And Dave!!  I think all of you are correct!  I think it is a good plan for someone who wants to tun trains somewhat simulating a prototypical manner, in limited space and leave room for interesting scenery.  This was my thought a couple weeks ago, but I wanted to give reasonable suggestions some consideration.  Dave gave me a suggestion offline that may aid in having cars ready to swap out quickly when making up new trains, that I will give some thought.  

I am glad the discussion came up on the window to the laundry.  Since we bought the house, we have kept the window open to let some heat from the vent right above the washer into our daughter's art room.  I never thought about moisture getting in there, and daughter certainly would have raised the issue if it had affected her variety of artworks and materials.  My wife and I both thought I may want to take the window out altogether.  We have never used that baseboard heater on the far wall. I don't think I should have a problem with moisture especially if I have the dehumidifier running.  Does anyone have any thoughts on that.

Other than that, I am ready to get some wood and have been looking at miter saws at Lowes and Home Depot.  I recall a suggestion for a compound one.  Progress may be slow for now, but I should be able to make progress over the summer.

Thank you everyone!!

Yes Mark- look for a compound saw. You will not be sorry.

Bob

Dave,

I think you are right about not having a moisture problem in the train room.  I agree, shelves over the laundry would be in the way.  And I do as much wash as my wife does.

Bob,

Thank you on the compound saw.  I was looking on the phone for the earlier remark, and it is a pain to find on a little screen.

I just want to thank everyone who has given suggestions, input, and just a positive note 'like'.  Since my first layout back in 1969-70, I never had anyone to discuss ideas with before!  It is so much better this go round with all of you with me here!  I appreciate everyone who has read this topic!  Thank you!

You don't need a compound saw. Why don't you just build it?

William,

Thank you for your reply.  I am with you on that; Just do it!    The main reason I haven't started on it is we have been faced with increasing responsibilities for caring for older relatives.  Dad had been taking care of Mom since she got out of an extended stay in the hospital in the winter.  This past week Dad was in the hospital briefly, and realized he isn't up to doing as much as he had been.  My mother-in-law lives down the road, and I have an aunt in assisted living, but I am her power of attorney, etc.  

On to the saw.  I thought maybe the saw would make it quicker, easier, and more accurate in making cuts.  Maybe I should just rent one for a day, just to see if that is really true.  I think with outdoor work too, it will be fall until I get at it.  I do have some more track lighting I want to install while I still have an open floor below.

So I see it has been a month since I replied.  Well due to obligations to my elderly parents, aunt, and mother-in-law, I haven't touched this in a month.  Today I got a chance to try to draw some kind of plan for L-girder benchwork.  I have used it before, and I think it would be best here, due to the curved perimeter of the layout.  I do not know how to do it differently, so I added a layer to the last SCARM drawing and put in the gray lines showing the long L-girders, the cross joists, and the almost square looking legs.  Remember, with L-girder, the joists do not have to be even.  There would be cross members joining the L-girder sections. I have not figured out how to put the L-girder layer under the other layers, but I'm sure it is easy, I just need to look it up but don't feel like it now.  It was a busy morning at church, and after this exercise, I'm going to take a nap.  I mainly want to post this photo to see if there is any discussion on the merits or how I could do it differently.  Actually, the L-girders and joists show up better on top for this discussion.

Thank you for looking.

Mark, it gets very complicated because of the way SCARM displays tracks and objects. However, for your purposes, check the property values for the L-Girder rails. You didn't attach the SCARM file, so I can't check myself, but I suspect the vertical position and height fields are not correct. The lowest track (blue) is "0" elevation and the decking is 1/2", so if you want to portray a 1x4 L-Girder rail and have it display beneath the bottom level, try changing the vertical position to "-4.0" and the height to "3.5" (or post the SCARM file and I'll take a look).

The 1st photo shows where I added two beams, both 3.5" tall. The one on the left has values of "0" and "3.5", the one on the right "-4.0" and "3.5". As you can see, the one on the right is properly displayed beneath the track whereas the one on the left is displayed above the track. The 2nd photo shows the 3D view. Once properties are changed for all the rails, your L-Girder should be displayed below the track. Let me know if that works.

Now, please note that the beam on the left is not beneath the Yellow track even though the elevation of that track is 8" and the beam is only 3.5" tall. I first noticed this when I tried to add an object below the tracks in a design I was working on and I had the tracks set to their actual height of 40". I could add a shelf at the 8" point and get it to display correctly in 3D, but they always covered the tracks in 2D. My simple understanding is that tracks are displayed as a singe "object" without regard to elevation of individual tracks and are displayed on top at elevation "0". Therefore any object with either property value set to something greater than 0 will always cover the tracks regardless of track elevation. As you might have figured out, a vertical position less than 0 will display beneath the track and that's why the "-4.0" fixes the display.

I got my beauty nap too Mark...during the first half of the radio broadcast of the race.  L girder is absolutely the best way to go!  The most flexibility by far--easier to revise, etc.  I'm very happy and excited for you.  NOT being negative, my concern for you is that you will get bored with the looping--as my original version had turntables at both "ends" which made an operator: stop, uncouple, get on the turntable, take the caboose off, and place it on the other end of the train.  That would keep a single person busy for hours...

The looping is nice in that you can control one train and let another run freely to challenge you as you go back and forth.  With this set-up, you will have to be disciplined enough to NOT just let this become a loop of track missing its tree.

On smaller ,shorter, layouts, it is imperative to give an operator something to do that provides purpose and participation because it will only take a minute or two to complete the entire main run.  With your spurs at opposite ends, you can use those to switch out trains...in other words when you run a train upward--park it in a spur and return with another train.  Switch trains every time you go either from bottom to top or vice versa...

With sharp curves in yours and the real area--use restricted speed to your advantage.  Regardless, this is a really neat layout--and the theme is good.  Be sure to take pictures every time you do something!  I have 1000s of ours and it is amazing to look back to the beginning.  One day you may discover that the realistic operation that turntables would have provided on each end would have been the way to go...everyone is different in their opinions and preferences... 

Even if you do...the loops on the ends would leave an area for turntables should you ever feel you want a change.

Dave,

I think I got it on how to show the benchwork underneath.  I wasn't even thinking of elevations.  I was just looking to bring the track on top.  That thinking came from limited experience with an ancient version of DesignCAD and Visio.  I am not concerned with the benchwork showing on a 3D view so your instructions will get the results I'm looking for.

John,

Thank you for the comments.  If I had a larger room, I would make my layout in a fashion more like yours and run trains one way then break them up and run other consists.  Considering my short run, I want to be able to do an out and back for a longer run, simulating the Blackwater canyon then back down the mountain again for a longer run.  Yes, passing over the same scenery in the opposite direction takes some imagination, but the looping takes some imagination as the Blackwater doesn't do that in real life either.  Believe me, I do not run my trains now for as long as I would like because I do get bored with the short ovals.  As you said, the real estate will be there if I get tired of this and want to put a turntable in the future.  The L-girder will give me ample room to put shelves or roll out drawers of some sort in for all my cars I want to switch out by hand while running trains.

Thank you both for your comments.

Oh, one more thing John touched on.  During the last few months, I have been converting some of my roster from longer to shorter cars and locomotives.  I sold and traded two large steam locomotives and picked up a 0-6-0, SW-9, and RS-1.  On the passenger car side I got rid of two large sets of 18" passenger cars and bought a 3-car set of baby Madison cars that should look good on the mountain curves.

I've just got around to taking a look through your thread, Mark.  Very good.

I'll watch with interest from now on. 

Max,

Thank you very much!  I'm glad you took a look.  Things are a little slow now with spring chores and care for elderly parents.  I'll be posting when I can.

Today in response to one of my posts elsewhere, John Coy asked me how the Blackwater Canyon Line is coming along.  I thought I should post my reply to John here for all of you who have been so good to reply and follow my topic. 

Thank you for asking. The new layout is temporarily on hold. My 86-year old parents had a rough winter and spring. Both have had extensive hospital stays; in fact I just got off the phone, and Dad will be discharged Monday and I will be taking him to a personal care home while my sister brings Mom from her house. It has been trying on us all, but we have seen God work out some amazing things. Hopefully, things will start to settle down in July and we can just visit them, though we will have to watch the house and mow the grass until we decide what to do there.   As to the new layout, I am still picking up material when I can.  I also have my 91 year old aunt, who I serve as power of attorney, in another facility; and my mother-in-law who now lives across the road from us. No one helps us with those two. We have been blessed, but are usually very tired.  

(After receiving another Ross turnout from a Forum member, I will only need 4 more turnouts and that should complete the track purchases.  I have the lumber I can get from my mother-in-law's house, and I can go through Dad's stash of nice lumber since he won't be using any of it.  That is sad for me to say, but who would have thought he could have kept up with everything to past his 86th birthday) 

Sorry to hear about all the issues you and your family are facing, Mark. Building a model railroad is the last thing you need to worry about, so take care of those you love, the railroad will always be there.

Thank you, Dave!!  Yes, the railroad will be here waiting.

Mark, you and your family are in our prayers. 

George

G3750 posted:

Mark, you and your family are in our prayers. 

George

George,

Thank you so much!!

Thanks for taking the time to let us all know what you have been dealing with. I know this is a very emotional time for you. As I have said several times, in the forum, we are a brother/sisterhood in this hobby. Just pop your head in when you can and we will give you your train fix for the day. In the meantime, take care of mom and dad as I know they have done for you. Keep your head up and know we are here for you.

Dave

Mark I agree with everything that has been said! Family comes first, as the old saying goes they took care of us when we were young and now it's our turn to return the favor! Our thoughts and prayers are with you and your family!

Dave and Mike,

You are both so right!  Mum has been in decline for a few years, needing a cane, walker, or wheelchair depending on the circumstances.  Also her short-term memory is now not very good.  Dad still insisted on being the caregiver after Mum was out of the hospital in January, but it took a major toll on him and became evident he wasn't up to it.  He was the last of us to figure it out.  Now he has turned all responsibility over to us "kids", and I told him yesterday that it was our turn to take care of him and Mum, just as they did for us.  I say the same thing about our aunt, who was the one who lived closest and was most involved with us growing up!  

I have looked up to Dad, a godly man, as an example for what kind of man to become.  The last few years I have looked to him as an example of how to make the most of the aging process.  Now I am witnessing his example of how to live as an elderly person.  He is to be commended, as he used other men as an example for this since my grandfather passed on at age 56.

Everyone on OGR Forum,

I do use this Forum as a therapeutic agent.  All of you give me that "train fix" as Dave put it, when I don't have time to run trains or work on a layout or other project!  I thank all of you very much for your prayers, thoughts, and comradery!  I hope to meet more of you face to face as the years go by!  Thank you!!

Mark, many of us have walked in your shoes, and we are here for you. 

It's very difficult to watch the decline of our parents.  Take comfort in their love, which is always there for us "kids", and transcends all obstacles (even death), and in the fact that you are truly honoring your mother and father as the Commandment says.

May God hold you and your family in the palm of His hand.

George

Mark sorry to here about the family issues. Like all of use here at one time or another life issues get in the way and take priorities over other things were trying to accomplish.  Forum as a train fix now that's funny. Sometime reading the issues that have come up would seem more of a discouragement. But that's OK too sometimes reading about others issue can make yours seem trivial by comparison.  So I know in the end things will work out  for you and eventually the layout will get built. In the meantime you still have the other one up and running so you can run trains, come here and do a mind dump, after all everybody needs some sort of escape from reality otherwise we would all go crazy.

George and Doug, thank you for the very kind words!  I appreciate it very much!!

I had a very nice diversion from life.  I have been planning to model the Big Run Culvert and the Tubs Run Viaduct on the Blackwater grade, with some areas from Thomas and Davis at the top, and some of Hendricks at the bottom.  There is a river crossing at Hendricks which I had in the back of my mind to model.  There is a ho hum girder bridge there.  When Menards released their through truss bridge this week, I thought that would be nice, but if I stay to the prototype, I can't use one.  When I saw Cabinet Bob's photos of one on his topic, it suddenly dawned on me that I thought I had seen a through truss bridge at Parsons, just a bit upstream towards Elkins.  Yes, I was right.

Hmmm...Looks a lot like the Menards release.  Here is one of Bob's photos.

Yes, it will do nicely!!  I will have items from Hendricks/Parsons at the bottom end of the layout.  Sometime, I will work the scenic items up on a plan to show their general location better.  For right now, it is fun to think about and visualize when I walk into the mostly empty room!!

Mark- All of the life stuff that gets in our way is out there for a reason. You and the family will get through this and be better for it.
This gives you more time to plan everything so you don't make all the dumb mistakes we do because we are so eager to get trains running that we rush through the building.

Bob

Well here is something related to the layout planning.  As those who have read, I was looking for one or two appropriate engines for the fairly sharp curves.  I bought this ProtoSound Western Maryland BL-2 and non-powered BL-2 from a Forum member a week ago.  The powered one runs very smoothly, but the sound isn't too great.  I bought them with the plan to upgrade, since I have a couple PS-3 upgrade kits.

Since I'm not starting to build the layout until fall, I thought I could setup to start the a PS3 upgrade.  I recalled I loaned my static mat and wrist bands to one of my sons-in-law, who told me today it is at his dad's house.  He forgot about it.  Well, this is as far as it goes on the project until I get the static mat.  

You are right to wait, Mark.  One little zap, and game over! 

George

Best of luck, Mark. You are in my thoughts. 

Thank you, Pat!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Here are photos of the room.  Yes the pink wall will be the first thing to go.  

Mark, your requirements for your layout are exactly the same as mine, ie; small town, mountains, coal hauling, logging, some operating accessories etc. I was even able to squeeze in a small yard and engine facility! If I can be of any assistance with ideas please don't hesitate to ask. Have fun!

Good smoke! 

Howard,

Thank you!  I have seen so many photos of your layout!  How much space does your layout take?

Mark Boyce posted:

Howard,

Thank you!  I have seen so many photos of your layout!  How much space does your layout take?

It's basically a 15'x20' L shaped shelf layout, but only 5' wide or less in most places. It extends through a wall into my laundry room, around my furnace, about 1 scale mile to give it the effect of going somewhere far or coming from somewhere. The 1 scale mile mainline was done so that I can easily compute scale miles per hour.

Howard,

The scale mile is great!  Your layout always looks good!  As We discussed earlier on this topic, our laundry room is adjacent to the open window in the brick wall of my train room.  I will attach another photo.

There is a door just to the right of the stationary tub, and the furnace is to the left of the cabinets.  That is a portable heater on the shelf I put on the window sill.  I put it there to blow heat into the train room, because our daughter had the that room jammed with art tables, projects and materials.  I plan to take the heater down and put it in the train room when needed.  My wife is happy with the shelf, so I could run some sidings in over the stationary tub and just under the cabinets.  Once we get to the water heater and furnace, there is another problem, because there is a narrow passage past the furnace to the other door.  I couldn't do a loop, but I could put some sidings in.  The window sill would dictate the lowest track in the train room, which would be about 46 inches.  That makes the highest track 54 inches high, which is about the height I had my last HO layout at.  That is a little higher than I was thinking this time, but not unrealistic for me.  

Thank you for getting me thinking on this again!!

Mark Boyce posted:

Howard,

The scale mile is great!  Your layout always looks good!  As We discussed earlier on this topic, our laundry room is adjacent to the open window in the brick wall of my train room.  I will attach another photo.

There is a door just to the right of the stationary tub, and the furnace is to the left of the cabinets.  That is a portable heater on the shelf I put on the window sill.  I put it there to blow heat into the train room, because our daughter had the that room jammed with art tables, projects and materials.  I plan to take the heater down and put it in the train room when needed.  My wife is happy with the shelf, so I could run some sidings in over the stationary tub and just under the cabinets.  Once we get to the water heater and furnace, there is another problem, because there is a narrow passage past the furnace to the other door.  I couldn't do a loop, but I could put some sidings in.  The window sill would dictate the lowest track in the train room, which would be about 46 inches.  That makes the highest track 54 inches high, which is about the height I had my last HO layout at.  That is a little higher than I was thinking this time, but not unrealistic for me.  

Thank you for getting me thinking on this again!!

In my opinion, one can never have enough hidden sidings

I think you are right about that.  I was reluctant to go into the laundry room because of moisture concerns, but enough good folks commented here they haven't had an issue.  That's good enough for me.  My wife is in favor, so I just have to get back to planning!  

Mark Boyce posted:

I think you are right about that.  I was reluctant to go into the laundry room because of moisture concerns, but enough good folks commented here they haven't had an issue.  That's good enough for me.  My wife is in favor, so I just have to get back to planning!  

no moisture concern for me. As a side note, my layout is in my basement and I keep a fan circulating the air at all times.

Mark Boyce posted:

I think you are right about that.  I was reluctant to go into the laundry room because of moisture concerns, but enough good folks commented here they haven't had an issue.  That's good enough for me.  My wife is in favor, so I just have to get back to planning!  

Mark, before you go too far with planning, here's a little something for you. I didn't take time to check where there access to the laundry room is, but since the elevation is higher on one end, I used SCARM's "flip" tool to flip all the track vertically. For some reason it wouldn't flip the RH switches even though it flipped the LH switches just fine, so I had to manually replace those.

Anyway, depending on where the window to the laundry room is, you might not have to do too much planning. And since all the yellow track is at the higher elevation, the yard can be flipped if the windows in where the thin rectangle is.

Just food for thought to get you started.

Dave,

I see.  This version has the highest area near the window in question.  Yes, that could be done.  You are right, the skinny rectangle is the window.  As this stands, the yard lead goes through the block and brick wall over the tub.  I was thinking of coming off the left side of the curve through the window and the tracks would end up over the tub.  

Well tomorrow is another day.  Thank you for the input!!!

You got it Mark, should be easy enough to rework the yard from the left. What is the height of the window opening?

Mark, I changed the earlier rendition to the other side and replaced the SCARM file.

DoubleDAZ posted:

You got it Mark, should be easy enough to rework the yard from the left. What is the height of the window opening?

Dave,

Yes, the rework would be the practical one.  The window sill is 45 inches above the floor. So allowing for roadbed, the track height would be 46 inches.  I don't think it would be necessary to have bench framing through the window, as long as it is solid in each room.  The section passing through the window would be like a bridge so to speak connecting two separate 'tables'

If this was the high side of the layout, then the other town would be 38 inches above the floor.  If we flipped back to the original design, and this was the low side, then the town at the other end would be 54 inches above the floor.  The tiny window at that side of the room is 52 inches above the floor.  While I like my benchwork fairly higher than most folks I see posting, I don't think I want track 54 inches high.  My reach would be hampered, unless I stand on a stool or platform.  Since I'm not getting any younger, that may not be the best idea.  38 inches does allow for a better reach, and is still fairly high to roll under on a seat, if I get to not feel like stooping under.  Sitting on this folding chair and my head dropped down, I can duck to about 40 inches.  A seat 6 to 8 inches lower would work fine. 

All that said, if I am to build the staging track through the window, flipping the layout heights as you have shown would probably be best.  Thank you for your consideration on this, and I know you wouldn't fiddle with these if you didn't like doing it.  I still appreciate it very much!!  

Writing about the possibilities of running tracks through the window between the train and laundry rooms, got me thinking of pulling the sliding window and storm window out.  I hadn't done it before, because our daughter filled the train room with art stuff before I had a chance.  I never entered that room after, except when she invited, and then just stood near the door, because I was afraid of bumping something.  That is also why I built the shelf in the laundry room to hold the space heater; no room in the old art room.

Well here it is wide open except for the two brackets for the shelf that I anchored into the block wall.  The first photo shows the space over the appliances and tub.  6' 8" from the left hand end of the window to the wall on the right of the tub.  There is a soil pipe in the corner, then hot and cold water and electric conduit with a ground fault outlet to the right of the window.

This one shows the other side from the wall to the right end of the door.  I chopped the left side a bit, but the corner is just about at the right hand edge of the photo.  My Masonite backdrops cover about 2 inches of the bottom of the window as they are leaning against the brick wall.

This one shows better what is beyond the laundry area and why I can't very well run any tracks out into the room, much less a loop.

Have a happy Independence Day everyone who reads this!  Please remember all those who have fought for our freedom these nearly 250 years, and those protecting our freedoms today!!

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

I think you are right about that.  I was reluctant to go into the laundry room because of moisture concerns, but enough good folks commented here they haven't had an issue.  That's good enough for me.  My wife is in favor, so I just have to get back to planning!  

Mark, before you go too far with planning, here's a little something for you. I didn't take time to check where there access to the laundry room is, but since the elevation is higher on one end, I used SCARM's "flip" tool to flip all the track vertically. For some reason it wouldn't flip the RH switches even though it flipped the LH switches just fine, so I had to manually replace those.

Anyway, depending on where the window to the laundry room is, you might not have to do too much planning. And since all the yellow track is at the higher elevation, the yard can be flipped if the windows in where the thin rectangle is.

Just food for thought to get you started.

 

I got to looking at the obstacles in the laundry room area.  I realized the room is offset to the left of the train room.  Measuring shows that there is 33 inches from the left side of the window to the corner and 34 inches from the right side of the corner.  The room looks more like this.

I redrew the staging yard in from the other side, because the first way, the shelf restricts opening the top loading washer.  This way the tracks are over the front loading washer.  One note, the track closest to the wall is much too close in reality.  I'm still not sure I even want to do this, or just go with the original plan before it was flipped.

Also, I could not figure out how I captured before, so I did a screen shot.  The SCARM file is attached, but I have to click show in the bottom right of the post to see it myself.

I see what you're saying, Mark. Even if you don't add the yard now, but think you might in the future, you need to decide on orientation before you start building. Also, be mindful of how many cars some of those yard tracks can hold.

Dave,

I agree that planning for it now is key, if I am ever going to do it.  I know I will be working in the train room only for a while, so I would never get to that yard until after I retire, which could be the end of next year, or later.  Yes, with the 042 switches the shortest track is mighty short.  I could go the whole way to 027 switches if I was to use switcher engines only, like my 0-4-0 or my SW-9.  That would make the tracks a little longer.  

One thing too is that the height of the window is way too low for the yard table.  The 46 inches window sill is barely high enough to clear the control panel of the washer and dryer.  My wife and I each do about half the wash.   Whoever sees it needs done, does it.  However, if I make it too awkward to get to the controls, I'll be doing all the wash myself and being mad at myself for having to be a contortionist to do it.  The the track height at the upper level would have to be at least 50 inches.  I have had layouts that high before, but didn't want to go that high this time.  Always compromises!!  

I'll fiddle around with this some more; I don't feel very good today, not wanting to do some work outside I wanted to.

Thank you for your observations!

Mark:

IF you do actually use the laundry room, I have a much better idea for you than a switch ladder which eats up space quickly!

Build a "cassette" system.  I would make the cassettes about four to six feet long.  These cassettes are single 2' by 4s' that have one strip of straight track down the center.  The length would be determined by the reach spread of your arms and your confidence/comfort level in picking it up loaded with train cars.  You wouldn't be moving it far because the idea would to build one single lane of "fiddle yard" that connects to the rest of you track.  The shelf this lane would be sitting on would be about two feet wide.  You could place four other cassettes on that same shelf; each having the capability of being placed into the single lane of "fiddle yard" that connects to the rest of you track.  When you want to change consists, you could simple arrange the cassettes into whatever order you need.  This will save you a lot of money from buying the additional switches for a yard ladder which end-up eating away at your space quickly!

Lastly, if you want to go the switch route---bite the bullet and buy a manual Ross 4-way turnout!  I have 2.  These awesome space savers spread out from one to four tracks in the space of 2 feet!  You can't beat that.    

John,

You know, we talked about the cassettes way back in the winter.  Yes, I think that could work.  I get a one track mind sometimes, so I am glad others are here to remind me or to bring up new ideas.  Yes, I think a yard in the laundry would be awkward for trains and laundry.  I agree, any savings of money helps.  

I have seen the 4-way turnout, and that is a good idea too.

John, how would he fit a 4-way in his example? He has to come through the window and the switch needs to be away from the wall. From what I see, that would put the switch about where the turnout track is on the 2nd switch below the window. That doesn't leave much room for yard tracks.