Blackwater Canyon Line - September 8, 2024 - Town and Scratchbuild Planning

I thought that might be the case, Mark, just wasn't sure.

Mark, I am with everyone else JUMP on  it! its a once in a life time chance!

I like the idea of a Wye.  But, those do eat up much more space quickly than you would expect.  I wanted to put one in a visible area on the Glacier Line and realized quickly that even to turn a small snowplow it would stick out in the aisle about four feet.  That's when I opted to build my scratch-built small turntable.

I'm still trying to envision your space.  I see the door to the train room.  I was thinking you might be able to maximize your space by "stacking" both "ends" of your line in your original space which would become a "hidden" area; complete with staging for both ends of the line.  The main could follow along the walls in the "new" area at no more than 30 inch depth and be a very long grade...your have a much longer run!

I'm still trying to envision/understand the space.

Here's another take:

Here's an O42 Wye in the upper left to show how much space is needed.

Mike, Dave, and John, thank you!!!  I just took some photographs of the room to show the space.  This is the door at the upper left, the main door from the staircase and the closet where I have all my engine and rolling stock boxes stashed.  First is entering the room and then exiting the room.  You can see in the upper left of the first photograph the bulkhead that covers the I beam and return duct that makes for a problem connecting the Ceiling Central RR between sides of the room as Brian asked about.

Next is standing near the middle of the room facing the front of the house, the opposite direction from the current train room.  We hardly use any of that area.  Actually the built in book case, which is 15" deep can come in handy.  The top of the book case is 42" off the floor.  The window sills are 54" off the floor.  Quite workable, I think.  The door from the first two photographs is just visible on the far right next to the light switch.

Next is turning around and stepping back a few feet looking towards the back of the house.  The piano, sewing machine table, and some boxes belong to our older daughter.  We plan to get the piano etc moved out this summer.  In the back to the right of the piano is the door to the train room with the blue walls.  In the middle is the door to the patio.  The five feet I can use that I mentioned is the corner where the desk and filing cabinet are.  Now you can see the Ceiling Central RR.

Here is the bugaboo corner with the three doors, the corner between the piano and the desk.  See how thick the door jam is to the train room.  This was the addition my in-laws put on that was not very well thought out.  The door opening is only 21" wide, and the wall is concrete block with brick on the train room side.  A few pages back we discarded every idea to go through the wall, through the laundry, or the door.  The only possibility was to have the Ceiling Central RR dip down so trains could go through the top corner of the door where I have the new wire I just pulled in Friday with the intent of connecting DCS to both the CCRR and the shelf on the far side of the blue room.  I really need to keep this area open, or I may blow the whole project since that is where traffic goes from the laundry, stationary tub, the rest of the house and the back door. 

Both John and Dave are on similar tracks.  Stack the two end loops.  The upper town which is Thomas on the real Blackwater Canyon Line can be in the yellow as in the current plan.  The lower town which represents Parsons (the one I started building can be in the back by the back door, and the line continues on towards Elkins which would be the lower stacked loop.  I do agree with John, I want to figure how to do this with no duckunders or pop ups and no stretching, climbing.  The doc says he wants to wait to replace my left knee after I retire in 3 years.  The last few months the right one is acting up too.  I also have a rotator cuff injury that is non reparable, just more PT,  that acts up when I stretch too far or lift.  Like a former coworker who got all his injuries riding motocross told me, "Mark, you never get any of injuries having fun, yours are all from work!!"    Mine are all from crawling on the floor too many years at work before I got my engineering degree and got a desk job at age 51, falling on ice, and falling running to catch my ride up the mountain to work.    

Dave, I just saw the post you made about the wye.  Yes, I agree, that would just be a mess.  Thank you and John on pointing out how much room that takes.

Well that gives some reference of what I have here.  Thank you everyone for all your input!!

Mark, congratulations on your new, larger trainroom!!!!!

That's worth celebrating!

George

Great news!

Peter

Mark, that sure looks like a nice space for a train room! You have so many options, just take your time and think it out well! But do claim the property as soon as you can! LOL

Mark,

What's behind the exterior door ? Not sure you want to invest this much time and money, but from the pics it looks like if you could move the exterior door back a few feet or so, you might be able to connect the train room to the new layout through that area without having to block the laundry room, etc.

Richie that is a good observation!  It could be done, but we are not in a financial position to do it.  The time to have done it was when my in-laws built the sunroom with the current train room underneath.  When my wife’s grandparents had the house built in 1968, they had a sliding glass door off the dining area upstairs with a small deck.  By the time my wife’s parents moved in, the deck was in bad shape, so they decided to build a sunroom in place of it where my ill father-in-law could sit, watch television, read a book, and watch the birds and squirrels in the trees.  The first proposal was to just build a room with pillars holding it up.  Instead, the builder built a regular slab with an unfinished room on the basement level.  The exterior dimensions are 12 x 12, probably all they could afford for the project.  They ended up putting the sliding glass door in the lower room (the current train room) which came into effect when designing the original Blackwater Canyon Line in the lower room. 

It would have been so much better to make the room a little wider, putting a decent regular interior door into the new room, and then have the exit off that.  That wasn’t their purpose at the time.  They never used the back door.  Long story short, we are stuck with it the way it is now.  As is, I’m buying a little at a time to build even the small layout and using up any used lumber I can get my hands on to build this.  We do what we can with the resources available.  Thank you very much for throwing out the idea.  All ideas are worthy of discussion!!  Certainly many Forum members build additions or whole buildings for layouts, just like Mike G is building onto his garage right now.

I have some other thoughts on what we covered last evening I’ll put in a separate post.

I'm back.  The stacked decks for the turnback loops in the upper left corner should work, a rise of 8", maybe 7" of space between them is good.  The benchwork for that section is the same size and shape as the section in the old plan for the higher town of Thomas.  The benchwork for the lower town that I already built is a mirror image of what is needed here.  Mounting it or casters and having it but up against the stationary shelf is working nicely.  Of course I have not put in any wiring yet, but that will be no problem to have a disconnect cable.  Locking the casters has worked well for construction, but I'll find a way to latch it to the stationary part at some time.  It is really easy to roll away from the wall to work behind, so a section 5 feet across is no problem when rolled out.

I like the yard on the flat in front of the canyon downgrade.  I am seeing that I am able to concentrate on either the front or back when running trains, so I don't notice the other, spoiling the mountain view.  The big curve at the right with the lower town of Parsons is where I would put it.  That will take some thinking.  I am thinking of leaving a narrower walkway for access along the 5 feet of wall from the door to the long wall.  Even so, seven feet at it's widest is a lot.  Too much to even have a narrow walkway behind it on the long wall.  It is too big to do the roll out thing, but I would like to utilize the space.  Maybe a lift up bridge allowing access into the center would work.  I'll draw something up later when I have a chance.

Thank you everyone!!

Hey Mark- Just saw your post and got caught up. That's great news! A least you haven't gotten too far on the build in the back room yet. Your wife is very special to be thinking of you and your obsess....umm... I mean hobby . She must have looked at what you built so far and realized that it is a tight space for o gauge.

I like the plans that Dave and John have sketched up for you too.

Bob

Thank you, Bob!  Yes, it is a rather tight space.  I have to be careful I don't bump anything when I am moving anything around!    I had a nice B&O switcher on the track just for a test run with temporary wiring, then set it aside.  The next time I picked it up, I saw some scratch marks on the cab roof.  I do not remember bumping it, but must have; the dog is too short to jump up at all and has bad knees just like Mum and me!    

I see this plan is now big enough that I need to buy the SCARM package to do anything.  The small room plan was right on the edge.  If I left any track sections unused on the plan, it would bark at me.  That's okay, it is well worth it.  Only good for one PC.  I'll put it on the home desktop right by the door in the photograph above.

I dug up some more photographs that are buried in the preceding 14 pages.  Here is the door to the outside from the "new" long room and the sliding glass door is in the "old" blue room, and another from the inside in January 2017.

Here is the rolling 5 foot wide section being built last winter.  This is what I said I need a mirror image of for the loops in the upper left.

Here it is rolled away from the wall.  Even with more weight on it now, it is Easy Peasy!!

Mark, I guess you could move that one to the new train room! and use the small room for projects for the layout!

Yes Mike!  I think that would work out a-okay!  

I made some more exact measurements and some adjustments.  The doorway at the top is actually 96" from the left hand wall.  I think we can live with the curves out in the 36" walkway.  I made adjustments in the lower left, getting rid of the S curves, and making a walkway next to the wall.  I can now reach that town by both sides, so it can be stationary.  The green yard does protrude out from the wall far enough that I wouldn't be able to reach the far tracks at the bottom.  Maybe removing a track from the yard would help.  I have an overlap of the track in the lower right, I haven't figured out how to cut and fit yet, nor adjusting the track heights.  Also, I lost the Capture feature, so here is a cut and paste and post this for comment.  I did include the new SCARM file. Thank you.

Mark, were you saying you can only use scarm on one device??

Mike, right now the licensed version of SCARM can only be run on a single computer. I believe Mixy is working on a way for registered users to run it on multiple computers.

Dave, Thank you for answering Mike's question.  I only saw the notice of one device on the upgrade page.  I didn't know anything about Mixy working on registering on multiple computers, although I do know he is working on a bunch of improvements all the time!

Thanks for the information Dave, I need to buy the updated version so I can work on the layout plan. I have a few things I want to change!

Would there be room enough to move the yard out more to the middle of the room and maybe have access to both sides of it as well as the tracks in back of the yard?  Maybe even having the yard angled toward the upper right corner somewhat if need be? Leaving enough room to still be able to access everything else, of course. Just a thought, I'm not much of a track designer...

Mark, given your comments, I made some changes:
-- I relocated and slightly reduced the size of the upper loop so it doesn't stick out into the walkway.
-- I moved the blue tracks so they are 4.5" from the purple tracks.
-- I then moved the green yard and removed 1 spur so it's 36" from the wall and 4.5" from the passing siding. With the purple track on an incline, you might be able to reach that track. If necessary, another spur can be removed from the yard. Only you know how far you can reach and if you're willing to use a stool if needed.
-- I fixed the elevation of the new spurs in the lower right. As a result of adding those, the grade for the purple track went up to 2.7%.
-- I changed those spurs slightly and added an O42 setup as an alternative. The way the #4 was configured, there wasn't enough room on the upper spur to hold a full car, so I removed the 6.2" straight. There wasn't any room to put something between the spurs anyway, so they might as well be close together to give you more room above them (where the O42 setup is).
-- I also exploded the room boarders a bit so the baseboard for the actual layout is more visible.

I have to say I hadn't planned on this being a viable design, I was just trying to show the space. However, I really like the extended run from loop-to-loop with both a town and a yard in between. I can also envision pulling a train counterclockwise through the upper loop through the tunnel, backing some empties onto the holding track, picking up the full cars from the mine, moving the empties to the mine and then heading back to town.

Anyway, see what you think.

rtr12 posted:

Would there be room enough to move the yard out more to the middle of the room and maybe have access to both sides of it as well as the tracks in back of the yard?  Maybe even having the yard angled toward the upper right corner somewhat if need be? Leaving enough room to still be able to access everything else, of course. Just a thought, I'm not much of a track designer...

Edit: Change the yard a little.

That was quick, Dave! That is exactly what I was trying to describe. I may do something like that on my expansion, if I ever get to it.  Also, remember I am prototypically challenged, so that never enters my thought process. 

RTR12, I just happened to have been working on Mark's design, so it only took  a minute to throw that together. It can probably go down a little more, but I thought I'd see what Mark says before trying to optimize it. It is a good solution to the reach problem.

Edit: Changed it a little and replaced the earlier photo.

RTR12, Thank you very much for the idea of putting the yard out on a peninsula!  It's an excellent solution to the reach problem!!  I had originally thought of a peninsula for the mainline, but then thought the curves out and back probably wouldn't fit and keep the wide aisle.  We need the 36" for moving things in and out the back door to the stairs and garage door on occasion.  I hadn't thought of putting the yard out on a peninsula, but you see folks doing it all the time.  I can be pretty dense at times.  Maybe that is why they are slowly putting me out to pasture at work!    BTW, I know from experience that when Dave has been working on a plan, he can whip up some changes in no time flat!!

The peninsula can make it so the mainline out and back tracks can be separated some more for some scenic effect!  I know what the prototype was(is) like, and I want to give the feel of it, knowing I can't even come close to replicating any part of it in this space in O gauge.  Trouble is, I look at a blank sheet of paper, oh excuse me, computer screen nowadays, and my mind is blank too! 

Dave, you are right about the lower right hand corner using the other switches.  Also, moving the upper right loops back works nicely.  I think the yard lead coming from more of the center like RTR suggested would be good.   Yes, I agree, you just threw it out there as a starting point, but I think you had a good feel for where I am coming from as we worked on this last year.  You know I'm not a guy who wants a bunch of concentric loops or a serpentine twisted upon itself.  I want to get in a bunch of those buildings, mountains, bridges, and the two branches of the Cheat River.

Oh, one more thing, I am thinking that there could be some grade from the top of the lower right loop where you started it before to a little before the new sidings, then pick it up again where you started it.  Of course, the prototype had a grade of 3.4% I believe it was, and I proved all my engines can pull plenty of cars up that grade.  Oh, I got a new FA-2 set and an almost NIB Protosound F3 set.  They look to be good pullers too.

Mark, if I understand correctly, it sounds like you might like the spurs in the lower right elevated a bit.

Dave, Yes, that is exactly it!!!  I looked up the elevation feature this afternoon, but didn't get it to work yet. 

Mark Boyce posted:

Dave, Yes, that is exactly it!!!  I looked up the elevation feature this afternoon, but didn't get it to work yet. 

As you can see, it's easier for me to color-code the track I want to elevate. There are 2 elevation features. One is the Height Shift in the Toolbox and the other is changing the beginning/ending track heights using the Track Heights and Numeric Heights Input buttons to create a grade/incline. If you get stuck on either one let me know and I'll try to help.

Dave, I was trying the  Track Heights and Numeric Heights Input buttons to create a grade/incline.  I’ll try it again tomorrow.  I’m watching Josh Gates look for King John’s lost crown treasure from the 13th century.

Thanks Mark! I am glad you liked the idea. I don't often have any ideas for track plans, but sometimes just get lucky...even a blind hog gets a piece of corn once in a while! You are in good (and speedy) hands with Dave manning the track planning station! And he likes doing it too!!  Good luck with your planning and layout. 

I have been fiddling with an expansion for my layout for a few years now and have nothing to show for it that I like. I hate that part of it, I would rather figure out wiring and stuff like that, which most folks seem to hate. I need to get on the ball, define a definite space, and then offer Dave a suitable bribe for some assistance on an interesting plan. 

rtr12 posted:

I need to get on the ball, define a definite space, and then offer Dave a suitable bribe for some assistance on an interesting plan. 

No bribe needed, but it does start with defining a space and I know that can be easier said than done too. I've gone through 6 iterations of different spaces in 3 different rooms myself, so I know it's not easy and things often change right in the middle, like it has for me and Mark.

Thanks Dave, I really appreciate the offer (w/o bribe). The first part was easy, but the addition not so much. I should have planned better up front, I think. Oh well, it's all a learning experience. Maybe I will make it someday!

Yes I know Dave has bounced from room to room and I have space that was not well planned for even normal walking from room to room, that goofy narrow door to my present train room.  We all have obstacles.  

I haven’t had time to even look at mine today.  Maybe get back to it tomorrow.

The obstacles (and required compromises) are the worst part of the hobby, right in there with layout planning, IMO.   

That is very true!  Layout planning can be exciting, but frustrating as well when you have to take into account all those obstacles.  The one thing not to do is to over analyze all of it and suffer from what I've seen called analysis paralysis.

I think I nailed down the area to use.  My wife would like to have an area for her sewing, that includes the shelf units along the brick wall.  I'm fine with that.  I made some basic changes that don't make much difference to the plan we last looked at.  It is still quite a bit more room than the 11' 6" x 11' 4" room with the big glass door.

She even brought up the idea that several of you have; could I run a train from the existing room into this bigger room?  Again, I would have to do it at about 73" high so I don't bump my head going through the doors.    Unless, I put in a lift out section about 6 feet long.