Mark Boyce posted:George, Yes the land acquisition closed, and we are now clearing the land to start construction.
Woo Hoo!!!! 
Mark and Dave:
I have a small concern about the plan pertaining to the track switch configuration on the right side of the drawing--in the blue color.
Learned wisdom and personal experience both recommend/suggest NOT using the curved portion of any turnout as a regular portion of the main-line. This practice is followed in reality because as in prototype and model, the biggest problem area with track are trains passing through the curved portion of a turnout (switch).--more derailments.
I respectfully suggest that you consider a slight revision and realign the turnouts so that the main line passes through the straight (tangent) portion of the turnout.
I apologize for being a pain. I do believe it will help to reduce derailments.
John,
You’re not being a pain at all. This is why I posted it all, for someone else to look it over and see something Dave and I missed. Good catch! I never noticed. Yes I have read of just the problem you mention about the main on the diverging track being the cause of derailments. I’ll look that over for a better way tomorrow.
This is an example of what we run into at work. No one wants to pay for enough engineers and technicians to have “a second set of eyes” look at anything like we did 30, 40, 42 years ago. We end up with egg on our face too often. Here we have the luxury of a dozen set of eyes looking at it!
Thank you!
FWIW, I've mentioned that in other designs, just didn't see a way to eliminate it without changing the overall configuration for that area. I should have looked at it again though when we settled on the yard design. I'm still not sure if you wanted the mini-yard for engine storage or not, but here's one way to fix it.
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Yes Dave, at a glance I thought of that! I am thinking the engine storage area would be nice, but I don’t know if I will decide until I build it. I may look for some other angle.
Thank you, Dave!
You can change the direction of the spurs and maybe go back to O42 curves for the loop to get more space for landscaping. You may not figure it out until you start building and that's okay as long as you know something needs to be changed. 
Yes, those are two possibilities for sure. You are right, as long as I keep it in mind, I'll figure it out when I get to it. I plan to start benchwork construction on the other end, so I can get the two levels fit properly between the built-in book shelves and the window sill. If I started in on the end we are talking about, I would get the measurements wrong somewhere and end up with the top tracks over the window sill. I can measure a half dozen times and still cut wrong! 
Mark:
Carefully consider your height for the layout. You could sit in a rolling chair and roll under to access openings at the wide spots versus crawling. Maybe the lowest support could be 50 inches up? You would have to test yourself seated to see....easier for access and even work on wiring. A thought....
Mark Boyce posted:John,
You’re not being a pain at all. This is why I posted it all, for someone else to look it over and see something Dave and I missed. Good catch! I never noticed. Yes I have read of just the problem you mention about the main on the diverging track being the cause of derailments. I’ll look that over for a better way tomorrow.
This is an example of what we run into at work. No one wants to pay for enough engineers and technicians to have “a second set of eyes” look at anything like we did 30, 40, 42 years ago. We end up with egg on our face too often. Here we have the luxury of a dozen set of eyes looking at it!
Thank you!
Mark is exactly right. The point of reviewing designs is defect prevention. The graph below, although specific to software development, is mostly correct for any significantly-sized system - problems found early are easier and less costly to fix.
For example in Panhandle 1.0 had my decision to use 11/32" plywood subroadbed been reviewed by others, it's likely that my poor choice would have been caught. And I would have been spared 5 years of rebuilding the layout.
George
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John C. posted:Mark:
Carefully consider your height for the layout. You could sit in a rolling chair and roll under to access openings at the wide spots versus crawling. Maybe the lowest support could be 50 inches up? You would have to test yourself seated to see....easier for access and even work on wiring. A thought....
John, Yes height considerations for the new plan in the new room haven't been discussed much. As with any space, there is always some odd consideration it seems. in the first room, there was the big sliding glass door in the middle of one wall. This room, it is the bookcase for the full 12 foot wall and 8 feet of windows. The windows are on the south wall with no trees obstructing the sun. The trees are all on the west and south sides of the house. The top of the book case is at 42 inches above the carpeted floor. The top of the window sill is at 55 1/2 inches above the floor. At the grades assumed, there would be an 8 inch difference between the rail heads of each level. Support under the lower level equals just about the 13 1/2 difference.
While I don't like the windows with all that sun, because I have heard of various scenic items fading in color over time, I don't want to block the natural light, because the only other windows are on the back door almost 30 feet away.
My thought is that since the track is mostly around the outer edge of the loops, I will run my wire feeds near the edges, so I won't need in the middle. Once built, I will need access more for derailments or track cleaning and scenery additions on the top. That said, I agree totally that it is much better doing wiring or anything seated as opposed to kneeling, squatting, (both of which I can't do any more) or laying on an automotive creeper as some model railroaders do.
All that said, nothing is set in stone yet for sure. It is definitely something to think out. I won't get to building until fall or winter anyway. Thank you.
G3750 posted:Mark Boyce posted:John,
You’re not being a pain at all. This is why I posted it all, for someone else to look it over and see something Dave and I missed. Good catch! I never noticed. Yes I have read of just the problem you mention about the main on the diverging track being the cause of derailments. I’ll look that over for a better way tomorrow.
This is an example of what we run into at work. No one wants to pay for enough engineers and technicians to have “a second set of eyes” look at anything like we did 30, 40, 42 years ago. We end up with egg on our face too often. Here we have the luxury of a dozen set of eyes looking at it!
Thank you!
Mark is exactly right. The point of reviewing designs is defect prevention. The graph below, although specific to software development, is mostly correct for any significantly-sized system - problems found early are easier and less costly to fix.
For example in Panhandle 1.0 had my decision to use 11/32" plywood subroadbed been reviewed by others, it's likely that my poor choice would have been caught. And I would have been spared 5 years of rebuilding the layout.
George
George, Yes I got into a discussion with a company trainer back before I took the severance package and came back as a temp engineer. There were people in the seminar from various disciplines, and the trainer asked us each to name something we didn't like about how we have to do our work. Well mine was no second person to review work before it goes out. Well I thought it was an innocent comment, but she really jumped on mine. She gave the company's view that the work gets corrected eventually, so who needs someone to review. It will all come out in the wash. As you pointed out, Maintenance is a high cost, and evidently the company is ignoring that. Maybe because the cost comes from a different budget is all I can guess. I could go on, but you and I see things the same way. I just thought I would share that little incident.
I did feel bad when I learned a few months later that this trainer, whose office was in California and ours of course in Pennsylvania, had passed away suddenly of some before undetected malady in her mid 60s. She did her work with such enthusiasm; it was sad.
Mark, IIRC you chose 8" to give you easier access to the tracks that will run beneath the upper level. Don't forget that the overall height also has to consider the height of your rolling stock, so you'll be awfully close to that 13 1/2" separation when all is said and done.
Good point Dave for sure!! That is why I want to start at that end of the layout. If I have to have it above the window sill I will because my wife asked if she can keep books, videos, games, etc on the bookshelves. My construction will have to make easy access for her, which is maybe the best reason for making the layout high as John suggested! She donated the land for the right of way, so we will have to give her all the easements she desires!
Reminds me of a true story my maternal grandmother told many times. When the PRR wanted to build a branch line from the Connemaugh Division at Freeport up over the hill and back down to Butler, the railroad people came to her father and said they wanted to build across part of his farm. They were willing to pay a certain amount, but great-grandpa said he was willing to let them have the right of way for free, because he could get his farm goods and lumber he cut transported with ease.
Funny, once the line was abandoned in the '80s and they were building the bike trail, one farmer took the local rails to trails to court claiming the right of way reverted back to him afterwards. He even dumped truck loads of rock on the right of way to block bikers. He lost out, and has now passed on. Now his son, who is a friend of mine, raises turkeys right up next to the bike trail, and it is a nice stop for city bikers to get a bit of a view of farm life. 
That's a good story, Mark. As you know, I have a similar problem with the bottom of the framing needing to be above 36" and the top of the rolling stock preferably not going over 43". Fortunately, my rise is only 3" and I don't really have to even do that, so I should be okay, though I am going to use a simple set of 3" tall box frame modules for the 16' legs of the "L".
Looks like the development crew is all over the new land acquired! Looks good to me!! Good luck with the construction.
Mark, I think you are absolutely correct about your story above and the 'maintenance comes from another budget' is also spot on. I worked for a very large company for 20 years that operated the same way. It just never made sense to me so I finally quit and went elsewhere. The big wigs in the big corporations seem to look at things a lot differently than the folks doing the work. 
Also, they were constantly trying to reinvent the wheel for everything they were doing...I have a good story or two about that as well!
Now that I have finished moving my brass instrument repair business out of my house, I have some layout time. This afternoon, I did some work removing track and old road bed from our city scene in preparation for the addition of switches and sidings and a fresh blanket of snow for the city. There is new industry moving into the city of Christopolis and new sidings must be added. Also, our busy dock at our harbor is getting a siding to facilitate the unloading of freight from boat to train. Several new switches are being added as passages from one main line to the other that serves Christopolis for ease of routing trains to there correct tracks in the new Union Station that is being built. The rural suburb of Terryville will also receive a face lift once the city is complete.
I'm looking forward to getting some non hobby things done so I can get back to my layout too, Randy! While I don't like the idea of the blanket of snow...Outside that is, I'll be ready I think once the leaves are all picked up for the winter!
Since I have had several folks ask me how the new layout build is going, I thought I would post something here for everyone who has been following. I knew I wouldn’t get started on the new, expanded layout until this winter, but some support items have taken place.
Since my parents went to live in a personal care home last summer, I have been cleaning out a lot of things from the basement, garage, and workshop on another basement. Since the house has been in the family since 1888, there are lots of things to make decisions on whether to keep, throw out, or have salvage people take. In addition, there is a lot of mowing and repairs that I have been doing. I did bring a load of lumber home that I can use on the layout. I really don’t have an inventory of that yet however.
As many modelers and collectors, I have accumulated more engines and rolling stock than I can use even on the expanded layout. So I have been thinning the roster of items that don’t fit the Western Maryland Blackwater Canyon theme. Since I want a scenic backdrop behind the layout, I don’t have wall space for many shelves to display models. What space I will have is the wall at the top of the drawing between the two top doors. Right now our older daughter’s 100+ year old upright piano is covering the wall. There is an outside chance that they may move into my parents’ house, so I don’t want to see them move it twice. I helped move my mother’s spinet piano to our younger daughter’s home, which was a much easier move. So I will wait on getting that wall freed up. I want to use it for train photographs and signs, so only a few shelves for the three postwar trains I have.
Due to some financial setbacks, namely me working only part time for the last year and not being able to put money away for real estate taxes and emergencies, we have drained the liquid savings a bit. So I made some hard decisions on selling a few more items than I had first planned. I still have plenty.
So my engine roster as it stands are a WM H9 2-8-0, two WM BL2 only one is powered, a WM RSD5, a WM F7 A-B-A, and two B&O F3 A-B-A sets. The WM units are all Premier PS3 except the F7 which is Premier ProtoSound (PS1) with only one powered unit. The nice B&O F3 set is Premier PS2 with two powered A units, but the other one I got a deal on, is ProtoSound (PS1) and two shells were broken and the repair job and repaint leaves a bit to be desired. They run good however. My plan is swap the bad shell for the non-powered WM A unit, and upgrade both WM A units to PS3. I have the upgrade kits. I upgraded the BL2 from PS1 to PS3 already. I may put the motors and electronics in the non-powered BL2 or leave it in the remaining A unit. The B&O units are a tribute to the B&O F units I saw on the nearby mainline while I was growing up in the ‘60s.
I would like to buy another WM steam engine, actually 2 would be nice. I have looked at the latest Russian Decapod, but the price tag is too high. A Pacific for the passenger train would be nice too.
As for rolling stock, I have about 15 2-bay open hoppers for coal traffic, some miscellaneous boxcars, a few tank cars with local names on them, some nice billboard reefers, a few flat cars and gondolas, and some caboose. I would like to get a couple more Western Maryland caboose when I see them. I have a Railking 7-car set of 60-foot heavyweights in WM paint. I also started collecting WM streamliners that are also RailKing. These are special runs by the Frostburg Maryland club. Last year they did two coaches, the order forms are in the mail for this year’s 2 cars, and they plan to do an observation and baggage car I think in the fall of 2019. So by the end of next year I hope to have the 6-car set of those.
I also brought up that since I had the area basically built for the loopback curve at my lower town, I realized some of the commercial buildings I have are just too big for my use. I sold the Menards Power Station, because I decided to only make a spur to the coal yard, and paint the Mount Storm Power Station, where I was once employed, on the backdrop in the distance like the prototype. Several people suggested I hold off selling the larger buildings, as I could cut them apart for flats. I am going to take that advice and see where it goes.
Well, that is where I am at. I will be happy to see any comments anyone has. Thank you.
Sounds good, Mark. It's always good to thin out the stock every once in a while and concentrate on what you really like. There's an old adage about clothes that says if you haven't worn something in over a year, it's time to get rid of it. I'm not sure it's the same for model railroading, but you get the point.
You've now focused on what you really like and what works for you rather than just randomly collecting stuff and that's a good thing. You'll be ready to go once the layout is done.
Mark Boyce posted:Reminds me of a true story my maternal grandmother told many times. When the PRR wanted to build a branch line from the Connemaugh Division at Freeport up over the hill and back down to Butler, the railroad people came to her father and said they wanted to build across part of his farm. They were willing to pay a certain amount, but great-grandpa said he was willing to let them have the right of way for free, because he could get his farm goods and lumber he cut transported with ease.
Funny, once the line was abandoned in the '80s and they were building the bike trail, one farmer took the local rails to trails to court claiming the right of way reverted back to him afterwards. He even dumped truck loads of rock on the right of way to block bikers. He lost out, and has now passed on. Now his son, who is a friend of mine, raises turkeys right up next to the bike trail, and it is a nice stop for city bikers to get a bit of a view of farm life.
The same thing happened with my buddy's family . Miles of the Mac were supposed to revert back to the family. No compensation was ever given, the original contracts blown off by the courts. The land was stolen imo. Eminent domain includes compensation, there was none. And age alone doesn't void a contract. ....The same year of another contract that keeps some donated land from being anything but the city's largest park. And of another where the land was recovered before house building began. All this land was chosen carefully to build up the area between Alpea and Mackinaw... and this is the thanks they get ... There ought to be a law 
...oh wait... That was ignored 
Good to see the train juices are flowing Mark. 1888??? WOW 
That is an amazing accomplishment these days. You don't hear of houses staying in families like that too much any more. My In-laws have been in their house since '64 (my wife's childhood home), and they told her the other day that they want to leave the house to her. Maybe one of my kids will wind up in it one day.
All the stuff you do for your family keeps you busy. If you want , the guys around here could start a petition to let you have some time for trains.
Hope you get to start the build before the end of the year.
Bob
Adriatic, Yes That is right, we have too many laws, but they are often ignored anyway.
Bob, We live in a house my wife’s grandparents had built in 1968. Wasn’t our particular choice, but we have been here 7 years.
"If you want , the guys around here could start a petition,
to let you have some time for trains. "
sounds good Bob !
" TRAIN TIME FOR MARK" petition !
here is to some train time for you soon Mark ... Brian
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Mark,
I hope things even out for you and you can get to starting the build soon.
George
Brian, Ha Ha! I like that RS3 that you have there the best!!
George, Thank you very much!!!
Mark, I hope you get going here sometime soon, but don't hope for snow! LOL I know what you mean by taking awhile and in my case its the same low funds! But as I have told many others. Slow and easy! Its the build that is the trip your on, running the trains when you can are the vacation! Just enjoy as much of it as you can! I will be watching!
Mike, Thank you! I always enjoy the trip to and from in addition to the vacation. For instance I watched two Norfolk Southern freights climbing from Horseshoe Curve to Cresson Pennsylvania while travelling along US 22 to go to spring York, the second of my two trips there. Not bad!! I like the scenery over the mountains!
We are so busy with other things, that time passes quickly, so I will be sawing and drilling before we know it.
BTW When is that clutch going to be fixed, and when will you recover from the financial setback to resume heavy layout construction?
Hi Mark, the transmission gets fixed on Monday! It will be a little while to recover. But my Brother felt sorry for me and brought me some more 1 x 4 so I could finish most of my bench work , along with 2 sheets of 1/2" plywood. A friend down the street says she has a 300' roll of 18g speaker wire I can have if I want to use it for my power runs! I think I will take her up on it!
Things are all good, just slow!
Mike, Transmission work is never inexpensive. My car goes in for state inspection Monday. Also, I am leaking steering fluid. On a 2004, I don't want to pay a lot for this muffler, but I don't want a car payment either. We will see.
Free wood and wire works as well as store bought, actually better than the wood some places sell as we have discussed on this Forum many times. Take them up on it!!! As you may recall, all my wood and Homasote has been free so far! The stuff I got from my dad's shop is good, it is just a menagerie of sizes!! I can get more free plywood as well from an O gauge friend who gets it at work. They just pile it up for scrap after using it as separators on semi truck loads. He hauls cheese, nothing but cheese; and plywood!!
Mark Boyce posted:
So my engine roster as it stands are a WM H9 2-8-0, two WM BL2 only one is powered, a WM RSD5, a WM F7 A-B-A, and two B&O F3 A-B-A sets. The WM units are all Premier PS3 except the F7 which is Premier ProtoSound (PS1) with only one powered unit. The nice B&O F3 set is Premier PS2 with two powered A units, but the other one I got a deal on, is ProtoSound (PS1) and two shells were broken and the repair job and repaint leaves a bit to be desired. They run good however. My plan is swap the bad shell for the non-powered WM A unit, and upgrade both WM A units to PS3. I have the upgrade kits. I upgraded the BL2 from PS1 to PS3 already. I may put the motors and electronics in the non-powered BL2 or leave it in the remaining A unit. The B&O units are a tribute to the B&O F units I saw on the nearby mainline while I was growing up in the ‘60s.
I would like to buy another WM steam engine, actually 2 would be nice. I have looked at the latest Russian Decapod, but the price tag is too high. A Pacific for the passenger train would be nice too.
How could I forget. The engine I have had the longest. It is a Premier PS2 B&O Atlantic 4-4-2. I just got it out and put it on track this past weekend. I love those large drivers and trailing wheels. It's a keeper too.
Mark and Mike,
I wish you both good luck getting back to your layouts. I admire your patience on your layout building, especially with all the setbacks. Too many setbacks sometimes make me lose interest for some time, at least until everything gets back to normal. Then it takes me a while to get back into everything.
Maybe the fall and winter will bring time to catch up an all fronts. It's great to have friends with access to things that are useful to train layouts too, rather than having to go to HD or Lowes all the time. And maybe that piano will soon get relocated too, so you have your space!
Thank you RTR!
Here's where the piano is. I can get building even if it is still in the way! 
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I guess the piano isn't in the way that bad then. Just have to suck it in when passing by it, or at least I would. I bet that thing does weigh a ton! That one might be difficult to move, even for those young & healthy lads.
I was going to pay movers to move it for them. Then I got on part time, the no time, now back on part time for now. I can live with it right where it sits for now, since I am going to start building the over and under section on the upper left, so I can get the spacing right between built in bookshelf and windows. I have just enough room with Dave's plan, but if I started at the other end, I know it wouldn't match up right mo matter how many times I measured,
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RTR, thanks for the kind words. Most of the time I am ok with the speed that things are going as long as its moving forward. But this truck and other stuff going on is dragging me down!
That's why it was a nice surprise when my brother showed up with some lumber for me ! What a great guy! so I have been slowly working on the cross members for the bench top to rest on. Drilled all the holes for the wires that I hope to run before I put the top on so it will cut down on time under the table ! LOL
I will try and post some pictures this coming weekend!
Hi Mark!
Awesome that you have aquired additional real estate and the layout is coming together.
Can’t wait to see your version of the WM
Maybe pick up one of those MTH Premier WM Challengers lol
The MTH Decapod would be a nice model for your layout maybe Santa can oblige one year
Good to see lots of help from Forum members assisting
Al
I like the track plan, Mark. The way the return loops are integrated is very neat.
Al, Thank you! The Challenger would be great, but the price tag is prohibitive as I think you guessed. That is why I didn't mind 054 and 042 curves.
Dan, Thank you! Yes, the plan is neat. I have to give credit to the Forum members who contributed, especially DoubleDAZ Dave for doing the plan in SCARM.
Mike,
I know what you mean about things that can drag one down. Car/truck problems can be really trying and I sure hope they get you fixed up. It's such an inconvenience too, a real PITA. It's nice you have a brother like that and you can still keep plugging along with your layout building. That sure helps. I'll be on the lookout for more pictures whenever you can get to them. Good luck with everything too!
Mark,
I think you are definitely starting on the right end. I can see where starting elsewhere might just create a problem or tow later on. Probably would with me as well. I'm betting Dave's plan will be pretty accurate, he's really good with those track plan programs and layout design.
I think piano movers would be a good idea too, if budget ever permits. Someone inexperienced could get hurt trying to lift/move that thing! Hopefully your work will pick up to where you can be comfortable until full retirement. Good luck with all of it, and all the extras you are doing for the old folks and the other properties. To me, that sounds like full time work!
