Blackwater Canyon Line - November 17, 2024 - Scratch Built Church

Jim, Thank you.  Excellent questions!  Yes, we have to leave the built-in bookshelves there.  We don't plan to stay here after my mother-in-law across the road passes or is in assisted or nursing care permanently.  She is only 83 and very fit, so that could be a few years.  We want to get out of the split entry home with our knee problems.  The paneling is over 50 years old, and we would never find a match.  Besides, if I get into a remodeling project, I won't have money for the layout.  So, as I told Mum, when she asked about portability, I said I will be careful to make the top, track and scenery in easily removable modules, then the Mianne can be partially disassembled and reconfigured for new space. 

All that said, The depth of the shelves and benchwork totals just a shade over 36".  My plan calls for 30" depth.  I do not intend the layout to but right up to the wall since the windows are there.  I want to leave a gap for some kind of curtains, whether the white shears, or maybe a blue shears would look nice.  Also I'm thinking in the future, I may want to make a lightweight removable backdrop for photography.  I did not take the 6" difference into account designing the layout, so in effect my usable space may be 6" less than on the plan.  No matter, lots of things will shift when building.

So yes, you have a similar problem.  I plan to not have track right up against the back, then I am planning a lot of removable scenic sections with bases of foam for lightweight.  Against those windows, the scenery will just be a wooded mountainside, so it should be easy to slide in and out.  The 4' deep Christmas layout against windows has taught me a lot of lessons about what you put in the back if you go with something deeper than 30"   Answering Andy's question below, reminded me that that back corner of the corner piece next to the brick wall will have mountain scenery in a foam based section of its own.  

Peter, Thank you!  You are one of many who through your testimony helped me decide to buy the Mianne kit.  Your home layout is great!

Andy, I have read and talked with many folks who bought Mianne.  They all said assembly is quick and easy.  That is a total understatement!!  I couldn't believe how easy the instructions are, how easy it goes together, and how perfect everything is designed and cut.  I may have 2 hours in what I put together there, and I did most of it sitting in that rolling office chair!  I only got up to make some connections on the back corner of the corner section.

Bob, Yes, she has been going through a lot of stuff that has accumulated anyway.  My thinking is to put empty train boxes on the built in shelves, since I seldom need to get at them, then put other things in containers under the Mianne benchwork.  We will see how it works out.

Brian, Thank you!  Yes, I did well with running the snow blower and a little push shoveling yesterday.  The foot still tingles after I have been sitting any length of time, and the lower back has just a dull ache.  One think I was told, I need to use good posture and lifting practices, or I can aggravate the disk again.  We all should be heeding that advice.

Mark, I am glad to see you planning for the future! Yes, get out of the split level, no more stairs! get yourself a nice spread out ranch style! LOL Your progress is looking great and soon you will be running trains! Best of luck!

In response to a question on the "What did you buy cool" topic, I reported this new update.

I have a lesson that I have tried to put into practice and have been more successful in recent years.  When doing something new, I like to stop and look at it a day or two before continuing.  This is probably not wisdom of over 6 decades of life, it is more like I need a rest and it is too much trouble to undo something I goofed up.    So after looking at this for two days, it dawned on me that I would have no trouble with the layout, but I would if I needed access to those windows.  Those are the only windows that have not been replaced in this 50-year old house, and the ground level outside is only about 4 inches below the sills.

Talking it over with my wife, I am going to shift the layout away from the windows, allowing 3 feet access.  It will work.  I will have to move some things that are behind the camera that are going out anyway.  I have been doodling in SCARM with this, and will report back when I have something.  It's easier to do it in SCARM, than redoing things in three dimensions.  A lot lighter weight too!  

Glad you’re making progress Mark. I’m looking forward to following along.

Andy

Thank you Andy!  I'm excited!  And I don't get excited about much!  

Sounds like a good plan Mark! Only move it once and still have access to the windows! I too will be watching your progress, but don't hurry as the fun is in building it!

Thank you, Mike!  You are exactly right that the fun is in building it, and to not hurry!  While we do like to get trains up and running, there is something to be said for even taking time to get to that point.  Getting trains up and running doesn't mean getting all the track laid and wired before the fun begins.  You showed us there is fun in just getting that small section of your track operational!

Looks great, Mark.

You're right about stepping back a day or two before embarking on that next great idea. I did that on my new layout and probably thought of a million little tweaks that I would not have if I just went right ahead and built it like I first thought.

I made another SCARM revision moving the whole layout away from the windows at the left. and over next to the door on the right.  To make walkways work, I had to squeeze the turn back loops down to almost 054 circles.  I had to flip the staging yard to make the tight 042 curve, but it turned out pretty good.  I have a steady 2.6% grade through the switches on the passing siding.  I was not able to include the branch line I added for the Shay, or it would make for not enough aisle space at the top.  Overall, I think it turned out pretty good.

Nice revisions Mark. Maybe the shay could run on a separate spur line on top of the bookshelves.  . Just an idea to keep that beautiful shay at work!

JD, That is a good suggestion!!!  A really good suggestion!! 

I'll give that a good look over!!  Thank you!!

An apparent setback turned into a feature!

Mark, I cleaned it up, added the spur, replaced some of the flex with cut sectional tracks and redid the grades, hope you don't mind. I didn't raise the spur or add the percentages, but I'll do that tomorrow, I still want to play with the bottom at 0".

Dave, Thank you!!  I was just now going to go back to the computer and add the sour JD suggested.  I certainly don’t mind anything you want to do on it.

Farmer_Bill posted:

An apparent setback turned into a feature!

 

A Feature is correct, Bill!  Thank you!

Mark, I really like your new layout.  What height did you go with, on the Mianne Benchwork?

Mark, I like the new plan as it leaves the window area open, plus some days your going to want to be able to look out the window to see all that wonderful SNOW! LOL

You have planned well, and the two days of reflection after making changes is an excellent idea.  

Your personal record has been awarded ten merits for careful, long-term, planning in the construction of a model railroad.

JD2035RR posted:

Nice revisions Mark. Maybe the shay could run on a separate spur line on top of the bookshelves.  . Just an idea to keep that beautiful shay at work!

        definitely a GREAT idea JD

                               throw in a couple switch backs...

                                  and keep the shay busy on the hillside...

Richard, Thank you.  I picked the 40-inch legs.  I like higher layouts.  That would make the 0 level about 42” and the highest track about 50”.  I have had layouts that high before 

Mike, You are right,  those windows give a back view of the shrubs.  The ground level is only about 4 inches below the window sills.

Tom, Thank you!  I think I’m doing good in the fact of getting started and seeing the flaws of the initial plan 

Brian, That does leave 12 feet of shelf that is already there.  I can’t go too high, but one switchback like the first photograph of Cass would work.

I know this isn't right, but I wanted to show how much space would be needed and how it defeats the purpose of reconfiguring the layout to begin with. One might work, but I'm not sure it's worth it.

Dave, Why is it I always think I can do something big in a small space?  LOL. Maybe it is because I still think in a smaller scale!

 Thank you for bringing me back to the reality of space and time!!  I’m ready to concentrate on the main plan and not worry about a branch line.  Right now the Shay is splitting time between the Ceiling Central Railroad and test running on the first try of the Blackwater Canyon Line still in the little room.

 Thank you!

Not sure of the reality of your spacing, but going to throw this out there as food for thought.  There could be a Y coming down out of Thomas that would take you on the Chaffee branch. From what I read, and as you eluded to, the Chaffee branch was very steep, up to 9% grades and very sharp curves so a smaller radius curve would be prototypical to get you turned around to the bookshelf/Chaffee branch.  You could then also connect to the incline going down to Parsons.   

WOW some great ideas floating around on this thread! 

Jim

Mark, here are some more changes with grades marked, etc.

I added Chaffee at 18" elevation with an 8.9% grade. That may be too high for the Shay, but I figured go big to start.

I added the Wye with an O54 curve on the right side and O42 on the left. I don't know iof the Wye is worth it, but you can make that decision later.

Because of the Wye, the grade to Thomas at 8.5" is now 3.5%, but that can be reduced. I just didn't mess with it too much not knowing if you like the idea or not.

Parsons can easily be raised to 2" and grades adjusted accordingly. In fact, since this is hill country, Parsons could be raised to 3" and the grade to it from Elkins would still be under 2%.

I change all tracks to overpasses so you can see the separation better in 3D. I'll work on adding the landscape polygons and post an updated file later.

JD, You are correct about how steep the Chaffee Branch was.  There were switchbacks, but as Dave points out they are impractical for the space.  The Shay can handle 042 curves as MTH advertised, but the drive gear look better on 054.  I have tested it out on both.  I think it is a good idea to ponder while I start building the main portion of the layout.  The mainline should probably level out to put in a wye, but I can work that out if I decide to do that.  In the meantime, I'll just plan on a steady grade.  I wouldn't get to building a branchline this year or next year for that matter.  

That said, I had been planning to start building on the shelves on the left side of the plan and the stacked loops because I wanted to make sure I got the two levels in place between the height of the book case and below the height of the window sills.  Now, that doesn't mater so much, so I think I will start on the wall at the bottom of the plan.  As Dave said he was going to try to get the mainline at level 0" along that portion to the Parsons curve.  I wouldn't have to have the height and grade set on the back, higher portion of the mainline at first.

I have some 042 curved GarGraves track I don't need, but will have to buy a lot of 054.  I am fine with making slight bends on GarGraves flex track.  I am not interested in bending flex track to that precise diameter.  I tried all that out on the Ceiling Central Railroad.

Jim, you are right.  I am very thankful to everyone who presents an idea!!

Dave,  Your assumptions on grades are just what I was thinking.  The grades will be a moving target even as I am building it.  Just so I leave enough overhead room between the lower and upper levels.  Now that I moved the layout away from the windows, I would have access all around that section and could cover what I want hidden with a removable fascia of some sort.  You did the wye as I just replied in response to JD's last comment.  I only have to decide when it comes time to layout the grade at that curve where the wye is whether to do it or not.  

The slight grade from Elkins to Parsons is quite acceptable.  In reality, it goes up at a slight grade from both towns to a low summit in between.  I don't have the room for that, so this is quite acceptable.  Besides, I am only looking to give a semblance to the real places with a keynote scenic feature here and there.  Otherwise, I hope to make it a generic West Virginia.

I still plan to have the Town of Thomas on a hill so that what is to the left and top of the drawing will have buildings at a higher level than the right and bottom.  It will be like looking up the hill when standing in the middle of the layout, but looking down into the valley when standing at the upper left.

It looks great!  Thank you!

Mark, bear in mind that you only need as much space under the upper level as your tallest rolling stock plus decking and roadbed. That probably means less than 7". Right now part of the lower level will be exposed and the rest can be covered with a removable tunnel side. Also, the midsection of the upper level can be removable, so you can reach everything with the reduced clearance.

Be that as it may, try this on for size. Note the lower level is mostly exposed in this rendition, except for the spur. Also note that I added a short piece to the yard because the top set of tracks will not clear the engine house as it was.

The biggest change that I think should be made is doing away with the Wye. I see the Shay going from Elkins to Parsons and Thomas before Chaffee. Then, since the Shay will have to back down from Chaffee anyway, it can back into the Thomas loop and then pull out to go back to Elkins. It saves having to buy 2 switches and reduces the grades. It also makes for a longer run,  but I don't know the area you're modeling, so I don't know if that route makes sense or not. It also means you can invest in the wye switch and just have it simulate going to Chaffee though a fake tunnel if you decide not to add the spur. What say you?

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark, bear in mind that you only need as much space under the upper level as your tallest rolling stock plus decking and roadbed. That probably means less than 7". Right now part of the lower level will be exposed and the rest can be covered with a removable tunnel side. Also, the midsection of the upper level can be removable, so you can reach everything with the reduced clearance. 

If you plan to use tunnel portals, you may want to take their actual dimensions into account when determining the height of the second level.  These woodland scenic portals are 9 inches tall.  They may look funny if your second level is at 7 inches.  Granted you can cut the bottoms of the legs to a certain extent, but then the portal starts crowding the train. 

How do I know? On my second level of my postwar style layout, I only went to the height of 5 inches - same as the trestle set, bridge rock piers, etc.  Without thinking about it, I ordered some portals and they rise up well over the top of the second level.  woops! haha

Description

Tunnel Portals are built at the entrances to tunnels. They hold back rocks and dirt from tunnel entrances and are often used in combination with Retaining Walls. Easy to color with Earth Colors™ Liquid Pigment.

Meets NMRA specifications.

Outside: 8 3/8" w x 9" h (21.2 cm x 22.8 cm)
Inside: 4 1/4" w x 6 1/4" h (10.7 cm x 15.8 cm)

Good point to consider JD.

I have a question.  How many main line engines can you run at the same time with this plan?  I get confused following some of the track.

TheDude23112 posted:

I have a question.  How many main line engines can you run at the same time with this plan?  I get confused following some of the track.

 

Curious as well... its basically a single track with reverse loops on either end (they're stacked at Thomas) and there's a passing siding. 

Maybe this will help, this is the mainline. I can see running 3, but it will require stopping 1 on the main by the passing siding as the 2nd pulls out and the 3rd pulls in. This is probably not prototypical though, so realistically only 2. However, if the passing siding were expanded like this, it could hold 2 trains if they were small enough. Theoretically, 2 small trains could also fit in each loop, so 5 could be run, but it would take some coordination. And my experience watching trains along I-10 and I-40 says that kind of coordination is used all the time, though not with reversing loops, just with multiple passing sidings along the routes.

And, if you change the upper level to something like this, there would still be a reversing loop, it would be easier to run more trains and also make the grade easier with only one switch on the grade, though the 2nd switch could still be included for the passing siding.

Where is the Blackwater Canyon ??

Dave, I like the idea of using the one switch for the Chaffee branch as you showed in the last SCARM file ...12-24b...  You are right, I could put the switch in while building the mainline and make it look like it goes off into the trees until or if I put in the Chaffee Branch.

JD, Excellent point that could easily be forgotten!!  Thank you for all the detail and photograph.  I don’t know that I will even use portals.  The intent is to hide the lower turn around track I am naming Elkins with buildings, trees, or rocks.  Since I am using this simply as a way to turn a train, I want the train to just disappear from view.  I will have to work that all out as I go.  The portals on the SCARM drawings have just been arbitrary to tell SCARM that the track is hidden under the other.  So, I think Dave’s comment of 7” or less works in this case; the smaller the opening, the better.

TheDude and ATANZ,   Good question!  Thank you both for bringing it up.  I have not discussed how many trains for a long time.  I deserves mention again with the revised plan, since it’s been a year since we talked about one or two passing sidings. Dave has a good handle on it.  I will be operating alone for the most part, but want to make provision for a second operator.  Operating more than one train on the same track by myself is too nerve wracking, but I have never had a mainline this long.  So, my intent was one train could pull into the passing siding while a second passes.  I think I would only want one running while I am making a new train in the visible staging/fiddle yard.  By the way, the yellow rectangle represents a slot of yet to be determined length that I could drop in cassettes of so many cars that I would keep on shelves under the layout.  I plan to run detailed scale cars and my arthritis is bad enough, I fumble around a lot.  This should lessen damage to cars.  It is something I have never tried before, but plan to try it out early on in construction to see how it works.  So, two trains running and one being assembled in the yard is the most I had planned.

Dave, you are right, two short trains could fit in the longer siding.  Then that is an interesting idea to extend the passing siding into the turnback loop for extra trains as in the last drawing.  That may be something to play around with while building.  

Right now I have 5 engines.  F3 set, BL2, 0-4-0, 2-8-0, and the Shay.  Of course since I hope to have this layout a number of years, that number may increase. Did I say, may??  LOL

Jim, The Blackwater Canyon, also called the Black Fork Grade is in Northern West Virginia near Blackwater Falls, Canaan Valley.  It is south of Cumberland and Frostberg, Maryland.  Thomas, WV is at the top of the grade and Parsons is at the bottom.  The Black Fork is a tributary of the Cheat River which flows into the Youghiogheny R.

Mark, if you use the single switch to Chaffee, it won’t have to be a wye switch.

My comment about height clearance assumed you were going to make your own portals because JD is right, commercial portals are tall. The important measurements are the inside dimensions.

I had forgotten about the cassette idea, so disregard my comment about the engine house. Make sure the cassettes have a way to keep the cars from tipping, some kind of cover made from foam or something like what we use in camera cases for extra bodies and lenses.

 I did an early version dogbone idea for both loops, but at the time I didn’t think about extending 1 loop further down. I like the idea more because I’m trying to minimize the need for flex track. I’d like to reduce the need for curved switches too, but they seem to work where they are and I know you won’t be racing.

The other reason I like the single switch for the extended loop is because I have some concern about turning into the switch going down. If there is going to be a problem with a switch on the grade, I think that’s where it will be.

I’ll try to do some more fiddling with the goal of getting more track and Parsons to 0” elevation. I don’t like the idea of having almost all track on grades.

Dave, I haven't thought a lot about the cassettes, but I did at least think that I need sides and ends so nothing rolls out and there needs to be padding.  I also thought of using two handles that would go around the width for stability when moving and be able to slip off once in place.  I will do the testing with inexpensive cars.  I don't know what I'll make the handles of, but that's good enough for now.

You are right, I wouldn't need a wye switch for the branch with only one switch.  No, I won't be racing for sure!  I usually run in the teens or low 20s mph as shown on the DCS remote.  You do have a point about turning into a switch going down.  Thank you for pursuing the idea of the extended loop.

I agree with you about trying to get more level track.  First of all, it is easier to build, but also we are used to seeing railroad track that usually looks flat even if it has slight ups and downs.  Whenever you get the chance.  There is no rush on my part.  Today, I moved my sections of benchwork as close as I could get into place.  I don't know if anyone has noticed, but there is a fireplace with raised hearth on the long brick wall at about the place we have the upper portion of the passing siding.  I will have to cut one leg off 11" from the bottom and that leg can rest on the hearth.  No worry, the house is 51 years old, and the fireplace has never been used.  It is really a very bland looking fireplace, so we won't mind covering it with the layout.  Oh, the top of the opening comes right to the bottom of the Mianne cross members, so It can be accessed if need be.  (Accessed by a younger man than me is my idea) 

Thank you!!

               hello Mark...

          thought you might like this....

                           Railfanning Western Maryland Blackwater Canyon...

                 https://youtu.be/sXyoAnmhxDM