Okay, Mark, here's my latest version, see what you think. I don't know if I like the larger footprint of the O54 curves in the right, but there is more room for landscaping.
Mark:
Up to you....my thoughts and vision I'm getting from you are the canyon is in a rural more secluded setting. An ideal place in my mind for a rural portion is to eliminate the spurs at the right hand side of the drawing and just have a single main winding through there going over a bridge with some steep canyon walls or drop offs.
My other concern is that there is only one passing siding between the two reverses which limits your options if running two trains at once in opposite directions. Unfortunately, if you add a second passing track along the longest "back" wall in the drawing there are too many tracks again--although these would be one two different levels. Still, a second passing siding still would be a good idea to enhance operations.
I had another thought that would really add major complexity to this layout and probably way over complicate things. There are already two levels which pretty much is all main line.
How about adding a third level and have it strictly just hidden staging?
I can't envision your room. I don't know the ceiling height, but ideally if you sit in a chair with rolling casters to operate the hidden area. Each level would need to be at least 16 inches apart so there would be ready access--as the drawing is now the two levels are probably 6 to 7 inches over one another which is fine for a main line. The lowest level for staging ONLY would have to be 16 inches down below the main which probably means a too steep grade or a steep helix grade.
The overly steep grade or helix grade would in all likelihood not be an issue on this line because this railroad cannot support long trains. I'm envisioning maximum train length of ten cars--and those are "short" like 40 foot boxcars. One engine can make steep grades with 10 or less cars as I'm suggesting. This is not ideal. However, it may address your vision.
The very bottom level could sit at 30 inches about the floor. That is seated desk height. That means the next level would need to be 46 inches up--a little more would be better. There is room on this layout for a helix, however helixes are complicated to build and are much more difficult to maintain and access, which is always a concern. However, given this space, and wanting to project a scene in the Blackwater Canyon in a rural setting with small, small town sites, having a hidden staging area on a lower level where four (4) complete trains could be left on individual sidings might be the ideal. Maybe? An alternative to consider?
It would be easy to disguise a helix on this line because of the canyon setting. I don't know what your carpentry skills are, but this concept would take some real careful detailed planning to accomplish, but it would be awesome in the end! I don't know if you understand what I'm saying but if you look at the Glacier Line's most recent video you could see what I'm trying to convey.
I'm thinking two Ross 4-way turnouts that would be facing each other on opposite ends of the layout and the four tracks would travel the entire length of the longest straight section and curve 1/4 then reconnect--I'd probably have to draw it for you to understand what I'm conveying. What I'm suggesting would be a challenge. This lowest level would provide an area where a minimum of four complete trains could be sitting on the track at the ready at all times. This would eliminate the need for cassettes on the main line area freeing up more room for the second passing siding on the main.
Also, if I haven't already inundated you with a massive amount of complexity already a final thought for would be for broadening the curves on the main. If you would have your lowest level 48 inches off the floor you could sit in a rolling chair and roll under the layout to reach access holes so you could install, maintain and clean wide curvature relatively easily. I'm not certain but I'm thinking that if the two main line levels are just strictly main line with no spurs just a twisting turning climbing/descending--run through Blackwater Canyon you may be able to fit up to 72 diameter curves on the main allowing you to run anything in O scale. I admit that using 72s may jam up the space too much. Maybe? I'd have to draw it and really think about it.
How's that for way too much to think about? LOL
Mark Boyce posted:I ended up cutting short my comments last evening because our older daughter kept texting me about some repair questions at their fix-er-upper house that I need to go over today and take a look at. I couldn't keep my mind train on the right track
so I just signed off and posted a partial reply.
Seems like about every time I get on the OGR forum lately something like this happens to me. Sometimes it's a day or two before I get back to it. Then it's time to start over from square one, or I forget about it completely and end up going on my merry way. I keep getting further behind that way and miss a lot of stuff and then I'm off the track, derailed!
I think you are doing great with keeping focused on your track plan though. You know what you want and when to compromise and what will work and what won't!! If I could do that maybe my expansion would at least have a plan by now. 
I believe he's already nixed the idea of another passing siding on the incline because it's not true to the section he's modeling.
Dave: I'm not talking about making them inaccessible (duck-under)...I'm talking about hiding them from view. The lower level staging would/could be hidden behind fascia boards that are on hinges. One simple pulls the top of the fascia and it folds down out of the way so that tracks may be readily seen and accessed. While seated in a chair, one could easily see and reach the tracks.
Lord knows I'm NOT talking about a duck-under! LOL I'm talking about a roll-under--meaning person comfortably seated on a chair rolling themselves to an access opening--for maintenance/cleaning/fixing derailments ONLY--NO OPERATIONAL duck-unders at all. This is just-in-case for wider curvature. The trick is having the layout high enough for Mark to be seated in a rolling chair and gently roll himself under the layout. I've seen this done and it is brilliant! One guy even has lights under his layout and he flips one switch and its like the light of day under there. It's fabulous!
"Roll-Unders" are no problem unless the person starts piling obstacles in the path of access openings. :-)
LASTLY, Dave I love the drawings you do! I cannot believe how quickly you can manipulate produce the various versions of track arrangements! Fantastic work!
John, don't get me wrong, I wasn't criticizing the idea, I've seen what you are talking about and also thought it brilliant. Maybe Mark will be open to it, at this point I don't know. One concern I have though is access to the underside of the upper level and the yard for fixing wiring and other issues. I think the reason Mark wants roll-out storage is so he has room to get under there if he ever needs to.
As for the software, I'm not busy at the moment and I've really gotten used to how SCARM works. For me, layers and color-coding really speeds things up. It's no secret, the more you use it, the quicker you get. Thanks for the compliment. 
Hi folks! It has been a busy day for me, and I have looked over the comments since my last reply. Cassettes, passing siding, staging yard, helix, and I probably missed something. There are some real good thoughts there. All of them would work for someone and very innovative too. None of them are far fetched at all. How about I ponder on them, look up some information that came to mind reading the comments, and I will comment tomorrow. Maybe I will stir the pot some more!! 
Thank you everyone very much! 
Good morning. I will comment on a couple items right now.
Second passing siding - Yes for my prototype there were actually several passing sidings. The one on the plan right now is in exactly the right position at a relatively flt location just outside of Parsons. There are a couple others, one at a water tank just before the grade starts to go up. There is also one near the top of the grade and it is still on the hill running between 1% and 2 % grade in real life. I showed a spot on the plan that would stagger the passing sidings so they aren't right one above the other.
The 054 loop on the right - The table measures 60" wide, so the reach is 30" from either side. That works fine.
Dave, I like where the cassettes are if I would go that route.
Helix to the staging yard below. - That is a great idea certainly could be done. There are two things I need to think about. First, I have looked with interest at different articles and forum posts about building a helix. There are many ways to construct one of course. I am not sure I am up to the challenge. I would need to sift through many examples to find one I think I am capable of building.
The second is the yard itself. I think the only way to know if I think that idea would work for me is to mock it up full size. I will have to get two shelves of whatever, could be sheets of foam which I have, and position them on supports, could even be just cardboard boxes. If I make them at the heights and depths we have in mind, then I could roll a chair around and simulate reaching into the far track if I had to and also reaching up in case I need to fix a wire above.
I don't know when I would get time to come to a conclusion on either of these, so I think that part of the design needs to be put on hold until I have time to research. So for now, we could try fitting in a second passing siding, then I need to do some homework.
John, You mentioned somewhere about looking at something on your latest video. I was looking at your list of You-Tube videos, but don't know what you are referring to. Could you give me a date or better still a link to it?
Thank you!
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Mark,
First, I'm excited by your acquisition of more real estate and the new plans coming forth. You have the makings of a neat model railroad there!
I haven't participated in much of this discussion, but I will warn you about multiple levels and helixes. Make sure you have adequate space / clearance for these because none of us is getting younger or smaller. 
I had a lower level storage yard on Panhandle 1.0 that was built with a lot of "wishful thinking". I thought it was the most clever thing I had done in model railroading until I had to try using it. 
I'm not trying to throw cold water on these ideas, just advising you to think things through several times. And don't be afraid to abandon something that isn't working.
Best,
George
George, I just appreciate you following along. I have a couple other topics I have been following, but haven't had time to look at in the last couple days. My Inbox is loaded with updates from them that I haven't even looked at yet.
I understand what you mean about the helix and lower level staging yard. I do value your advice, because it is from experience. It is a big concern whether it will be a literal pain in the neck, back, etc if I am even able to build it.
Another concern that my wife brought up just since I wrote my last replay. She asked if we had to move to a single level home, whether I would build something that is too hard to take down and move. The possibility is very real since we both have knee problems. We have been told we need knee replacements but won't be able to get them until we retire. (I am wondering if that means insurance won't pay and wants to push it off to Medicare.) My knee isn't that bad yet, so I can envision a 4 year wait, but my wife's is far worse, and she is 3 1/2 years younger than me.
So, I have to keep in mind that whatever I build has to be built in such a way that it can be dismantled in sections to hopefully reuse. The helix and lower level make that more complicated for sure. I can envision taking the sceniced top off the helix and having the helix a separate unit, but two independent levels make it more complex to design, build, and take down.
You are so right that we aren't getting any younger, and it may be that the whole idea of a staging yard would be impractical. Cassettes are certainly easy to move to another house!
Thank you for your input!!
George, I agree with you. Personally, I don't get into switching out rolling stock all that much, but then I don't have much and don't intend to buy much. While the idea of a hidden yard is a great idea, I think building the helix will be problematic and not worth the effort. We haven't given much thought to where it would come out and I didn't take into account that the top level also needs clearance, so the actual height is more like 22" than 16". The logical place to put it is under the largest section of the layout on the right because that has the most access from 3 sides. in fact, if it goes there, it can be an oval and not a circle. That means more space for reduced grades.
To be honest though, I'm not even sure a helix is needed. Based in previous discussions, I didn't think Mark was open to the idea of a hidden yard, so I didn't bring it up again. Anyway, if you place it in the middle with the throat to the left, you can run around beneath the left loops and the follow the current grade around to the right side and come out somewhere in that loop. There would be access from both the front and the right side.
Here's a quick diagram of what that could look like.
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Thanks Mark. All I can tell you is that my own Hidden Storage Yard sat under the left side of the layout and was reached by a long, long, long (18') yard lead that ascended across the back of the layout to the steel mills on the right hand side. The lead was designed to be disguised by part of the backdrop (WHAT was I thinking???? 
.
It was a major PITA to build and practically impossible to operate. The yard had 5 switches, all difficult to reach, and all (predictably) had switch machine issues at some point in time. Murphy's Law - in full effect.
George
Mark, if the idea of moving is a real possibility, then I suggest you forget the hidden yard and live with the cassette idea. Most of this layout can be built in sections to make moving easier, but chances are slim that they'll fit the new space anyway. Plus, if you do have to move for health reasons, what are the chances that you'll even be able to rebuild the layout?
As for the knee replacements, my wife had hers done before she was eligible for Medicare, but I don't know what your insurance covers. We had TriCare with the Air Force and they covered all buy some small co-pays. Most doctors will try to put off knee replacements until you're well into your 60's because chances are they'll have to be replaced again. Either way it's something you need to discuss with your doctor. He/she should be able to tell you how much it will cost with your current insurance and advise you on what kind of supplement you'll need if you put it off until you're eligible for Medicare, I don't know if Medicare covers the full cost either.
Why does it need to be a helix? My hidden yard tracks will be fed by two lead tracks which also serve as the other half of the double reverse. Can't seem to post a photo from my phone but can do so later if there is interest.
Mark,
Expanding the Layout, have fun with you new territory!
PCRR/Dave
Mark:
I'm completely in agreement with Dave. It sound like you guys will be moving. Building a layout with that complexity, helix, hidden staging etc., would not be prudent. HOWEVER, if you are going to build a sectional layout, which sounds very reasonable and logical in your circumstances, better to PLAN from square 1. It's more work, effort and money to build in sections but very wise if you are moving. You may want to rethink the entire plan including putting all the track on one level. It's not as interesting but it would be a hell of a lot easier to move and reassemble.
tr18 posted:Why does it need to be a helix? My hidden yard tracks will be fed by two lead tracks which also serve as the other half of the double reverse. Can't seem to post a photo from my phone but can do so later if there is interest.
It doesn't, see my earlier diagram showing just the yard with a long lead to get from 0" up to 16".
Thank you everyone! Dave, my wife had one knee replaced two years ago. The surgeon said give it a year to heal, and then he would see about replacing the other. After one year he said wait another year. By this year, mine was giving me trouble, but not severe, so it seemed reasonable that by the time I retired (on Medicare) mine would be ready to do. However, also the what I call "health care war" in Western Pennsylvania had come into play. It is very complicated, but though we have the same insurance plan as before, things have changed. Then my wife went in for her annual appointment and he told her the same thing as he told me. Well I don't see how she will be able to get by for 7 years. He is an excellent surgeon and one of the nicest guys in the community. I suggested we get another opinion, but....
Anyway, baring some unseen accident or illness on my part, we would be moving to a single level for her benefit, not mine. So I can envision building a new layout with parts of a layout built here. I think we just stick with version J except find a place for the second siding.
I have tried it before, and I don't like switching either. I'm a railfan, wanting to watch the train travel from one location, through some interesting scenery, and on to another location. I switch some cars into a few sidings, but I find the constant switching to be boring. I have watched some guys at shows with switching layouts. I end up gravitating to the layouts that just have a nice selection of trains travelling along. The yard would have only be for train storage. I can do that with the cassette idea. Like you Dave, I don't have a desire to acquire more trains, just occasionally upgrade to something better and sell an older one. I am not a collector.
TR18, thank you for commenting. Yes, I have seen it done without a helix. I would be glad to see your photograph when you get the time.
Dave B. Thank you very much for the congratulations. Good to hear from you!!
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DoubleDAZ posted:tr18 posted:Why does it need to be a helix? My hidden yard tracks will be fed by two lead tracks which also serve as the other half of the double reverse. Can't seem to post a photo from my phone but can do so later if there is interest.
It doesn't, see my earlier diagram showing just the yard with a long lead to get from 0" up to 16".
Daz,
Sorry, didn't read back far enough. Your design looks real nice.
I figured you might have missed it, should have said that in my comment.
Mark, I hope things change on the knee issue for your wife. Jeanette suffered with pain for a lot of years, but once the injections no longer worked, enough was enough. Good luck.
I'll fiddle with the 2nd passing siding. Do you want just the switches level or do you want the siding section level with grades to and from it?
Thank you Dave. I think I recall you saying Jeanette had a bad time with her knees. The injections worked some for me so far. My wife Kim is getting them again at this time. I always say we are so much better off than our many friends who have cancer or hwo have already passed on due to cancer!
Just the switches level would be fine. Thank you!
Okay, Mark, here's the first version, sorry it took so long.
Please note that in order to fit a siding in, I had to restructure the lower loop so I could move it over. I also noticed the right side was crowding the edge, so I moved that in too. The result meant shortening the yard lead as well as the original passing siding. As you can see I added another spur in the yard for some extra storage. Whether or not you add it to your build is up to you.
Based in where you drew it, I had to put the upper switch for the new passing siding on the same level as the upper loop (8") because it's so close and the experts say not to start/end a grade at a switch. The lower switch has a 6" elevation. The grade down to it is 2.2% and the grade from it to the bottom is 2.7%. Changing the elevation to 5" changes the grades to 3.5% & 2.3% respectively (5.5" to 2.9% & 2.5%).
I guess the bottom line is that you can add a siding and I'm not sure what else needs to be done. We can fine tune things, but I think that's something you should do during construction, assuming this basic design works for you. Me? I pretty much like it. I think it's got a good balance of track to area and leaves room in the upper loop and the right side for buildings, etc. If you think the yard is too big, just don't add the 3rd spur.
So, what do you think?
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Dave, I think the compromises are reasonable. I always expect to have to make adjustments when building. I think it looks great, and we should just let it sit like this and make no more changes. Thank you very much!!
I agree, but if something comes up, I'm in.
That sounds great! Thank you very much!
I would like to suggest a small change in the lower right. It removes an "S" curve from the main and provides a lead to the small yard so the main is not fouled.
As usual Dave has done a good job.
Jan
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Jan, excellent catch! I knew there was something I didn't like about that section, but the "S" just didn't register.
Mark, here is the new color-coded photo and file. I changed the name yet again to separate it from all the others in my folder.
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Jan, that is an excellent catch! I didn’t take the time to pick it apart get S curves, etc. thank you!!!!
Dave, thank you for the updated file. You have been an excellent help!! Now I need to get on Mike’s topic and see if I can help!
After a day's reflection, I finally got around to defining the room boundaries and doors with a little more clarity. I also switched the two yard tracks on the yellow 8" elevation to the front of the layout for better access. Otherwise, I'm happy with it for now.
I did take delivery of two sheets of free plywood that a friend doesn't need, so I added it to my stock in the old blue room.
It would help if I added the drawing.
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Thank you Dave! Yes, I do remember knowing I was missing some connections. I did that last night, then quit to watch a movie. I forgot about it today.
Things are looking good there Mark! Dave sure has done a nice job for you! You know its nice to have people like Dave here. My last layout I had to pay someone to draw it up on Auto-Cad for me! Keep up the great work and will be watching for more!
Thank you, Mike! Yes I appreciate Dave’s work very much. I think we will be emptying the room over the summer and hopefully I can get something started after the weather turns bad.
Major development today!!
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Mark,
Is this the start of the land acquisition?
George
George, Yes the land acquisition closed, and we are now clearing the land to start construction.
