New Schemes&Ideas for Atlas

Atlas is doing another run of the MP15DC of the latest paint scheme for NS. It is a shame the they are not upgrading with ditch lights and cab air conditioner that go with them. Why would we want the newest paint scheme without the newest details? Not me.

Stephen

If Atlas would do the couplers and throw switchstand to add to their track. Count me IN  ! ! ! ! ! Stephen

Just my opinion but, I really believe you are beating a dead horse concerning those shelf couplers.

That's OK, CBQ'er kept plugging an SDL39 on the Atlas forum until they shut it down to make him stop.

I was going to refrain.  I think I still shall refrain, but it is really tempting.

       
       

Who's the horse expert here that says the horse is dead? Certainly not anyone in any postion of authority!

Stephen

 

Do I spy idiots with tunnel vision?

-A Pessimist sees a dark tunnel

-An Optimist sees light at the end of the tunnel

-A Realist sees a freight train

-The Train engineer sees 3 idiots standing on the rails

Uh- oh.  Shelf couplers are indeed a dead horse.  They are not happening. Period.  Self-proclaimed expert.  Prove me wrong!

Well I and others "beat that dead horse" long & hard in HO for years. Now 3 companies make shelf couplers & that tunnel showed NO light at the end of the tunnel. If you don't ask how are manufacturers to know what you want?

 

 

 

 

If more products don't become available to attract new modelers interests,O scale will continue to decline in popularity. There has to be incentive. I'm trying to make

o scale's future brighter not kill it. Modelers know that all modern freight have shelf couplers,it's a mandate on tank cars after 1975. Some of you modelers sound like the guys that said if man were meant to fly he'd have wings. Wonder why we have jumbo jets today if that were the case?

 

Just My Opinion.

Al Hummel

Al,

You make a very good point for this product. Why not start up a business and produce them yourself? Then you can make all the money these other manufacturers don't seem to think is out there for this product.

 

I model 1952, so I won't be one of your customers.

 

 

Thank you George.

I'd have developed the items I speak of long ago,but unfortunately like most of the population,my finances are against me,or this discussion would've been over a long time back.

I posted this again after reading Atlas was a sponsor here so I thought it would be a good time to put the "bug in their ear," so to speak,or I'd have never reposted here about the shelfs.

 

I understand most of O scale seems to be before my era of modeling,but O scale is facing a tough challenge being hit with increasing prices like all scales are,but it's being hit hardest because it's more expensive. Expense will get worse regardless of scale,but the smaller scales don't have the materials involved in their products so modelers can still survive. so there has to be great incentives to make new modelers as well as older modelers change over from other scales.

 

With modern era freight,so should come modern developments,or it doesn't look right. 1 need only watch modern trains to see most freight even from past eras carry shelf couplers. To ignore them is a shame.

The ground throws would be nice for O scale especially & given the size,I think they could be developed to work very close to the Prototypes. Unlike shelf couplers,these are in many eras of railroading.

 

Thank you for your kind input & happy railroading to you & all.

Al Hummel

Alan, et al,

It has been my experience that Atlas is not responsive to ideas that come from O Scalers.  I can site several important issues that Atlas has ignored which is why I buy as little from Atlas as I can.  

George made a good point and I don't think he was being mean, just realistic.  

Partnering is the rage these days so why not partner with an established, small, basement company that produces castings, etc for O Scale.  It would require cash input on your part but it would not be the first time a modeler put up his own cash to get a product he wanted. 

Just my $0.02,

Ed

Allan has approached all of the O Scale producers of such items, including Kadee and Protocraft, our two major coupler manufacturers.  They are tired of hearing from him, I think.  They are not going to do it.

 

There is only one reason Kadee won't do it - it is not commercially viable.  Protocraft, like most of us, is a hobby, and that hobby is late steam/early Diesel, so no go.

 

I think Allan is obsessed with this one little teenie weenie detail, and cannot get around the idea that nobody else is at all interested except NW.  It is interfering with his enjoyment of the hobby.

 

If I am wrong (as you know, that is often the case) then Allan and his friends could pool their money and get a master made.  A couple grand is an outside guess.  Then the mold is under $50, and Stevenson or Valley Brass could start popping them out in small quantities, just like the Protocraft coupler.  In the end, I could see $15/ pair, not including draft gear.  Make them the same shank as Protocraft, and buy Protocraft draft gear.

 

Opinion - why do I have to keep adding that?

Well, my opinion is that you have hit the nail squarely on the head!!!!

We have concurrence.

Potentially, a quorum.

I would like to see Atlas O make  some more demo schemes of the equipment they already made:

 

 

As I stated above: "Idiots with tunnel vision"!

Al - it amazes me that those who say nay are early era modelers.

It also amazes me the Proto craft and Kadee are brought up. Your post stated Atlas. Can they not read and comprehend?

Atlas does a lot of modern era cars so why not shelf couplers?

Atlas developed their own couplers even though there are several others couplers available. Stephen

 

Just my opinion, potentially, a quorum, my 2 cents, we have concurrence, Well, my opinion is that you have hit the nail squarely on the head!!!! ,  I model 1952, so I won't be one of your customers (cause I'm old school)., Period. Self-proclaimed expert. Prove me wrong!

I like to see Atlas do Auto racks!

Stephen

Yeah, Atlas developed their own couplers and they were terrible.  Eventually, they had to admit that and redesign them to be more Kadee-like.  Now if they could only admit their mistake with the coupler box mounting and non-standard screw spacing.

Seems we hit a nerve.

No, I model 1952 because I like the first generation diesels, not because I'm old school.

 

I grew up in the 70's but have no real desire to model that period. I think that my layout space would fill up too fast with 86' boxcars. To me it looks kind of funny to have an A-B-A set on F3's pulling 6 or 7 cars 86' boxcars. Your views of the world may be different. Enjoy them and have a nice day.

 

 

Al,

I was not trying to be mean about saying why not start a company and produce these yourself. If there are enough of you that want them but don't have the means for just one of you to fund the project then try getting a few of you together and pool your funds. If there are enough modelers that want them you will easily be able to come up with the start-up money. If not, well that is an answer also.

 

Maybe setting up a Kickstart project online is the modern way to fund a project like this. That way you can let all the modern modeler help fund the project. Let all of them speak with their wallets.

 

As I said before, if they don't that speaks volumes also. If they do fund the project and you produce a nice new product, than all of O scale will be better for it.

 

Go for it, you are the one that sees a the potential in this, make it happen.

 

Doesn't anybody pay attention to what is posted in the past? Here are my resin A/C units that I have available for diesel cabs. Two units per pack, one each for $10 post paid.

Tom Yorke, 210 Pitch Lake Ct, Roswell, GA 30076. They are available now...

And I've been waiting almost 40 years for SD39s.  Erik Stott will have them available in his second offering (if I live long enough).  I've been waiting likewise for GP39s.  Atlas and Athearn finally did them in HO in the past couple of years. 1/48th will not happen any time soon and that is just the way it is. 

 

Actually, I'd be as happy as a pig in **** if I could get decent dynamic brake sections for GP40s and 40-2s.  But no one even makes a decent GP40(-2) to scavenge them from.  People were bugging Atlas about those for years too.

 

It took a good size number of people 7 years + to get Atlas to just announce 53' well cars.  Atlas is not a coupler company.  They do what is necessary to sell cars and locomotives and IMHO the number of sales lost because of couplers is greater because they suck than if they are accurate anything.  And in either case is in the single digits percents. 

Shelf couplers would be very nice, if they were Kadee-compatible, if not actually made by Kadee.
Before that I'd like Atlas to fill a huge hole in 2-rail at least and do a decent GP38-2. ..... and a CF7, while they're about it...
... but somehow, I doubt it'll happen. As far as I can see (from about 5000 miles away) 3-rail is killing 2-rail off over on your side of The Pond, besides a perceived lack of interest in the 'modern' Era from say, the 1980's on. Here in the UK, there's many of us actively modelling the US scene, but only a relative few in O scale, due in part to a real lack of choice compared to HO. It was a real shame to read on here somewhere that Athearn will not get into O, as it sees it as just a Toy scale.
When I've exhibited my US O scale stuff, one question I'm always asked, to which I don't know the answer, is "Why is 3-rail so popular in the USA??"

Nostalgia.

Boy - talk about drift.  I don't even understand the last three posts.  But before that, it was intriguing:

 

Just my opinion, potentially, a quorum, my 2 cents, we have concurrence, Well, my opinion is that you have hit the nail squarely on the head!!!! ,  I model 1952, so I won't be one of your customers (cause I'm old school)., Period. Self-proclaimed expert. Prove me wrong!

 

So, since you didn't put any of that in quotes, we can assume that this is your feeling? We can prove you wrong with evidence.  Nobody is willing to manufacture shelf couplers.  Nobody.  The burden of proof here is on the proponents.  That means NW, Allan, and whoever else wants shelf couplers need to prove there really is a market, and that there really is some entity who wants to serve that market.  I would be willing to bet that Atlas no longer takes phone calls from these folks.  They are simply not interested.  Go ahead, prove me wrong!

Ed:

I know George wasn't being mean,I agree with him & you. I appreciate the positive inputs. Negative are always welcome too as that lets a person know which way the "scales are tipping." Kadee said they will be making a shelf coupler sooner than later if the interest continues& Kadee only makes products if money is involved meaning positive sales. Protocraft won't be making the shelfs. I'd have gone in on the project when I emailed Norm. This is the problem with his coupler:he has a FINE coupler,not the modern E syle,but I could make up for the slight difference. The coupler exists. I know nothing about the processes involved in making couplers,but to make add ons,meaning upper & lower shelfs,how expensive can that be? But he's set against it.The modeler that sold Norm the coupler would have the shelfs developed if it were still his coupler & has approached Norm many times about the idea,but still no go. No disrespect to Kadee,but I left their coupler type in HO for Sergent couplers,so naturally I want the same in O scale. I posted about the couplers with the hopes Atlas might move ahead with it,not to make anyone mad on this site.

 

Some other very good points were addressed on this site today,the 1st being Atlas makes it almost impossible to get their couplers off their freight cars!!! Why not make the couplers screw mounted from the outside of the box instead of the inside giving everyone less headaches? I never solved that problem of getting to the coupler either.

 

Another thing mentioned is 3rail overshadows 2rail,making it very difficult to get much done in 2rail,i.e.,the shelf couplers. No disrespect to 3railers,they do a fine job with their layouts,but if satisfied with the oversize couplers,I wouldn't bother with scale couplers if I were a manufacturer either,it's the ugly fact of making products to the heaviest demand area.

I had a 3rd thought I wanted to add to,but been up since 4:30 with no sleep in between so my poor old mind says it's past time to quit. Been moving things from my wife's house we sold at a loss,& moving it back to our house here. I can't eat past 6pm or get sick so I've ran for 3 days at a time with almost nothing to eat & that wears on you. 2 weeks in a row I've done this as my wife can help very little from being sick for about 5 weeks & they still don't know what's wrong!

Take care gentlemen.

Al Hummel

 

Yes,so true. I'm not trying to bash Atlas as none of us are,but Atlas takes a step forward & 2 backwards. Those mistakes can't be cheap.

The mistake of not making their locomotives so they can go 2or3rail like MTH is another blunder. I realize each company has to be careful of copyright infringement but this is costing Atlas dollars as well as the hobby shops that carry their products. When items set on shelfs unsold,that hurts the modeler,hobby dealer & Atlas. Any old farmer can understand the economics of this.

Al Hummel

I thought we were supposed to conduct ourselves as mature adults here for the betterment of O scale which is what I'm after.

Did you talk to Kadee? I have. If you read all the posts here,I'm not alone in my desires. If new incentives aren't made here,O scale will continue to go down,not saying shelf couplers will save it,but if a modeler coming from HO looks at O & the lack of product,he will think many times about coming to O.

I don't understand your strong opposition to new ideas? It seems to be a threat to you-what could it possibly hurt?

I'm glad Orville&Wilbur Wright didn't bend to such criticism.

Al Hummel

Al: I came from the HO side because more models were being offered than before. I must say Atlas coming into O scale is what did it for me. Now Sunset. Though I still have HO to fall back on, I find that when anyone tries to advance the hobby in O scale they are met with harsh, tunnel versioned, old school, downright obstinate people in the hobby as you see from some of the posters above. Sometimes it gets depressing in O scale with these attitudes that are not found as much in other scales. I never understood why people post on a subject that they are not interested in, don't model, or would not use in their time period. If everyone would notice that all except one - "LIKE"- on the post are posters who are positive posters. What does that say to the negative posters whom the shelf couplers are of no use to but bring negativism to the subject. If I didn't need the shelf couplers I would not post. The rest are just agitators.

Stephen

"O Scalers are like herding Cats!"

Thank you Steven very well said. I appreciate the moral support for me as well as all,though sadly some don't realize it.

Atlas in O scale is TREMENDOUS in their detail & 98% of what I have is their stock.

I hope they learn from their mistakes & move forward. If we modelers could get Atlas,MTH&Lionel to talk & work for the good of all modelers,then O would be aTRUELY FANTASTIC scale to be in. It is now,didn't mean criticism by that remark,just mean it would be a lot better with a brighter future.

I need shelf couplers because I'm modern era to.

I thought I could go through Prototcraft because they have all the legal processes taken care of,could get the product produced & get through all that,with me accepting the cost. He,Norm,wouldn't even answer my request& that's narrow minded & rude.

Since then my finances have really hit bad times&my HO has to fund my O scale. It cost me $26,000 in repairs to my wife's housewe sold, plus a loss in what she owed on it yet.

I have about everything in HO I need. If I go to O,I want it to be worth the fight ahead of me. I can't keep a reserve to fall back on in HO,it all has to be sold.

My email I think is on my profile,if not & you'd like to discuss this shelf coupler idea as well as others perhaps we can do it offline & by phone & hopefully get others to join us. Let me know if my email's not there.

Thanks again,

Al Hummel

Did you talk to Kadee? I have. If you read all the posts here,I'm not alone in my desires.

 

So if Kadee agreed to do it, you are home free, and I am wrong.  Good for you.  And while I have not read all posts, I was under the impression that maybe three posters are seriously interested in these couplers.  That may not be enough.

 

My comments are not meant as a desire to see O Scale not advance.  It would be great if more and better products keep appearing. - I cannot wait for additive metal components - I want Kadee to reproduce their HO trucks in O Scale.  One letter is appropriate.  Pestering is counter- productive.

 

I actually did contact Kadee once, to suggest metal couplers and plastic boxes.  They ignored me.  I did not try again.  Interestingly, a decade later, they decided to do it.  It had to be the result of a huge batch of letters and phone calls over the decade, and not from just three people.

bob2: Though 3 people that have posted wanting the shelf couplers, and there are those on the forum who are members and do not post at all. Atlas stated that the request on forums are a minority and what is produced are suggestions that they recieve from show and others meets. Stephen

That is all well and good but, how long did it take Atlas to "correct" the design of their previous O-Scale coupler? Even their attempt to convert 3-rail folks with the "Adjust-A-Coupler" concept, still had the poor quality metal coupler. Even today, the latest O-Scale coupler from Atlas has a far too oversize coupler bog with a much too stiff centering spring. No problem you say; just take the coupler box apart and replace the centering spring with the Kadee centering spring? Right!

If you put your faith in Atlas, by the time you get something useful in a coupler that you really want, your possible market will all be back to the mud.

 

You'd be better off with some small entrepreneur will to take a risk for something he wants as much as yourself.

NW - if that is true, why not do it that way, and skip the weekly shelf coupler threads?

 

I am with Hot - I do not think you want Atlas doing these.  You want lost-wax brass, Protocraft style.  That is doable.  But do not expect folks who do not want shelf couplers themselves to do it for you - it is time to dig in and make masters.

OK, I'm going out on a limb here. I don't think that Mr. Alan Hummel even has a layout, nor has any real intentions of accurately modeling "modern railroading". He seems to be on a crusade for shelf couplers, with total disregard for any and all detail specifics of truly modern railroad equipment in the U.S.A and Canada.

 

As bob2 is prone to state,,,,,,,my opinion!

This is too modern for my modeling but it would seem to be a good candidate for 3D printing. Make the master in 3D in individual parts, cast and assemble. Its possible just one piece might be needed and it could be adapted to a Kadee or San Juan Coupler. If I needed this that's the path I would take.