New to S-Scale -- lots of questions

I sugest you first invest in Gilbert American Flyer as a start.  It can easily be purchased off ebay or at toy train shows and will cost you very little to experiment with in terms of your kid's interest.  It is simple and easy to run from a child's perspective.  If they break it little is lost. 

Also non scale wheels are easier for them to handle in terms of placing them on the tracks.  Scale stuff is also delecate and more expensive.

Gilbert Flyer track is about a dollar a section and a switch $20.  Roadbed S track is many time a dollar and a Lionel S switch is almost $100.

If the kids really like the hobby then you can upgrade and know that your investment is worth it. 

Welcome to the S Scale forum.

Well, your questions would have been a lot easier to answer about 3-4 years ago.  S has undergone some turmoil over the past few years, due mostly to what can politely be described as "outside forces" beyond the control of the manufacturers.

You might want to look over the thread that's in the top section of the forum:

https://ogrforum.com/t...questions-on-s-scale

But, I'll try to give a semi-detailed answer by manufacturer.

American Models:

Locomotives are available AC w/Flyer compatible wheels and couplers, DC w/Flyer compatible wheels and couplers and DC with scale wheels.  AM has a scale "snap lock" dummy coupler with the scale DC units.  Some have  been also having Kadee couplers included.  It's up to the modeler to install them.

If you want sound, the AC is the way to go, but the AM sound systems are very basic diesel sounds with horn and bell.  Steam sounds are whistle and bell, whith chuffing supplied by the smoke unit piston ala American Flyer.

AM has track similar to Atlas HO snap-track.  There is no molded ballast.  It will hold together on a hard surface like plywood or hardwood floor, but could be a problem on a carpet.

Lionel/American Flyer:

Things got interesting with American Flyer over the past year.  With the introduction of the scale SD70ACe's, these locomotives will run using conventional AC, Lionel's TMCC/Legacy operating system, DCC and conventional DC.  The SD70's also have full sound, access to the sounds depends on which control system is used.  It's all internal to the locomotive and dependent on the code on the electronic boards. Earlier scale locomotives like the first run U33C's are AC or TMCC/Legacy only.

As I recall, all following Legacy equipped American Flyer will come fully coded for operation with any of the above mentioned systems. 

Lionel hasn't quite settled on the matter of scale wheels, yet.  It seems to change from catalog to catalog.  The new GE units come with traditional Flyer wheels, while scale wheels are supposed to be offered separately.

To further add to the confusion, Lionel's cataloged three steam sets with a 2-8-4 that will be conventional AC: Polar Express, C&O Passenger Set and Nickle Plate Road freight set.  No price has been given yet.

Lionel's S FasTrack is currently only available with straights and 20" radius curves.  Turnouts are coming.

MTH:

The great unknown.  Unit something actually shows up, the only information we have is the MTH catalog.

MTH recently purchased the S-Helper Service tooling and this is what the S Scale line will be based on for now.  MTH is in the process of reworking the SHS tools to suit their manufacturing technique.  As you've noted, nothing from MTH is available yet. 

The F3 diesels are supposed to come equipped with DCS, which will run on AC, DCC and DCS.  I'm not sure about DC.  Scale wheels are also supposed to be included with the F3's.

Under S-Helper Service, freight cars came with Flyer compatible wheels and couplers installed and a set of scale wheels were included with each car.  It was left to the purchaser to buy his own Kadee or other couplers.

MTH freight cars will come with Flyer compatible wheels and couplers.  Scale wheelsets will be available separately. 

If there are no changes to the S-Trax system it should be a reliable system, but once again, we won't know until it shows up.

Finally:

I wish I could point to something and tell you "Yeah, that should get you going," but to be honest, the availability isn't there right now.

If you're still with us, I would suggest sticking with the larger flanges and couplers compatible with American Flyer and AC power for starters.  That should give you the widest choice and most flexibility of what's available right now.  And unless you know of someone with a cache of old S-Helper Service S-Trax, look to Lionel's S FasTrack for availability.

Rusty

"If you're still with us, I would suggest sticking with the larger flanges and couplers compatible with American Flyer and AC power for starters.  That should give you the widest choice and most flexibility of what's available right now.  And unless you know of someone with a cache of old S-Helper Service S-Trax, look to Lionel's S FasTrack for availability."

I agree with Rusty's quote above.

For a layout that can be quickly reconfigured and run on carpet or a hard surface the molded roadbed track from either Lionel (American Flyer Fastrack) or the now out of business S-Helper-Service S-Trax (available on Ebay auctions frequently) is the way to go.

MTH's 2013 S gauge (they bought out S-Helper) catalog show's it intends to reproduce all the S-Helper line of track. Their delivery schedule shows it should show up later this year but don't hold your breath.

I personally use the Lionel AF Fastrack and it is great. Lionel's 2013 catalog shows new additions to the line but again when it will actually arrive is anyone's guess.

As to the rolling stock and engines... to avoid beginners frustration with touchy scale wheelsets start out with the large flange wheels commonly known as "hi-rail".

They are designed to stay on the rails even if you use the original American Flyer tubular track...not easily used on carpet.

Engine choices have improved dramatically as shown in the 2013 catalogs from Lionel and MTH and one can only be held back by their pocketbook limitations.

The operating lights, sounds, smoke and remote control options for this new breed of engines is astounding and you will enjoy them.

MTH and Lionel have differing remote control operating systems each with their own  advantages but all of the engines can be operated "conventionally" i.e. with the use of an AC transformer although not all of the engines capabilities would be available to the operator.

Do a little research, examine the catalogs (Lionel American Flyer choices go back quite a few years) and decide what type of railroad you want to enjoy.

Stick with S gauge...you won't be disappointed!

Good Luck!

Some clarification needed here.  Checked Charlie Ro's price list & he has the new Flyer powered remote switch for $69.95.  A manual version of the switch will be out soon, Ro priced at $34.95.

Thanks for the quick replies guys.   All of the above is really helpful.  S scale seems to be on the  cusp of some really great offerings by the manufacturers, but until more physical product is actually availble it's still rather frustrating.

Based on what you all recommend, it sounds like an AC powered set-up with Flyer based wheels and couplers will be the best initial setup.  As for  track, since we plan to use this on a variety of surfaces including carpet, roadbed from either Lionel or MTH will be best (Lionel being the safer bet today). 

The Lionel Nickel Plate Freight set would be a great start, but it's still not priced and release date is TBD.

One question that remains for me is can you mix rolling stock with hi-rail and scale wheels (assuming all have Flyer compatible couplers)?  Or won't things line up properly?  The reason I ask is I don't care for much of the rolling stock currently being offered by Lionel or to be offered by MTH.   American Models appears to have all the rolling stock one could need or want.   Since  there is no price difference between scale and flyer wheels I'm wondering if it's worth it to buy the scale up front.   I still plan on getting some basic used hi-rail flyer cas as well.

I'll have to admit it is tough to walk through a LHS and see all the O gauge stets.   It's so tempting to just grab a RTR O gauge box and be off and running, but  I think I'd be kicking myself in the  long run for not putting  the extra time and effort to put together an S scale setup -- it's the perfect combination of size and detail.  

Banjoflyer, despite my frustrations with the current offerings, I'm going to follow  your advice and stick with S.  I know I won't be disappointed!

You have posed an interesting scenario which causes me to ask some questions before offering some suggestions. 

First, how old are your kids? 

Second, do they have a track record of considerable personal interest in trains?  Or is this Dad's desire more than theirs?   Are they really screaming for a train set?

Third, if the end goal is S "scale", but the goal for the next few years is S "toys", are you prepared to scrap (or sell) a bunch of stuff in order to make the conversion later when the kids are older? 

Note that steam engines and many diesels and many cars -- both freight and passenger -- cannot be converted to scale from a toy-like beginning.  Converting from "toy" to "scale" later is potentially a major proposition.  Not impossible, but you will need to be very careful about what you purchase now so that conversion is easy when the time comes.  Buy all the needed conversion parts now since they may not be available later.  Be careful to avoid that which cannot be easily converted later.  This will limit your product choices considerably.

One suggestion:  Do not attempt to operate American Flyer "toys" simultaneously with S "scale" equipment on the same layout.  That is a plan for endless frustration involving a multitude of options for track, couplers and wheels.  Pick one or the other and stick with your choice.   Gasoline and water do not mix.

One final thought:  Purchase some used AF toys on eBay for the kids now.  Let them have fun at little expense.  If the hobby "sticks" with them, worry about scale later.  Sell off the AF and move into the scale region of S when the time is right.  If they ultimately prefer video games, sports, girls, etc., not much is lost financially speaking.

Or......buy AF for the kids AND buy scale for yourself now.  Build a fixed layout for yourself and let the kids use the floor for their layout.  Let the kids operate your scale trains from time to time under careful supervision.  Kids locos run on AC (Gilbert era) and your locos run on DCC.  As the kids grow up, their old AF equipment will be carefully packed away for use by their children 20 years down the road.  It will become a family treasure up in the attic.

Regardless of what you decide, make it enjoyable for everyone.

For a group dedicated to the scale region of S, you might try asking a few questions on the conversational forum located at  http://sscale.org/ 

Good luck....Ed Loizeaux

I have also heard from a trusted Flyer enthusiast that the low rail height Lionel S Fasttrack does not like some of the tall-flanged wheels on classic Flyer equipment.  Others have said that is not true, so I don't know the true story.   Just be aware that it is in question.

>> One question that remains for me is can you mix rolling stock with hi-rail and scale wheels (assuming all have Flyer compatible couplers)?

With enough time, money, energy, analysis, etc., anything is possible.  I do not understand why you would consider cars with scale wheels and AF couplers.  If you want maximum realism, go scale all the way.  If you want easy-to-use rugged toys, then go AF all the way.  High-rail is an in-between region where anything and everything is possible and you can find a wide range of alternatives for wheels, couplers, track, power sources, etc.  It is sort of like an unregulated industry without standards.  Everyone simply does what they like to do without too much concern for standardization.  Sort of like Pakistan's ungoverned tribal regions.

>> Or won't things line up properly? 

The track and wheel standards for scale and high-rail and AF are different from each other.  Back to the gas and water analogy.  But with modifications and creativity, they can be made to work together -- except at the switches which are problematic at best and impossible at worst.  There are switches that can accommodate both, but their appearance is terrible.  It becomes an endless trade-off between working together or looking realistic.  Neither side of the equation will work at it's optimum point.  Having both simultaneously is extremely difficult -- probably impossible.

>> The reason I ask is I don't care for much of the rolling stock currently being offered by Lionel or to be offered by MTH.   American Models appears to have all the rolling stock one could need or want.

If American Models has everything you will ever want, then you are in a good place.  Buy it without concern and buy BOTH the high-rail (aka AF-compatible) wheels and scale wheels at the same time.  That way you can convert any time you wish in the future without concern for availability of conversion parts.  Just do not buy anything from anyone that is not specifically intended to be converted to scale.  You would just be buying a headache for any future conversion plans.

>> Since  there is no price difference between scale and flyer wheels I'm wondering if it's worth it to buy the scale up front.   I still plan on getting some basic used hi-rail flyer cars as well.

My advice is to not mix operating scale and high-rail cars/locos on the same track system.  Pick one or the other and stick with it.  If you are confused now, it will only get worse as you get deeper into the hobby.  Scale is for adults.  Gilbert AF is for kids.  And high-rail is for those who are in-between (or something like that).  Apologies for anyone who is offended by that statement.

Good luck...Ed Loizeaux

>> I have also heard from a trusted Flyer enthusiast that the low rail height Lionel S Fasttrack does not like some of the tall-flanged wheels on classic Flyer equipment.  Others have said that is not true, so I don't know the true story.   Just be aware that it is in question.

It is true that Gilbert-era AF trains did come with different sizes of wheel flanges.  Some were taller and some were less tall.  It all worked on original tubular AF track, but the tall-flanged wheels will not operate well on the newer more realistic smaller-rail-sized track.  The tall flanges bump along over the ties.  SHS track was able to accommodate both, but is no longer in production.  MTH will presumably be introducing it some day, but there is no way to tell if it will be exactly the same as the original SHS track.

Ed, thanks for the detailed reply and suggestions.

 <<First, how old are your kids? >>

Kids are 5 and 4.  

<<Second, do they have a track record of considerable personal interest in trains?  Or is this Dad's desire more than theirs?   Are they really screaming for a train set?>>

The kids have had a Brio-based trainset for the last three years and played with it a ton.   We live less than 1/2 a mile from a busy freight line and the kids love standing on the bridge watching the trains roar by underneath.  Three weeks ago we went to the National Railroad Museum in Green Bay.   While they loved climbing in and around all the equipment, what really caught their attention was the model train set that was running in the main building (not sure if it was O or S -- hard to get a perspective on size when you are standing next to a Big Boy ).  Since that trip they've been asking for their  own electric train set.  I've never had trains before, but was heavily into 1/64 scale slot cars growing up (have over 100 boxed away).

<<Third, if the end goal is S "scale", but the goal for the next few years is S "toys", are you prepared to scrap (or sell) a bunch of stuff in order to make the conversion later when the kids are older? >>

That's been my dilemma.  Part of me  wants to buy only once, but perhaps that's what's adding to the confusion and making this more difficult.

I will definitely keep S-gauge and S-scale separate.  Compatibility problems will only lead to frustrations for all of us.

I'm a bit nervous in buying  AF on ebay since I don't know what to look for and I really think the roadbed track will be better for use on carpet.  If I go the AF route, I'd opt for modern roadbed track.

So here are the options that I'm considering:

1.  Nickel Plate Road set from Lionel  (hoping this would be available  in time for Christmas 2013).   

http://www.lionel.com/products/finder/ProductDetail.cfm?ProductNumber=6-49633&CatalogUID=5A30449C-A36D-F833-F4BB589DFBF22831&PageID=2110

2.   American Models Milwaukee Road Steam Engine (i'd see if they would allow me to just by the locomotive and then add some freight cars) or one of their diesel models.   I'd supplement this with Lionel Fastrack and a AC power supply.

http://americanmodels.com/locos/4-6-2.chippewa.phtml

http://americanmodels.com/locos/s-12.html  IL central

http://americanmodels.com/locos/fp7.dx.html  Rock Island

3.  Vintage AF locos and rolling stock with modern roadbed track.

The American Models Pacific would be a good choice for a basic "first locomotive."  It is a robust locomotive (although the two classification lights on the smokebox front are a little fragile) that runs very well.  Runs smooth like a diesel, because all the drivers are geared and the side rods are just along for the ride. 

When the AM Pacific's first came out, we ran one for six hours straight at an open house with no trouble.

It has smoke, although not like the fog machines of O Gauge, and a "choo-choo" sound like traditional Flyer.  The AC version also has a whistle and bell sound.

Rusty

For youngsters in the 4 to 5 year old range, it is very hard to beat traditional Gilbert Flyer and, by extension, some of the newer traditional style Lionel Flyer that is available. The trains are rugged, built for young hands and coordination, and what a lot of us started out with.

Although American Models equipment is excellent to graduate into in a few years, one might have some concern about its durability in the hands of otherwise careful youngsters. If you choose the hi-rail route, one can seemlessly transition into AM in a few years. In any case, you might wish to ascertain what the young ones will be comfortable with and you may elect to buy some more advanced trains for yourself.

A good site (on line) to check out what is available and its pricing is Portlines Hobbies (Doug Peck at www.portlines.com. This web site is extensive and they have on hand American Models and (some) SHS track, Gilbert track and Rick Johnson rubber road bed, used Gilbert Flyer, a good selection of new "traditional style" Lionel Flyer (e.g., a 49618 NYC Dockside starter set),  American Models (rolling stock and some engines) and a limited supply of SHS rolling stock, building kits, Plasticville, an extensive parts selection, etc. There are other dealers of high merit to approach, as well, given what your geography might be, but Portlines is a good place to scope out S gauge on line.

Welcome and have fun!

Bob Bubeck

Nothing like a support group. There are two S gauge clubs that serve the Wisconsin area. You can go to meetings, see first hand what the trains are all about. Get live advice. They do have family social functions as well. Here are links to State Line and Badgerland S Gauger's websites.

http://state-linesgaugers.org/

http://www.trainweb.org/bsg/