Blackwater Canyon Line - September 8, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

Brian, Bob Helm in HO!  Superb, isn't it!!  Thank you for posting the link!  I would never have the space in HO to do what he has done.

The culvert at the beginning is over Tub Run.  I plan to do that scene on the curve starting up hill out of Parsons.  At the top, he is building the mining town of Douglas which I will exclude.  It is just downhill from Thomas.  His mid train and end of train H9 helpers are great!  The WM would figure one engine for every 10 loaded 55-ton hoppers!  Wow! The train pulled by the RS3s isn't shabby either.  I love the sound of ALCos.  I have seen some photographs of his layout, and know it is a work in progress.  I do not know if he is going to leave the hillsides treeless so you can see the trains or if he plans to plant more trees as the prototype.  Thank you again!!

Mark, I did some work on the version with the expanded Elkins and was able to eliminate all the flex, at the expense of cutting sectional tracks. I also reduced the run between Elkins/Parsons to 0" elevation with the grade up to Thomas now at 2.7%. As you can see, I left the passing siding switches off to the side because SCARM won't let me add them to the grade. However, they fit right in where the straight pieces are, so everything lines up and it should be no problem to swap them in during the build. The same changes can be made to the version with the hidden Elkins, but now that you moved the loops, do you really want to hide all of Elkins? To be fair, even with the outer loop being showing, I'm not quite sure how you plan to landscape to make things look like there's a town there.  Next I'll work on removing the upper switches to extend the loop down the grade.

And here's the original Elkins.

Dave, I finally made drawings of what I intend for scenery at Thomas.  You can see why I hadn't before, since it took a few attempts to get them to look this good (relatively speaking)  But first, the photographs of the real town.  The town is built on a hillside with the railroad at the bottom of the hill.  Front Street has no buildings between it and the railroad.  The street and buildings look much the same today with a variety of shops.  The next street up the hill is high enough that on side faces the backside 2nd or 3rd floors of the buildings on Front Street.  Since there are only buildings facing one side of each street, I think I can get a couple of streets and rows of buildings in my small space.

This is assuming the Upper level (Thomas) 8" above the 0" level (Elkins turnback).  I'm guessing Front street will be at about 13" high to give 5" of clearance above the track.  I'm showing a bridge at the lower left  in the bottom photograph, but really I hope to just use a building as view block.  The right end of Front Street doesn't continue on, you have to turn up the hill.  Then I showed the second street at 17" with buildings on that level.  So I will be covering half of the upper level turn back loop with buildings. I hope this makes sense.

So the Elkins loop will be under all of that.  My initial thought was to hide it, or place it right underneath and sides can be open in the fascia so I can keep track.  Your idea of projecting it out beyond so the top of the train can be visible for part of the loop is something I hadn't considered, but it would make it easier re-railing derailments for one.  It is a good idea.  I do not know if it would have a negative effect on my Thomas town scene.  Maybe I could do it, and make a removable Black Fork over top of it as you can see in the second photograph.  I wonder if that's been done before.

Both plans are intriguing.  I would lose a little aisle space in the second, but not much.  I do think the elongated loop to passing siding is an idea to consider.  Thank you again.

Mark, that is going to be an wonderful looking section on your layout! I have been watching as you been planning and all the changes that have been made. I have remained silent as not to clutter the thought process, But I think Dave is right about making the train visible would give it that extra POW factor! 

Either way I think its a strong plan and will make a great layout either way!

Best of Luck!

Mike, feel free to make a comment at any time!  Yes, the visibility of a train on the lower loop and one on the upper loop certainly would be a great looking scene!  I attest my thinking of what did the prototype look like stems back from too many years of reading HO and N publications where fidelity to the prototype has increased in popularity over the years.  Sure, free lanced layouts still abound, but I had tried to be closer to the prototype and found it confining.

It has been 7 years since I went 3-rail, and my layout should reflect what that has to offer.  Both tracks in view for part of the curves is just that.

 Looking at it again, I am liking the loop extending into the passing siding.  That too offers more possibilities.  I am coordinated enough to run two short, slow trains on the same track, so this would help.  I’m thinking of driving to York last April, and going down the Allegheny Mountain on US 22, with snow on the ground and no leaves out yet seeing two Norfolk Southern trains one right after the other slogging it up to Cresson from the Horseshoe Curve!  Pretty impressive!

I think that whatever you do is going to be great! I to know that in prototype there are restrictions on what you can do on a layout, but remember this is your world and its spose to be fun!

We see quite a few trains one after the other as we drive along I-40 and I-10, mostly through New Mexico where there aren't a lot of places trains need to stop. There are also several places where there are dual mains leading to a single main with passing sidings along the single. The only thing not prototypical is the loop, but that just replaces a more prototypical terminal yard where new consists would be assembled and that is simply due to space limitations.

I was going to add some buildings to Thomas (and still will), but got sidetracked trying to deal with your hesitancy about the single switch further down the grade. I like to spend your money , so I added a crossover up where the other passing siding switch was and then I saw the other possibilities this gives you more operational variety. With the crossover added, trains can come and go in both directions on either track making Thomas look more like a through town.

I also noticed the size of the yard could be increased, so I moved the switches around a bit to do that. I also resized the cassette to accommodate a pair of 37" tracks, though I'm not sure how large your storage system will be. I would think it would be long enough for each track to hold at least 2, maybe 3, of your longest cars and that should hold your largest steamer/tender. I even added a 3D version of my idea for the cassette with sides that would be as tall as your lowest car and hooks for elastic bands that would then go over the cars to hold them in place while moving. There would also be bands on the ends for safety. I can envision a more elaborate system where the cassette would be dropped in place and everything but the base/tracks/cars released with simple turns of 1 or 2 knobs. I know you're a long way from building this, but I like to offer ideas when I think of them.

Note: The photo shows the switches in place, but the file has them off to the side. It also shows the cassette, but the file has that on a separate layer so it can be turned off.

Mark, isn't that Mianne Kit wonderful? I really enjoyed setting mine up. I special ordered a 48" height and am so glad that I did. Keeps the cats and rug rats at bay.

-- Dr Joe

Mike, You are so right.  It is my layout and whatever suits me best and is most fun is the correct way to do it.

Dave, The crossover is a good idea, and you are right there would be a lot of action both directions in Thomas.  I am thinking I like the lower Elkins loop in view more for the added effect of trains, just as the crossover adds possibilities.  I am not one who enjoys a lot of switching, but like to watch trains.  So I can envision without these ideas, it could get a bit boring.  Lets go with the crossover and the Elkins tracks in view for part of the loop as practical.  Trains going in and out of view is interesting too.  I like your rendering of the cassette.  The elastic bands is a good idea to make things stable.  I can be very clumsy anymore.

Dr. Joe, I was sad I didn't have more Mianne benchwork to put together, it went so fast.  But, I need to clean out some things here in this room before progressing anyway.  The last couple days I spent time taking the buildings etc off the Christmas layout in one daughter's abandoned bedroom.  Some of what is in the new train room will go up there for my wife's use.  I just can't lift very much until I see the back doctor Wednesday, so I haven't been in a hurry.  Dr. Mike G. told me to not overdo it so I am trying to be compliant!  

There isn't much available when it comes to buildings, etc., so I put together what little I could for both Thomas and Parsons. 

I'll work on the version with part of Elkins visible.

Dave, That is an enhancement just with the buildings Mixey has available.  They give a sense of size and how many buildings can fit in a small area; that is all I think we are really after.  I bought a couple neat buildings that I later sold once I started on the original layout in the little room.  That is one thing I overestimate since I still think in HO sizes.  It is getting to look like a railroad fur sure!!  A rather sophisticated layout at that.  I need to get the rest of that Christmas stuff put away so I can get started!  

I fiddled with Elkins, but I'm not sure if you prefer to encroach on the bookcase side or the main open area side, so I did both.

The first version encroaches on the bookcase side while the second encroaches on the open side and shrinks Thomas a bit to allow for a faux storefront along the visible part of Elkins. Even without shrinking Thomas the advantage to the second approach is Elkins will be more visible from the open area vs the bookcase.

Oh my Goodness, Dave!!!  You just opened up a whole new world!!  I never thought of it, but I could actually replicate the wonderful Elkins Depot even if it is just a flat!!  I have 60' MTH models of 4 of those very cars too!!!  The second choice!  I don't even have to think about it!!!  Thank you!!!!

As always, my pleasure, Mark. Moving Thomas/Elkins gives access all around and opened up the possibilities. I’m going to put the switches back in place and post one final version. Then I’ll stop unless you need me to check/try something. Like if you give me the footprint measurements of the buildings, I can create rectangles to see what will fit where before you settle on this version of Thomas.

Dave, your the man! Just always helping people out! You have done a great job on Marks Layout plan, just like you did with mine! I wish I could grasp it faster, just not me. I can build almost anything I see but computer and electrical stuff kill me! LOL

Dave, that sounds like a good plan!  I have some buildings, most of which I want to put in Parsons.  It is a very different looking town; more wide open and nearly in a floodplain of the confluence of Black Fork and Shavers Fork.  I’ll check on Thomas buildings.  Thank you again!

I set up some OSB on top of the Mianne benchwork at about the right measurements as in the latest plan.  I factored in 6" from the edge of the tracks to the edge of the table to accommodate a bit of scenery and catch train derailments.   My sails were deflated, or better yet my boiler ran out of steam.  If I build with the extended lower level for a little bit of buildings or even not extended lower level with 054 curves, I won't be able to move the upright piano out of the room when the time comes.  The track on Homasote in these two photographs is the 042 track from the layout I started in the little room.

I tried to line up the edge of the wall, but the photograph doesn't show it right.  There is less room between the track edge and the doorway than the photograph really shows.   Annie is in the shadow at the bottom of the photograph shaking her head in disapproval.  

So I went back to the drawing board again.  I made the two loops 042, like they were originally when I thought I could get by with the benchwork up against the built in shelves.  I actually think I got layers right this go round.  So I came up with this.  I added the SCARM file too.

My H9 Consolidation and Shay both run fine on the 042 curve, as do my 60' passenger cars.  So, I really don't need 054 curves.  I took down the 054 loop before taking the photographs.  It was even more obvious that it took too much room. 

Someone may say, "Move the piano out now."  Well, I can't until later this year when we learn whether our older daughter and her husband can really afford to buy my parents' house and acreage.  That would be when they have room to take it.  It is probably just as well.  This forces me to keep that space open for traffic.  If I use part of the walkway for layout, surely I will need to move something through at some time or other, even if it is my wheelchair so I can still operate the layout someday!  

On a slightly different note, I mentioned on another topic I received a very slight windfall which my wife told me to use for the layout.  So I took it to the bank this morning, and now have a few dollars to use for this first stage of the layout development. 

Mark money always helps!  I got a few dollars back from Uncle Sam.   So I spent a little on trains!!!   The rest will stay in the bank......  Until there is something else I need.   Like some turnouts!! LOL

Jim

Jim, Usually what I need is new brakes, or tires, or fuel pump, or shocks, or washing machine, or.....

Or pay Uncle Sam.  

Mark- Good news- $$$$$$-  bad news- not enough space . At least you saw it now and not later....unlike the guy who built a boat in his basement and couldn't fit it out the door. No chance the piano can go out the back door through the old train room? I guess you thought of that already.

Bob

Bob, Thank you.  You are right I already thought of it 

At least, you are making progress.  That's a good thing.

Here is a photograph held up high that shows how I laid out the 042 track over the full sized printout from a portion of the plan.  I will make the best of it.  The curve diameter will be the same as the layout I started building in the little room.  Along the edges, it shows how much more room the 054 would take.   That just takes up too much from the aisles.

That’s a good illustration of how much space these loops really take up. I read a lot of guys using 072+ as a minimum.  It’s surprising how much space that really is. Keep up the good work and keep the updates coming!

Yes for sure.  Thank you, JD

I reported in my progress a few times on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic.  Here is a summary.  I glued down and sanded cork roadbed.  Before laying track I spray painted the cork with Rustoleum American Accents Stone Gray Stone spray paint.  I saw another Forum member write about this, so it is not my idea.  I like to put in most of my scenery before ballasting.  I think it is very passable in the meantime for ballasted track.  Who knows, maybe I will never actually ballast the track.  I don't like ballasting.

Here is what the second section i did looks like.  I must caution you that little hard particles will float around and get on everything within a couple feet.  They can be scraped off without damage, but if my wife had noticed them on a couple items in the room, she wouldn't have been happy.

Thinking of a recent discussion on track screws on the  "What did you do on your layout today" topic, I decided I was going t get #4 flathead screws and countersink.  I stopped at C. T. McCormick Hardware a couple weeks ago to pick up the Ross curved switch I needed, and Jeff showed me these #4 screws he stocks especially for what I wanted to do.  They are already black.  Hooray!  No daubing on paint and risking filling the x slot in the head.

So the next two photographs show how it looks right now.  I have gaps and power drops installed where I think they will be appropriate.  I then ran some temporary wire across the floor from the other room where the Z4000 and TIU now reside.  I clipped onto each drop to check that an engine could run okay.  I didn't do anymore wiring because I plan to locate the TIU on the yet to be built benchwork in the middle of the layout.  That will be the next phase of benchwork.

Here is how the flathead screws look.

Monday, I placed an order for the second load of Mianne Benchwork that will take care of most of the length of the layout along the brick wall.

Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, looks like you have a great start! I like the paint idea! What did you do to clean the top of the rails? I might have to give that a try!

Very nice touch, Mark. The gray gives it a bit of a Fastrack look Huh. That makes me wonder what a coat of that gray texture paint would look like on the decking under Fastrack. That might look real good in my yard/town switching area. All I'd have to do is.....lift all the trackwork......and then fill and sand the benchwork....and then......Hmmmm.

Lew

Great work, Mark - the flat-head screws look like a good match for the track and should be almost invisible when it's done.

Mark Boyce posted:

I reported in my progress a few times on the "What did you do on your layout today" topic.  Here is a summary.  I glued down and sanded cork roadbed.  Before laying track I spray painted the cork with Rustoleum American Accents Stone Gray Stone spray paint.  I saw another Forum member write about this, so it is not my idea.  I like to put in most of my scenery before ballasting.  I think it is very passable in the meantime for ballasted track.  Who knows, maybe I will never actually ballast the track.  I don't like ballasting.

Here is what the second section i did looks like.  I must caution you that little hard particles will float around and get on everything within a couple feet.  They can be scraped off without damage, but if my wife had noticed them on a couple items in the room, she wouldn't have been happy.

Thinking of a recent discussion on track screws on the  "What did you do on your layout today" topic, I decided I was going t get #4 flathead screws and countersink.  I stopped at C. T. McCormick Hardware a couple weeks ago to pick up the Ross curved switch I needed, and Jeff showed me these #4 screws he stocks especially for what I wanted to do.  They are already black.  Hooray!  No daubing on paint and risking filling the x slot in the head.

So the next two photographs show how it looks right now.  I have gaps and power drops installed where I think they will be appropriate.  I then ran some temporary wire across the floor from the other room where the Z4000 and TIU now reside.  I clipped onto each drop to check that an engine could run okay.  I didn't do anymore wiring because I plan to locate the TIU on the yet to be built benchwork in the middle of the layout.  That will be the next phase of benchwork.

Here is how the flathead screws look.

 

Monday, I placed an order for the second load of Mianne Benchwork that will take care of most of the length of the layout along the brick wall.

Thank you for taking a look.

Mark, I'm new here and this is my 1st post.  So, in the picture with the screws (which I like b-t-w, what's in between the rails - is that a power lock on or something. I'm not familiar w this track.

Tom

Mike, Thank you.  I use a ScotchBright to clean the tops of the rails.

Lew, Just be careful where you spray the texture paint.  I suppose it would be best to have an exhaust fan or do it outdoors.  Neither option was available on the roadbed.  I need to figure something out before I do that again.

Richie, Thank you.  Yes, I like the flatheads.  Oh another thing.  I did not use any glue on the track.  I want to be able to lift it up very easily if I need to.  Also, I always leave the switches float-no screws so the mechanism can work well.  I learned that from a Kalmbach publication back in my HO days.

TomSuperO posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

 

Here is how the flathead screws look.

 

Mark, I'm new here and this is my 1st post.  So, in the picture with the screws (which I like b-t-w, what's in between the rails - is that a power lock on or something. I'm not familiar w this track.

Tom

Tom, Welcome to the Forum!!!  I'm glad you are here.

I hate soldering wire to rail.  I was trained as an electronics technician back in the mid '70s, and have soldered off and on for years, but I still hate it.  Most of my career, we used crimp-on lugs for wire connections to terminals, or punch down blocks in telecom.  Still occasionally I need to connect a wire to something rather flat.  Now it has been described elsewhere on this forum how to drill holes into the rail and connect wire to that with a screw, but I didn't want to try that.

I decided after 50 years in the hobby and 43 years in electronics, I would cheat so to speak.    I bought GarGraves track pins with wire pigtails already soldered on.  GarGraves #930W-12 and #930B-24

So I drilled holes through the table top and poked the wires through.  They are really soldered well.  However, in one place I didn't have a hole lined up well.  I really did put a lot of force on it to jam the wire into a bend and broke a solder joint. "If it don't fit, force it!"   I really don't think they will break under normal use.  

Hi Mark

 Nice to see the progress!

 With respect to your corner issue try adding a few O54 transition sections before going 042.

   You will get a nice gradual curve.

 I was also thinking alternate between 054/042 on the circle.

 Maybe experiment with it to see if that fits into your plan. It breaks up the symmetry and makes it a little more realistic imho

Al

Al, Thank you very much for the reply.  I am planning to do that on the other end where the track will loop around Parsons.  I have some 054 here for the mainline in the corner, but am stuck with 042 on the closer track that goes to the yard and the big turnback that is almost a circle I think.  A lot of the track will be covered with the hillside town of Thomas, so I am hoping that helps break it up.  It is amazing how space gets used up so fast!  

Mark it all looks good!  Now I know what I see those gaps in the track!  Thanks for posting that!  Did you hook any power to it yet?

Jim

Looking good, Mark.  I like that paint!

Jim, Thank you. I only clipped jumpers onto each track section to see if I had continuity and if an engine ran smoothly, then moved the clips jumpers to the next section and did it on each section.  I have not run any wires other than the pigtails.  The TIU and main terminals will be on the section of benchwork I haven't built yet.

Mike, Thank you!