New to O Gauge - Layout Critique

I like all three variations, but I see one thing on all three that could use tweaking. Those dead end spurs are not very easy to reach. I would move them on plan three to the large empty space for better access. It would be a good location for some operating accessories.

All three versions look good from an operating perspective, with two independent loops and the ability to turn a train in either direction with reverse loops.

Hi Canes RR, Seeing that photo of the boy sitting at the trains, I would suggest you consider having a second level over part of the loops. That would give the trains, in his imagination, somewhere to go to and somewhere from which to return. Even being out-of-sight for a few seconds nourishes the imagination, in my opinion, for adults as well as children.

FrankM, Moon Township, USA

...and...P.S.

I'd have a good old time of making the most I could (I have had bridges on the flat main-level, too) of that under-bridge area (I like that a lot what you have planned there), such as:

FrankM

Thank you for the quick replies...I really appreciate you taking the time to look at my plans.

Elliot, I hear ya about the spurs...as I get into my next step of schematic layout of structures and how the railroad will function I'll keep that in mind as it will be relevant.

Frank...thank you for the pics and thoughts.  I totally agree on the importance of some sleight of hand/imagination especially with a small layout like this.  Far as I can figure out l can't get the trains to transition to a 2nd level without crazy grades (my understanding is not to go over 4%)...but I was thinking of an independent trolley line over the main line with a bi-level passenger station serving both.  Disappearing trains is a great idea...I originally shied away from tunnels because of track cleaning concerns but that would be a good way to add a level of scenery too...now that you have me thinking of it, I could do a tunnel in the back corner against the wall and leave it open in the back for service.  How do you guys handle track cleaning with tunnels?  Love the detailed modeling in the pics you sent...looking forward to that part of this as well.

the most interesting layouts avoid 45° & 90° curves.  unless you stick to classic tubular or classic Gargraves sectional track, track you can cut/ customize, good luck with that.

Canes RR posted:

Thank you for the quick replies...I really appreciate you taking the time to look at my plans....

Frank...thank you for the pics and thoughts.  I totally agree on the importance of some sleight of hand/imagination especially with a small layout like this.  Far as I can figure out l can't get the trains to transition to a 2nd level without crazy grades (my understanding is not to go over 4%....

Hi CansRR, When I first constructed the first version of my layout, I considered having graded tracks to get trains from one level to another. If I recall correctly,  somebody had advised that the ratio for such a connection between levels is 1 foot of graded horizontal track for every inch of vertical rise. Since my second level is a foot above the first (determined by the height of the tunnel portals), and the same is true for the distance the third level is above the second, I decided making long grades of track to have trains go from one level to the next, was not worth it, not for me, at least. So, the solution was simple: each level got its own separate tracks, with no connection of track among the levels .

The result is that my Second Level has 4 closed-loops that are for trains on that level; the Third Level has 1 train traveling its own closed-loop, with no connection via any track-grade to the second or first levels. I just, simply, did not want to dedicate that much real-estate to ramps.

Perhaps, my explaining my decision will offer you something to consider as you make your decisions. And hopefully, these two shots of part of the layout will afford you a further perspective on how the three levels have their trains operating separately, with no ramps connecting them.

FrankM

Hi,

How are you operating the trains? Do you have the new starter sets with the DCS Explorer?  

From your floor plan, it appears that you have room to shift your layout a foot toward the sliding glass doors,  That would give your son access to that back corner and the end of the spurs,  If you can see your way to move it away from the rear wall that would be great and really help in the building and scenicing.

Jan

Great pics Frank...my little man lives in Orlando, so with the travel back and forth with him every other weekend, UM football/baseball/basketball games, work, etc. it's could take us years to build the single level with the elevated trolley so will likely stick with that for now...but I love what you're saying about the 2nd level not having to connect to the 1st...so perhaps I can find a way to factor a 2nd level into the plan so that it makes sense for future expansion.

Carl, currently we're just using the transformer and wireless remote that the sets came with...we bought the sets a couple of years ago.  We'll need to upgrade for sure to run multiple trains.  The reason there are two trains running now is that one is the Lionel Polar Express and the other is either the MTH Norfolk Southern freight train or the Sante Fe passenger train.

Jan, I have those furniture mover/slider things on the bottom of each leg so we can easily pull the table out and push it back in when we work on it.

Moonson posted:

I would suggest you consider having a second level over part of the loops. That would give the trains, in his imagination, somewhere to go to and somewhere from which to return.... Even being out-of-sight for a few seconds nourishes the imagination, in my opinion, for adults as well as children.

FrankM, Moon Township, USA

I agree with FrankM that even a short tunnel, such as the four-footer on my 10’-by-5’ layout, adds great interest, especially to a small layout. It’s not just that a train is out of sight for a few seconds but that it is interesting to watch it pass through the portals entering and exiting the tunnel. But it’s important to integrate the tunnel into the terrain so that it doesn’t look artificial. First three photos show an overview of my four-foot tunnel, the east portal and the south portal.

OP Question

Canes RR posted:

.... Disappearing trains is a great idea...I originally shied away from tunnels because of track cleaning concerns but that would be a good way to add a level of scenery too...now that you have me thinking of it, I could do a tunnel in the back corner against the wall and leave it open in the back for service.  How do you guys handle track cleaning with tunnels?

My tunnel sits in a corner at the rear of the layout. The interior stone walls extend to all parts of the tunnel that are visible when looking into the tunnel from the portals. My solution for track cleaning was to cut an opening in the rear corner wall of the tunnel through which I can get my hand and arm into the center of the tunnel to clean the track using alcohol on a rag. I clean the track near the entrance and exit by reaching through the portals. The entire tunnel and hillside are a single structure that can be lifted off the layout if necessary, although I rarely do that. The last two photos show the interior of the tunnel as viewed through the rear opening. The rear wall helps to support the hillside.

MELGAR

Thank you Melgar...looks like you did a lot with a 5'x10' layout...inspiring as we delve into our small layout.  Do you happen to have a plan of your layout that you'd be willing to share?  What radius curves do you have going into your corner tunnel?  You and Frank have definitely inspired me to try and include a tunnel in our layout.

Canes RR posted:

Thank you Melgar...looks like you did a lot with a 5'x10' layout...inspiring as we delve into our small layout.  Do you happen to have a plan of your layout that you'd be willing to share?  What radius curves do you have going into your corner tunnel?  You and Frank have definitely inspired me to try and include a tunnel in our layout.

The track is just an oval. The curves are Atlas O-54 at each end with five feet of straight track along each side. There are two O-54 switches at the end opposite the tunnel but they just go to the edge of the layout to provide for possible expansion...

MELGAR

Got it...I'm currently showing O31 curves...perhaps I should try to get it to work with O42 at the back corner to work better with a tunnel...although I guess if I keep it open in the back for service maybe it doesn't matter?

You need to consider exactly where the tunnel portals will be located. It's better to have them on a straight section of track to avoid clearance issues on a curve. I used a Scenic Express product for the East Portal because the soft material (urethane) allowed me to widen the opening slightly to 5-1/8 inches so that my scale-sized engines and passengers cars had clearance on the O-54 curve. I used an MTH plastic portal for the South Portal which has a 4-1/4 inch opening and is placed slightly beyond the end of the curve and therefore did not require as wide an opening. A Scenic Express portal (9-1/4 inch width) would have hung over the rear edge of the layout. The MTH portal (7-1/2 inch width) did not. And I needed to accommodate only a single track. I don't know what you are planning. Some people carve their portals out of (pink or blue) foam and in that case you can make whatever sizing you need. You can also purchase double-track portals from Scenic Express. I suggest that you get more than one type of portal and experiment with location, track radius and track spacing by checking actual clearances on the layout using your largest cars and engines before committing to the build.

MELGAR

The portals will be located on straights or at the end of straights before the turn begins...here I looked at having two runs going thru tunnels on different levels.  I'm sure there wil be some trial and error involved in this.  I did a 2nd version using 42" curves on the outside perimeter line but not sure that's needed.

That looks like a good way to do it - using four single portals.

MELGAR

Will you be able to walk all the way around this layout? If not, you may have trouble reaching some of the spots for maintenance or re-railing de-railed trains. 

As a thought, if you design some switching into the layout, The operating interest and challenge of this particulaar layout may last longer.    A fellow named John Armstrong wrote a lot of books on track planning for operation.    Most of his published plans are quite large, and not applicable, but his concepts and ideas on operations translate very well into the smallest of layouts.

...and here are a few shots of tunnel portals in situ, to speak to your imagination...FrankM

Thanks for the reply, Canes RR. I worked on the second plan the posted and another concept, until I realized that the table was built.

I took that plan and tried to stretch out the runs for less herky-jerky movement and create more space for some scenic items. The plan ticks all your boxes except for the siding. I have attached an alternate plan that extends the left side less than a foot and creates space for a siding when you want it. I could figure out how to solve the reach issue in the front for little man, but most of the switches are in reach.

Here is my modification of your plan. 

Just right-click on the SCARM files and save them to your computer. Then, you can work with them.

Have fun! It is a great way to spend time with the boy. Let him help when you can.

Thank you so much Carl...very much appreciated.  It happens that I was working on the same version today...it's my son's favorite version.  I hadn't yet figured out how to clean up some of the runs...if what you did where the bridges cross the "water" really works that would be great...tomorrow I'll try to incorporate that into some of the things I was doing today and see how it works out.

Thanks again!

Canes RR posted:

Thank you so much Carl...very much appreciated.  It happens that I was working on the same version today...it's my son's favorite version.  I hadn't yet figured out how to clean up some of the runs...if what you did where the bridges cross the "water" really works that would be great...tomorrow I'll try to incorporate that into some of the things I was doing today and see how it works out.

Thanks again!

I was thinking that a block could be attached to the each table side frame and a piece of 1/2 ply could be cut to support the over the water crossing. I would place the transformer/controls on the left side facing the table. 

There is a train simulator feature in SCARM. It really helps test the "play value" of a track plan. This one has some good routes. 

Is your Polar Express the LionChief version? If yes, that would permit you to run both of the trains simultaneously off of constant track power using the MTH supply. Then, there would be no need for electrically isolating the two loops.

I would put something like a Lionel 317 bridge under the track on the table in the back. I reverse painted 4 mil vinyl for the water and placed it under the bridge. Then, you don't have to elevate any track.

If you want to elevate, here is a version showing a bridge at 2.5" high at the rear. it would take almost half a set of the MTH 40-1113

Plasticville Station, Lionel Diner, 317 bridge, some trees  

File attached

Late to the table, your reverse loops set the limit on length. I don't have software to know how possible this may be with the 90° & curve from switches, but this does add a little length.

I played with Carl's plan to keep it in the defined table, and here's what I got.

Jan

You guys are amazing spending your time to help like this!  I'll be trying to find time to incorporate your suggestions between today and tomorrow...driving to Orlando tomorrow night to pick up my little man and bring him down for some baseball this weekend.  Very excited to show him all of the layout possibilities for him to choose from...I think he's going to be thrilled.

I'm curious about the MTH trestle set...I went to the link you sent Carl...it says they're 4.7% grade.  The guys at Ready To Roll were advising me to not go over 4% and preferably even less if possible.  Some of the grading I'm looking at is on curves where I assume the grade should be a little less than on the straights?  We'll likely use trestles in some areas and Woodland Scenics stuff in others with an average grade of 4%...I also assume that transitions at the top and bottom are necessary to avoid bottoming out.

Thanks again everyone...looking forward to progressing with this and continued interaction on this forum...hopefully some day I can be as helpful to someone as you all have been to me.

Didn't realize that the reverse loop was off the edge of the table.  The removal of the 3 4.25 straights fixed the problem.

Jan

I recommend trying to keep 10-12" spacing between tracks.  If you want to add operating or animated accessories, you're going to need a bigger footprint for those items.

Also something to consider is keeping all track within arm's reach (about 3') especially switches.

Good luck

I see your point Garrett about the room those things take up...perhaps we can at least squeeze in the Lionel Gantry Crane and a freight dock...the crane can straddle one of the siding tracks...I suspect there will be some trial and error with the sidings and what can fit and how it operates.

I took what Jan and Carl worked for me and used some of what I was working on and came up with these.  I think it's getting there...now I'm trying to lay in some buildings to get a sense of scale in terms of how much room is left...probably squeezed in about as much track as we're going to get in here.

At the end of the main road would be the passenger station...maybe two levels if I can get the elevated trolley line in there that I'd like to do.

be careful! Don't make the build more complex. The result needed is a railroad that is up and running. Little guys get bored when the trains aren't running. keep the spending down, too. You will grow out of this layout.

The latest version looks good. Keep your focus on scenic items now. 

You need an uncoupler track at the start of the spur(s).

Select all the track between the switches of the smallest reverse loop. Right-click the highlighted track and select "length of selected track" That will give you the length of the longest train that can run everywhere.

Have you tried the simulator? It is under the Extensions heading. Easy to get it working. 

I think we're in pretty good shape to start laying out with real track and run some trains!  We already have a bunch of track so just need 4 more switches and some of the straight track so we can lay it out and see if there are any issues, tweak some things, get a better feel for how much room there is for scenery/accessories, etc...grading, tunnels, etc. can be down the road.

Perhaps a stop at Ready to Roll will be in order this trip.

I just downloaded the simulator thing...hoping to find time to look at that with my son this weekend.

Thank you again everyone for all of your input and help!!!  Really, sincerely appreciate all of you!

Hey guys!  Can't believe how much time has gone by since I've been on here...my apologies, especially after all of the help you all offered.  We've made some progress...and I've managed to keep trains running during most of the construction so little man can always run trains.  I ended up biting the bullet and working with Sievers to add a 12" cantilevered addition...Christian wanted to add another siding to "park" his trains so that got us there.  This weekend we added grading around the perimeter loop...3% gets us up 3 1/2" allowing room for cars to enter our town under what will be a bridge on the end there where the opening is.  Long way to go but we're getting there...need to spend some time tweaking the connections now...the MTH Realtrax has some questionable connections...we have 6 power feeds soldered directly to the track so getting really good power everywhere but the connections aren't smooth in a lot of places causing trains to "jump" a bit.

We're set with the DCS system now and everything is cleanly wired under the table.

One other thing I wanted to comment on...being that we live in a condo with neighbors all around, below and above us, I was concerned about noise that many have posted about with Realtrax and FastTrack...we started with 1/2" plywood and 1/2" homasote board which worked pretty well but could still hear the "drumming" sound others have mentioned.  Then we put 2" of foam board on top of that...now all unwanted noise is gone completely so really happy with that.

Time to start carving out landscape features in the near future and add bridges, etc...we're considering carving out a small quarry hole/scene in the area next to the sidings...then rock "walls" along the grading...the quarry as well as the water where the 2 bridges cross the triangular area will be the landscape environment that the layout will revolve around.  Buildings will start coming soon...we really like the Woodland Scenics Theater which will be a focal point of the little town...and Christian wants tiki huts over the water...he's been looking at modeling material and is pretty excited about building his own.