Blackwater Canyon Line - October 14, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

Wow!  Lots of feedback!  Thank you everyone!  Thank you Dave for the different designs!

I think Dave showed that the wye is pretty much out.  It may fit, but there would be S curves, one loop completely under the other (which might be a okay) but I'm thinking it won't work well.

On the yard peninsula being parallel, I only see aisles about 18" wide.  That could be extended a couple inches here or there, but much too narrow for the long run.  I plan to store things under the layout.  I may need to roll a chair in someday in the future.

The angled yard makes larger aisles, but one pinches down to a point.  That may be more workable actually.

Now to the yard on the main shelf between the two mainline tracks.  Dave got it to fit in 30 inches.  There aren't as many tracks, but they can be longer.  That isn't bad.  

I think I am going to have to ponder this some more.  As was expected, none of the scenarios will be perfect.  Each will have a drawback.

Here is an idea someone emailed me about.  He sent me a hand drawn .pdf.  I doctored up an earlier design just enough to show the basic concept.  I know there are lots of gaps.  He is using this concept on his layout and I have seen others do it.  Instead of the end loops going through switches to single track mainline. He showed what is in effect a double mainline.  He likes that because he can run two trains independently with a longer run.  It is a good concept, but as I told him it goes against my desire to depict the prototype.  I'll through my chicken scratches out to stir the pot.  

Not to be another chef in the kitchen, but once the yard location is determined, I think those long straightaways on the main could use gentle sweeping curves 

Credit Ed Theisinger for the photo on ctt website

JD2035RR posted:

Not to be another chef in the kitchen, but once the yard location is determined, I think those long straightaways on the main could use gentle sweeping curves 

Credit Ed Theisinger for the photo on ctt website

 

You are absolutely right JD!  Here is that consist just waiting for a layout!!  The photograph you posted shows why I am leaning against the double mainline up and back down.

I like the new design. I know you're trying to keep the width to 30" but you might consider adding one more siding and making the width a little bigger - perhaps 36". I think it would be worth the extra effort, plus once it's built, you shouldn't really have to stretch and reach the purple line against the wall.

The extra width in the middle should also allow you to build a nice layout/control panel.

Richie C. posted:

I like the new design. I know you're trying to keep the width to 30" but you might consider adding one more siding and making the width a little bigger - perhaps 36". I think it would be worth the extra effort, plus once it's built, you shouldn't really have to stretch and reach the purple line against the wall.

The extra width in the middle should also allow you to build a nice layout/control panel.

Richie, I agree, once done building, it should be rare to need to reach in 36".  The extra 6 inches would be very valuable.

Mark, I tried the dual main approach early on, but didn't show you. Here's a current version based on the latest design. I did not go through the trouble of setting heights or grades, so I'm not including the SCARM file. Note the reduced size of the yard. That can be offset some by deleting the runaround track. Just more food for thought.

Mark Boyce posted:

Richie C. posted:

I like the new design. I know you're trying to keep the width to 30" but you might consider adding one more siding and making the width a little bigger - perhaps 36". I think it would be worth the extra effort, plus once it's built, you shouldn't really have to stretch and reach the purple line against the wall.

The extra width in the middle should also allow you to build a nice layout/control panel.

Richie, I agree, once done building, it should be rare to need to reach in 36".  The extra 6 inches would be very valuable.

I tend to agree with Richie, but increasing the width to 36" affects more than just the reach along the back wall. It also affects the size of the loop on the right side and the town you want to put there as well as the reach to the lower left corner. I always question just how hard it is to reach 36" simply by using a step stool. I do like the idea for a control panel and that could be mobile to swing under the layout.

Dave, thank you for finishing off the "double track" plan.  At this point, I do not think I want to go that route.  I like my collection of photographs like the one JD just posted above.  There will be a big curve in the corner and some flex track can make for some slight curves to give a hint of winding up the canyon.  I don't see a need to fool with that on a plan.  I'll just experiment a bit when I am building. 

Before supper, I did try the step up with a yard stick and 36" works fine.  I think in the long run, I'll like to keep the middle open for a swing out control panel, swinging the detachable section from the wall, and for just turning around.  Who knows, maybe I'll find myself in a wheelchair operating this layout someday.

I think that's a good plan, Mark.  If you go to 36" along the left and bottom walls, I think I can improve the yard along the bottom wall.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Here's a version with the yard on the main decking.

 

Well it's a new day, and time for a little reflection.  I think this basic plan is the most practical.  It gives room to move around while building, operating, and maintaining.  The grade on the pink line is long enough for me to incorporate the scenic effects I want with vertical separation.  One thing I have noticed on a layout where one or two trains are running, I tend to focus on the train and the immediate scenery to the train.  On layouts with numerous trains running, then I focus on the overall large scene, a large portion of the layout.  That will serve well for me ignoring the yard when running a train on the pink line up and down the canyon.

The loops at the top work well for Thomas, the town built on a hill.  I can have streets and buildings over the tracks, and when I need to get in the rear for a derailment or maintenance, I will just roll that section out into the open area. 

The town of Parsons will be in the lower right, and is very similar to what I have already built on the roll out in the little room.  I thought I had an old photograph of the real town, but can't find it now.  I'll get it later.

hello Mark, how about adding a longer yard lead so you can work the yard without fouling the main line...     you could still have a roll around extension to use once in a while... at least put the siding in when laying track in case you do make an extension in the future...

If you can stand hidden switches, you might add staging under the ramp up on the left and perhaps  the bottom.

Brian, I had thought of extending the yard lead closer to the loop as you drew in.  It occurred to me this arrangement would foul the main, but Dave said he was going to work on it some more, so I didn't say anything about that.  Also, I thought of extending the yard around the corner too, but I thought the curves on the yard tracks would be too tight for good coupling.  

The small roll around is a good idea, and like you say, it would be built later, so I could put in the track on the main table and in the meantime it would just look like a spur.

CTR, good comment.  I have thought of staging underneath, and like you say, "if you can stand it"  Some folks love it, and others find it a pain.  We had discussed it on the plan for the little room and threw it out.  However, anything is up for thought again. 

On a slightly similar note, I had rejected the idea, but was thinking last night I need to ask John C. if he has any videos of his drawers for extra cars on his layout.  Maybe even a roll out cart.  However, like I said yesterday, I don't like handling my detailed cars much.  That arrangement would only work for me with less detailed cars, which I do have.

Mark, the longer yard leads are already in the plans, if they'll fit. That version was just a quick mock-up to show you what the layout would look like with the yard in the center. The problem is the size/placement of the lower loop. The yellow line in Brian's photo would mean you'd come out of the loop and go right into a switch taking the "turnout" as the main and I'm not sure that's something you'll want to do, I don't believe it's prototypical either.

As you can see in the attached example, adding a switch to extend the leads is not as easy as it looks. However, once I expand the deck to 36" and maybe shrink the loop so the main can be moved to the right and a switch added to the left, maybe I can get things to fit. Shrinking the lower loop though will limit how long your trains can be, so we'll just have to see what works.

My understanding though is that you didn't plan to "work" the yard, so let me know if you want me to pursue these changes.

DoubleDAZ posted:

Mark, the longer yard leads are already in the plans, if they'll fit. That version was just a quick mock-up to show you what the layout would look like with the yard in the center. The problem is the size/placement of the lower loop. The yellow line in Brian's photo would mean you'd come out of the loop and go right into a switch taking the "turnout" as the main and I'm not sure that's something you'll want to do, I don't believe it's prototypical either.

     use a right hand switch on the main line, you would run thru the

     straight side of the switch...  "turnout" is  to the yard lead...

briansilvermustang posted:

     use a right hand switch on the main line, you would run thru the

     straight side of the switch...  "turnout" is  to the yard lead...

Obviously I'll do that if things will fit. But as I said, they won't fit unless I can reduce the size of the loop and move it over to the right. Even that's going to depend on how much will end up getting covered and if Mark wants the extra track taking up landscaping space.

                      yet another version Mark...

  this way allows for bigger visible radius curves,  eliminating the tight "S" curves...

                          and turnouts are now closer to you, easier to reach...

Brian, I believe those changes to the loops put too many tracks out of reach for Mark, but I could be wrong.

Mark, that said, here's what I've come up with.
-- I reduced the size of the lower loop, but I'm not completely happy with the front curves being so close to each other. I've seen layouts where the lower loop is covered, but left exposed for viewing, not sure what you think about doing that.
-- I also fiddled with some runaround tracks in the yard, but I wasn't sure how they're supposed to be configured, mostly just food for thought.
-- I also changed the spur in the right loop because changing to 36" shortened the spurs a bit.

Mark:  

Whatever you do, I would recommend that you stay completely away from 24 inch wide aisleways--way too narrow.  Fine for access but terrible when more than one person is there.  Bad for viewing as well.  30 is the bare-bone, but I do understand that there is ONLY "x" amount of space.  Compromise is always required.

I certainly appreciate what you are sayong about handling engines and rolling stock.  We "fiddle" ours rountinely and have broken off more pieces than I can recall.  We attempt to only fiddle cars that have less easier to break off parts.  You really struck a chord with me when you wrote of a 4-8-4 premier steamer.  I just managed to break off my connector between engine and tender yesterday!  Up to Mr. Muffins come Saturday.

Since you have been blessed with this "extra" space I would seriously focus on YOUR primary wants and wishes for this layout.  What are the most important elements of the layout.  What can you not live without? 

Here is a random thought, how much do you "gain" by having that yard?  I can tell you firsthand, you will NEVER have enough space on any model railroad to store all your rolling stock.  I have an entire basement and my yard lanes and storage lanes are not nearly long enough or large enough.  That is why we have shelves that hold 300 cars and I'm about to add my shelves.  Yes, I'm nuts and addicted I know.  LOL

I absolutely LOVE the loop to loop main line following the walls because it makes good use opf the space.  As far as the yard placement I just don't know if it's worth the space it takes.  AND, I'm looking at the track arrangement of this yard.  My question to you is WHY are the tracks arranged in this manner?  Are they patterned after reality?  Set up that way for a specific purpose?  Or just drawn to fit the space?

Last thought, because I've typed way too much already, an option to a yard and a huge space saver...I hope that I can explain this clearly enough....build staging "cassettes" that hold about four to six cars (I'm guessing that you will run shorter trains to make the layout appear larger than it is) and store them beneath the benchwork, yet make them easily accessible.  Have one area on your layout--a siding--off the main where you can either "drop-in" or "lift-out" a cassette to "fiddle" cars on and off the layout. 

The cassettes could be built with handles making it easier to handle and not touch rolling stock.  It would be easy enough to attach wires with male and female plug connectors to power the cassette lift-out set-in area.  Believe me, you could store a heck of a lot more cars under that layout than you could ever put in that centered yard--which may require using narrow aisleways and affect the asthetic appearance of the overall layout.

What are your main priorities and goals?    

Mark, I completely agree with John. I think we discussed something like that cassette idea way back when, though it was more like a sliding tray underneath the upper loop at the time. I don't like large yards unless someone is into "working" it and I don't think you are. I added the max I could fit, but I think it overpowers the layout way too much. If it were me, I'd just have a spur for a couple of extra engines and maybe 2 for rolling stock. One or both could be for a cassette. It'd be easy enough to indent that area by simply making it a removable section. If you use some kind of pins and sockets for power, you won't even need to connect wires, just drop in the cassettes. To make them easier to lift, you could make it so 2 smaller cassettes would fit back to back. You could have a roll-out cart with drawers for the cassettes.

I like Dave's pins and sockets idea--very clever!  Wish I would have thought of it.  :-)

You could also have removable landscaping on panels that would fit the cassette areas for when you didn't want to switch rolling stock.

Here's my vision. The yellow rectangles are the removable cassettes.

Well, That is a lot of feedback!!  I am back at the helm after doing some plumbing on a hundred year-old sink and 2 1/2 hours mowing (walking not riding) at my dad's empty house.  Then looking at what we need to remove an ancient gas heater at our older daughter's house so they can sell and finally move into Dad's house.  Good think I am only working 3 days a week, but the paychecks are slim.  

I appreciate all the thoughts.  First, yes the yard has gotten out of hand for my needs.  I want to just park some cars for making up trains.  For the prototype, that track goes from Parsons up a valley, over a lower ridge, then down into Elkins.  I'm not interested in replicating anything in Elkins, it is just off in the distant imagination.   

The cassette idea we talked about months ago sounds like a better idea now that we are exploring other ideas.  And to that, John, I am sorry you broke the connector to a tender.  Good thing Mr Muffin isn't far away.  A passing track on that inner track to the lower return loop is good which we were going to do in the little room.  Putting in a place to but the cassettes to the layout like the yellow track that goes off the layout looks like the place.  Yes, I like Dave's idea of the sockets, and seems to me I saw that somewhere whether it was to cassettes or a lift out bridge, I don't recall.  Liftoff scenery is good too.  I made a whole hill with a farm on it to cover a hidden turnback loop on an HO layout once.  It worked nicely.

Yes, I think that the aisles need to be large.  (Brian told me a funny story about narrow aisles on someone's layout)  Who knows, maybe everyone in Butler will want to come visit the layout someday!  Har-har-hardy-har-har!!   

As to Brian's drawing this morning, I do like where the switches are on the front side of the loop and not the back side.  I was going to mention that a few days ago, but forgot.  I don't know how track arrangements would work out for the other.  I do intend to make that a swing out section, but don't want to have to be swinging it out all the time when a car fouls a switch.

If some of this doesn't make sense, please just ask.  I got interrupted a few times while typing.  Thank you everyone again!!

DoubleDAZ posted:

Here's my vision. The yellow rectangles are the removable cassettes.

 

Ohhhhh!!!!  I wasn't thinking of that.  I like that, because where I was thinking of attaching it onto a stub track off the end of the layout, I would need to have a leg for it so I don't drop it all.  Well I still could drop it all, but I could drop anything even after taking all the precautions.  Then I just put in the scenery section once the cassette was removed.  I do like that.  Is that what others were thinking of, or has someone seen something different?

To be honest I forgot about the stub track idea. You could build a swing-out cart with "drawers" of cassettes and each drawer would be placed on top of the cart as needed so as to line up with the stub track. My problem with that idea is you'd have to keep pulling the cart out and putting it away or it would be in the way blocking the aisle. You'd also have to figure out how to deal with a switch on the cart.

My idea for the cassettes is that they'd have dual 37" tracks and be about 10" wide. You could place hooks at the corners and fashion some removable handles to make lifting them easier. The hooks could be covered with removable landscaping bushes or something.

Dave I know you gone to one heck of a lot of work. I love the drawings that you would do. You are great for doing those from Mark so he can visualize. I do have a suggestion though. I'm sorry to bring it up because I realize it's a pain to switch it. I would put the cassette area in the very front of the layout. Why? Because that way when you are switching in and out cars you are not reaching over other track or scenery doing it. In other words, someone could be running a train while somebody else was switching cars on and off the layout. It would not be a good idea to reach over while a train was in the area. Also, I would stick to the cassettes just being one single strip of track. Why? Because if it was double wide the cars could fall from side to side. I would make a single strip cassette. The cassette would have walls on each side and a wallet each end wall may not be the best term to describe it so that when Rolling Stock is setting on the cassette it cannot fall off the sides or roll off the end. That would be difficult to do with a cassette was anything more than just one single track. That is some more of my random thoughts. Also I'm thinking oh God here we go again that all the curves are a 42 diameter on the layout. Everything looks so excuse me standard. It is possible that in the corners in some places 72 diameter curves could be used. A big swooping curve might look better in some spots instead of everything being so neat. Again this is just a random thought. I think you guys might send out a party to kill me.

So have you closed the deal on the real estate or not!  LOL!

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I don't remember hearings about the cassette idea.  I love it!  I may do some R&D on that myself (Ripoff & Duplicate).

John,

just before we went to bed last night, I thought about moving the yard back to the front and figured I'd get to it today. That's where I had it back on May 16 when the discussion about the 36" reach came up. I was surprised Mark didn't mention having to reach those cassettes over the other tracks, etc., but it was a new idea, so it probably needed time to sink in.

As for the size of the cassettes, that's up to Mark. My thought was to add a removable box around the tracks, be it 1 or 2.

I have no problem changing the curves in the corners to O72 because they'd allow more landscaping there and reduce the reach. I'm also thinking about changing the loop on the right side and lower left inside corner to O54, but I'm afraid that might reduce the size of the yard and passing siding too much.

Either way, I thought by now folks would figure out that it's no problem for me to incorporate as many variations as possible, even those I don't think will work. After all, it's not my layout and I'm just trying to help Mark get as much of what he'd like as will fit. Plus I enjoy working with SCARM and trying new configurations. I don't know how many variations I've done, but I'm sure glad we didn't have to do this with paper and pencil.

John D. posted:

I've been following this thread since the beginning and I don't remember hearings about the cassette idea.  I love it!  I may do some R&D on that myself (Ripoff & Duplicate).

Some of that discussion and those versions were in emails between me and Mark when we were talking about different ways to store his rolling stock.

MartyE posted:

So have you closed the deal on the real estate or not!  LOL!

No, because I'll have another variation posted later after I get back from some appointments.

 I would make the cassettes work as display shelves as well.  When you want to swap in a different engine or group of cars, just walk over to the display shelf/cassette, grab it off the wall, and place it on the layout.  That way you can showcase your items, and still easily and quickly make changes. 

I ended up cutting short my comments last evening because our older daughter kept texting me about some repair questions at their fix-er-upper house that I need to go over today and take a look at.  I couldn't keep my mind train on the right track  so I just signed off and posted a partial reply.

First business: Marty, yes we did get an agreement on the new real estate.    I need to keep a 36" wide path from the door to the stairs and garage that shows in the upper left of the plan, to the door to the patio on the right side of the plan.  That is my rule, so I can move anything that will fit through the exterior door on through from front to back of the house.  Second, I keep the space on the lower right next to the door open for a sewing area for my wife.  We both can use the existing train room for model and sewing storage and a workbench.  Heavy duty work is done by me in the garage.  She also may use one former daughter bedroom for sewing after they move a bedroom suit out which wouldn't fit around an oddly positioned closet in their present house.  Demolition of that closet is underway.

Also notice I updated my topic title and link in my signature line to reflect the expanded area we have to work with.  I am going to address the cassettes, yard, and broader curves in my next reply coming shortly.

Mark Boyce posted:

I ended up cutting short my comments last evening because our older daughter kept texting me about some repair questions at their fix-er-upper house that I need to go over today and take a look at.  I couldn't keep my mind train on the right track  so I just signed off and posted a partial reply.

First business: Marty, yes we did get an agreement on the new real estate.    I need to keep a 36" wide path from the door to the stairs and garage that shows in the upper left of the plan, to the door to the patio on the right side of the plan.  That is my rule, so I can move anything that will fit through the exterior door on through from front to back of the house.  Second, I keep the space on the lower right next to the door open for a sewing area for my wife.  We both can use the existing train room for model and sewing storage and a workbench.  Heavy duty work is done by me in the garage.  She also may use one former daughter bedroom for sewing after they move a bedroom suit out which wouldn't fit around an oddly positioned closet in their present house.  Demolition of that closet is underway.

Also notice I updated my topic title and link in my signature line to reflect the expanded area we have to work with.  I am going to address the cassettes, yard, and broader curves in my next reply coming shortly.

That's awesome, Mark!!!  

Congratulations!      

George

Way to go Mark, Sure you weren't a car sales man! Way to make the wife happy and get what you want! That's a tough job for some of us! LOL

G3750 posted:

That's awesome, Mark!!!  

Congratulations!      

George

mike g. posted:

Way to go Mark, Sure you weren't a car sales man! Way to make the wife happy and get what you want! That's a tough job for some of us! LOL

Thank you George and Mike.

Mike, no salesman.   She actually brought up the idea.  She came to the same conclusion as I did a long time ago.  If there are only two of us, why do we need three sitting rooms?  We already have a living room and sunroom.  This family room was of value before my in-laws built the sunroom; since then it was just a form of habit.  Her mother bought this big sprawling house across the road, but she hardly has any furniture in it.  

Cassettes, Yes John and Dave I thought about the problem of reaching over the mainline to get at the cassette position last night, but that was an area I just left to address today when I was getting interrupted by texts from our daughter.  For a Dean's List college graduate, her communication skills leave a lot to be desired!   Probably because her major was art.  She has a one sided brain, I forget if that is left or right.  

I agree the walls on the cassette are a must!  Now that I see where they could be set down on the layout table, I am thinking that is the way to go for me.  J D, Keeping them on shelves on the wall is a great idea, since that would do away with the cart idea, pull out drawers, and all that stooping.  Looks like I have to wait until I'm over 65 before I can get a knee replacement; that's 4 years.  Maybe the cassettes could have slide up ends.  I could even glue in a little padding that would cushion but not adhere to small details when I start a juggling act.    One track or two; good question.  I think I would need to make a couple of mock-ups to see what works before finishing the area the cassettes will 'plug' into on the layout.  I used to have great hand-eye coordination.  In fact, I once was hired because I had the best lettering the manager had ever seen.  This was in the old draw with pencil and velum or Mylar, not this newfangled computer aided cheating we are using now.  Great big laugh here!!  Now after two carpal tunnel surgeries on each hand, an inoperable rotator cuff injury (I still do PT), and arthritis that sometimes makes my hands especially thumbs almost useless, I can't guarantee I will hold onto anything anymore.    Yes, I am under the care of an orthopedic and a rheumatologist, and things are manageable.  I only mention the orthopedic concerns so everyone can see why I am against crawling under, stooping down, and even carrying long unwieldy items.  

Yes, Dave and I have had private e-mail conversations, John C and I have also had e-mail conversations.  BrianSilvermustang has called me on the phone a few times, as well.  I apologize if I forget that a particular idea was covered privately, and the rest of you haven't seen it. 

Dave, To that end, over the phone Brian brought up the wider curves on the lower right loop as well for some better photo opportunities, as well as some variety.  We went with 042 curves so we could get this into 12 foot corners and still have room for sidings, town, etc.  My largest engines are two Premier H9 Consolidations in Western Maryland Fireball.  I would like to get a WM Decapod someday which will also handle 042.  All my diesels are first generation with 2 axle trucks.  Also my passenger cars are 15" so I don't need broader curves but the visual difference would be nice unless it crowds the rest of the layout too much. 

Dave, I like the broader curves in the corners in black on the latest capture.  As to crowding the yard-cassette space, all my boxcars and reefers are 40', all my hoppers are 2-bay.  Counting couplers, that is about 11" for a boxcar and 9" for a hopper.  I don't know how many cars per train, but my trains will be relatively short so as to make the layout look a little larger.  I may have to just accept the length of the passing siding, and make sure one train is short enough if I'm going to run two and have them pass.  Of course the passenger train would have the right of way, so it could be longer.  I think the yard with cassettes would fit there if we didn't have the tail track off to the left.

 If I missed anything, please ask again.  I won't be offended; I'll realize I overlooked something scrolling up and down the screen!  

John D, R&D Ripoff and Duplicate!  That's a good one!  Actually thinking about it, that's one of the reasons we are all here!  

I think everyone has their own perspective as to how their layout should look and how it should be operated and that's one part of what makes this hobby great. After all, these are toy trains and there is no absolute right or wrong - just opinions.

Personally, I dislike having to move engines and rolling stock from a shelf or other storage location to the track and then remove them and put them back after a running session so, from my perspective, I like having a large storage yard with as many sidings as I can fit, within reason, where I can park and move trains onto the layout without having to constantly take them on and off the layout. For me, the ease of being able to switch between trains is the ideal situation.

Plus, although trains on shelves can look good; for me, nothing beats displaying and seeing a train on a track and layout in its "natural" state, especially when you have guests over to see your layout.

Again, just my  $.02 and we're only talking about a 1 or 2 siding difference at most, but that's my perspective. Your mileage may vary and no matter what version you choose, it's a well thought out design and I'm sure you'll be happy with the results !

Richie,  I can appreciate what you are saying because actually I would prefer to have every engine and car on track ready to go as well.  If I only had Western Maryland engines I could probably do it on this layout, but I have just as many B&O engines as well.  But I also like building scenery and seeing the trains in the mountain scenery away from busy yards.  That is my dilemma, would a sizable yard overpower the scenes?  I don't know.  I have never had room to build a yard of that magnitude.

Here is a count of what I have.

engines - 13

2-bay hoppers - 20

covered hopper - 3

boxcar - 18

reefer - 14

caboose - 6

passenger car - 11

flat car - 7

gondolas - 3

tank - 5

Some of those will be up on my Ceiling Central RR at any one time.  That would be 2 engines half the passenger cars and a dozen freight cars.  So that may leave 45 cars of on the layout or shelves or cassettes at any one time.  Not many, but still enough.  While I am in a period where I am not buying any right now, someday there will probably be more.  I'll have to do a little figuring how much track space that takes up.

Thank you, Richie.