New Union Pacific VISION LINE Challenger - Help

Yours is not the first post about this issue but since you have heat and fan rotation, and Lionel said it checked out good, I suspect the problem should be easy to diagnose.

Do you detect any warm air coming out of the dynamo? Blowing down the dynamo outlet or giving it a quick shot of compressed air should clear any smoke fluid that is blocking it. Do you see smoke coming from this smoke unit anywhere else, such as under the boiler shell or the injector outlet? If not, that suggests to me that the outlet has got blocked.

Bear in mind that the funnel assembly that connects the outlet to the smoke unit in the Challengers is fairly complicated. I believe that this is the part used in the original and current VL Challengers:

Elsewhere on this Forum someone posted advice they were given by a Lionel technical person that when refilling this smoke unit, it was best to tilt the engine forward to get the fluid to flow to the opening into the smoke unit that is under this assembly.

Thank you for the help. I really really hope its something simple like a blocked tube. I will try blowing in the outlet tube to see if that fixes the problem. My other concern I forgot to mention is when I put the funnel down the intake tube and apply the 10 drops of smoke fluid I notice smoke fluid seeps out between the boiler and the walk plate. I see no smoke coming out anywhere which I thought was strange. 

Jason Cvitanich posted:

Thank you for the help. I really really hope its something simple like a blocked tube. I will try blowing in the outlet tube to see if that fixes the problem. My other concern I forgot to mention is when I put the funnel down the intake tube and apply the 10 drops of smoke fluid I notice smoke fluid seeps out between the boiler and the walk plate. I see no smoke coming out anywhere which I thought was strange. 

Ah, well all that tells you something that's probably important - subject to the point I make in the last paragraph below.  I think it's either that fluid is not running into the smoke unit itself but seeping out somewhere, or that the unit is already overfilled with fluid - although in that case it would still have to seep out somewhere. In either case you would not be getting smoke. Likely leak candidates:  (a) at the join between the funnel itself and the opening in the top of the smoke unit where fluid goes in and smoke comes out, or (b) where the fan housing connects to the smoke bowl.

There is no parts diagram for the latest VL Challengers but going by the first issue, which I believe has the same basic hardware, the auxiliary smoke unit for the dynamo/injector is an odd beast; I have had my VL Challenger apart and seen it (because I was getting only anaemic smoke from this feature - especially at the injector underneath the cab, which is connected to the smoke unit by a long tube). Here's the diagram:

Parts 2 and 9 are connected by the tubing part 5, which might have worked loose. But if the funnel that fits into the PCB, part 14, has worked loose or is misaligned, fluid can leak there. 

I don't want to overburden you with opinions/info, not least because Lionel doesn't generally use metal components like 9 and 2 any more but plastic substitutes, which can crack particularly if the screws into them are overtightened. I do recommend however that you run the unit and see if any air at all is coming out of the dynamo mounting hole. If not, but you can hear the fan spinning, the culprit could be the tubing join. 

Jason Cvitanich posted:

Thank you for the help. I really really hope its something simple like a blocked tube. I will try blowing in the outlet tube to see if that fixes the problem. My other concern I forgot to mention is when I put the funnel down the intake tube and apply the 10 drops of smoke fluid I notice smoke fluid seeps out between the boiler and the walk plate. I see no smoke coming out anywhere which I thought was strange. 

I was the person who posted the tip from the Lionel tech about tilting the engine when adding smoke.  I had sent mine in with the same smoke issue you have.  Hot air, fan working,  fluid leaking everywhere and no smoke.  Blowing down the tube had no effect.  By the time I was done I had added at least 4 mL of fluid.  The report I got back was that the reservoir was dry so all that fluid went somewhere else.

 After they returned it the Dynamo smoked fine, but I decided not to use that feature anymore for fear of getting fluid into the electronics.  You might want to try that suggestion the tech had given me, but it is inconvenient to have to remove the engine from the track and tilt it every time you need to fill that smoke unit.

It is possible that simply blowing hard down the tube is not enough to unblock the tube.  Maybe the compressed air suggestion might clear fluid trapped in the tube.  However, the note from the tech seemed to imply that unless the engine is tilted, the fluid sits on top of the cover and never goes into the reservoir.  Then as the smoke unit is run the fluid is just blown into the engine.

JFC454 posted:

I was the person who posted the tip from the Lionel tech about tilting the engine when adding smoke.  I had sent mine in with the same smoke issue you have.  Hot air, fan working,  fluid leaking everywhere and no smoke . . .

However, the note from the tech seemed to imply that unless the engine is tilted, the fluid sits on top of the cover and never goes into the reservoir.  Then as the smoke unit is run the fluid is just blown into the engine.

Thanks for confirming what you were told. Hmmmm. If there was hot air being blown out in your case then the fan/tubing was connected to the smoke chamber; OP hasn't said he's detected hot air coming out. But not sure how fluid sitting in the funnel chamber will get blown inside the engine without an internal leak somewhere. Also OP said he saw the leakage while refilling the smoke fluid, which suggests to me leakage without any pressure from the fan.

This is where you wish for one of those @Alex M "A Look Inside" [the VL Challenger] videos but I can't trace one. 

P.S. I have reminded myself of an old thread which links this "Inside the VL Challenger - Dynamo/Injector Smoke Unit" Bill Yates video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCe2Jz-y4uI

Spoiler Alert: Don't look at this if you don't want to see how this feature can perform

Ok there’s got to be an issue here. This is the 4th challenger I know of that when fluid is added to the dynamo it pulls up between the walk way and boiler. Mine is in for the sound upgrade now. If this persists makes me want to crack it open and check it for myself. As stated before the funnel to the unit is not the most direct route 

JFC454 posted:

Jason Cvitanich posted:

Thank you for the help. I really really hope its something simple like a blocked tube. I will try blowing in the outlet tube to see if that fixes the problem. My other concern I forgot to mention is when I put the funnel down the intake tube and apply the 10 drops of smoke fluid I notice smoke fluid seeps out between the boiler and the walk plate. I see no smoke coming out anywhere which I thought was strange. 

  However, the note from the tech seemed to imply that unless the engine is tilted, the fluid sits on top of the cover and never goes into the reservoir.  Then as the smoke unit is run the fluid is just blown into the engine.

I looked up the tech comments again and the wording was "have learned that you have to tilt the engine forward to get the smoke fluid in the smoke unit, or it just gets blown out the back...."  I had assumed that meant back into the engine.

Thanks guys for all the help. I tried blowing air in the dynamo outlet but that didn't seem to help. I provided a photo of the outlet. I'm guessing this is it since I can't feel any air coming out of it I'm not 100% sure. At this point I'm not sure what I want to do. Seems like Lionel doesn't have a fix for this and I'm nervous about sending it in for repair again. Anyone else have any suggestions? 

the smoke output for the injectors is below the cab if you flip the locomotive over you’ll see it. 

Sorry, that’s the right side of the loco but wrong location; I remember being fooled by that too. It’s right at the back of the engine under the cab and close to the trailing wheels.

This still from the Trainworld video of the 49’s version is the only image I have found of the latest run of the VL Challenger with both the dynamo and injector in operation, and you can see where the injector smoke comes out right at the back of the loco under the cab:

As I have said, I think that the assembly for this is the same in both VL Challenger issues. I can confirm that this still from the Bill Yates video linked above shows the injector outlet under the cab and it is actually two, one round and one through a kind of oval-shaped trough above it in the photo:

For completeness, this outlet links to the smoke unit by a tube leading from the top of the unit:

I never got anything anything more than a whisp of smoke from this outlet. By blowing compressed air (using an airbrush) into the dynamo outlet on top of the engine, I confirmed that the airway to this outlet was clear (the air came out of it) and then when I took the boiler shell off, I saw that the tubing was all connected and not bent/pinched. 

If you compare Bill Yates’ video to there being no or minimal smoke from this feature, you’ll see that he got spectacular results and probably as a result of saturating the wicking in this unit by taking the shell off, the unit apart and filling it  that way rather than through the dynamo opening:

At this stage, if you want this feature to function as best it can and don’t want to take it apart yourself, I wouldn’t return it to Lionel but send it to one of the repair techs on this Forum (AlexM or GRJ) and let them do the necessary. Lionel should be capable of dealing with these warranty issues but I am not sure they do in all cases. The extra expense could be worthwhile depending on how important the feature is to you. 

The only other thing that occurs to me is using small diameter flexible tubing to feed the smoke fluid as far into the funnel as far as you can. Bill Yates mentions that in his video but not sure he showed whether he invented anything for that purpose. I can see that might compensate for the fluid pooling in the funnel. I've done something similar with a squeeze bottle having a needle tip applicator to put the tubing on. 

In my case, the model developed a sound fault which I have never got around to fixing myself and so I did not pursue the smoke issue any further. I’m tempted to take it apart again (NOT an easy exercise in terms of getting it all back together correctly/without damage) but I have other models to run and, of course, work on.

P.S. I never had the smoke fluid leakage problem you and others have reported with the new issue VL Challengers. I was pretty conservative about the amount I put in and used a needle dropper to get it well inside the funnel assembly; I also blew down the dynamo opening. I really don’t understand how the leak could occur but maybe I was just lucky in that respect.

So after blowing air through the outlet tube and tilting the engine forward while adding the fluid I was able to see smoke coming out the rear. Now as much as in the photo but enough to assure me its working. Thank you to everyone who responded to this post. Once this smoke gets used up I probably will turn off the dynamo effect. Having to tilt the engine forward was kind of a pain. 

The photo with the 49’s version is that Dynamo smoke coming out the top of the boiler? (where you add the smoke fluid)

Jason Cvitanich posted:

The photo with the 49’s version is that Dynamo smoke coming out the top of the boiler? (where you add the smoke fluid)

Yes. And as that's closer by far to the smoke unit outlet than the injector at the base of the cab, it's where you should probably see the most smoke from this unit. Anyway, the last picture shows the dynamo smoke source more clearly.

Hancock52 posted:

Jason Cvitanich posted:

The photo with the 49’s version is that Dynamo smoke coming out the top of the boiler? (where you add the smoke fluid)

Yes. And as that's closer by far to the smoke unit outlet than the injector at the base of the cab, it's where you should probably see the most smoke from this unit. Anyway, the last picture shows the dynamo smoke source more clearly.

I'm going to inspect mine when I get home. The part that fits on top I don't think has a hole to let smoke escape. I only see smoke coming out the bottom below the cab.  

Jason Cvitanich posted:

I'm going to inspect mine when I get home. The part that fits on top I don't think has a hole to let smoke escape. I only see smoke coming out the bottom below the cab.  

Well, that would be another oddity. The whole point of this feature is for smoke to stream out of the dynamo, as well as the injector, as it would on a steamer with a steam-powered dynamo. It could be clogged by smoke fluid or you may have to seat it in the opening differently. 

I know that Lionel modified that part for the current run of VL Challengers so that it would better stay in place but I am not sure how they did that. On my first issue VL Challenger, it often came out/off just as result of moving the loco by hand. Right now that engine is in a storage cabinet with the dynamo piece on the shelf next to it.

Jason By tilting the engine forward did you mean you lifted the engine from the cab so the cab was higher off the track then the pilot and if so how much higher was it ? Thanks FJI 

FJI posted:

Jason By tilting the engine forward did you mean you lifted the engine from the cab so the cab was higher off the track then the pilot and if so how much higher was it ? Thanks FJI 

I made a ramp out of some wood say 20" long with a 4" incline on one side. I place the engine so the cab side is up in the air (like it is going down a steep hill). I placed 14 drops and waited a few minutes before placing it back on the track. Also you have to hold the funnel up a little bit (don't let it rest on the bottom). Otherwise the fluid can't drain out the funnel. End result...... amazing amount of smoke!!!! I went from nothing to a whole lot. 

Thanks again everyone. The last thing I wanted to do was send my engine back for no reason.

I just received my 1931260 Challenger #3985 back from Lionel Service.  The technician said the Generator smoke unit was dry.  He did install a new wick batting.  He suggested that I tilt the engine forward when I fill the Generator steam smoke.  It sounds like Lionel shifted the Generator Smoke unit inside this run of the Challenger engine.  My original Vision Line Challenger #3967 fills easily from the open Generator port.

Tilting the engine forward means the smoke fluid has to run over the top of the smoke unit until it drops into the smoke unit opening - - - some may make it in.  The only benefit is that Lionel will be selling a lot more smoke fluid.  The Steam Generator worked for 10 minutes and now needs more smoke fluid.

The new articulated sounds are very good, but the technician did NOT change the drivers to put them OUT-OF-SYNC.  I will have to call Lionel and find out why they did not do this since it was stated in my repair letter and was typed into the call log notes that Katie created for the RA.

The engine sounds are very good and like my Vision Line Big Boys.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I just received an email from a friend who bought the Greyhound Challenger #3977.  He has a hand written note from the technician that states that the technician is NOT allowed by Lionel Service to change the Sync of the drivers.  That would explain why my #3985 was not changed. 

The sound is very good and the whistle is exactly like the Vision Line Big Boy.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John Rowlen posted:

I just received an email from a friend who bought the Greyhound Challenger #3977.  He has a hand written note from the technician that states that the technician is NOT allowed by Lionel Service to change the Sync of the drivers.  That would explain why my #3985 was not changed. 

The sound is very good and the whistle is exactly like the Vision Line Big Boy.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

To me, that is NOT acceptable.  Others have come back out of sync.  I suspect this is a time saving move...but I don't care.  That's not what I paid for.

I have my RA on my desk.  Not sure how to proceed.  Becoming disappointed.

When I bought my 1391260 Challenger Lionel had changed the Sync for the buyer who posted a video on OGR Forum of the newly-revised sound at four speeds.  It is one of the reasons I went ahead with the purchase and sent the engine into Lionel and waited for its return.  My dealer assured me that he would refund my money if Lionel could not make the engine right.  I will have to contact him to see why Lionel changed the driver sync for one customer, but is not doing it now.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John:  I'd start by contacting Lionel directly and seek a better explanation on the driver sync.  I'm not willing to settle for this either.  If that doesn't work, then go to your dealer.

On a bright spot, my dynamo steam effect and blow down are working again.  There seems to be a problem getting the smoke fluid to the heating element.  If/once that happens, this model smokes great.   IF that happens.........

At the end of the day, I think the only real, consistent, easy fix on the insertion of the smoke fluid into these Challengers is to come up with a special bottle that has a long, narrow, flexible spout or needle on it that can be inserted into the dynamo "hole" and then aimed in the right direction to reach the heating element.

When the smoke fluid does get to the element, the effect is very impressive.  But currently, this is way too difficult to do consistently.

John Rowlen posted:

When I bought my 1391260 Challenger Lionel had changed the Sync for the buyer who posted a video on OGR Forum of the newly-revised sound at four speeds.  It is one of the reasons I went ahead with the purchase and sent the engine into Lionel and waited for its return.  My dealer assured me that he would refund my money if Lionel could not make the engine right.  I will have to contact him to see why Lionel changed the driver sync for one customer, but is not doing it now.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

That was my video.  My engine had a defect in one of the wheels on the front truck that required replacement.  That may explain why my engine was reassembled with the drivers out of sync.

Hancock52 posted:

 

 

To each his own, but this photo might sum up why there are those of us who are happy to have a more simple mechanism, without all the extra "bells and whistles".  I think this fits the term "rats' nest".  

The on-going discussion about what features we might like to have ("So What's Missing?") made me think of this...

Mark in Oregon

Mark:   Right now, I have my Challenger running on my outer loop.....b/c it's 0-72.  On my inner loop of 0-63, I have my TMCC NKP 779 from 2003....which is a beautiful, scale model, IMHO.  I ran the Berk a bit last night after enjoying a plethora of smoke  and sound from my new Challenger.

While I'm upset that this brand new locomotive has to go back to NC and I'm still upset that my Legacy Santa Fe 3751 still won't smoke after having been repaired by Lionel years ago, I still think the juice is worth the squeeze on some of today's newer, feature rich Legacy or VL steamers....even with the rat's nest.

Running a model from 2003 with only two chuffs, Railsounds 4.0, and very marginal smoke output just doesn't compare to running the newer models.  And not to offend anyone, but contrast the new models to the MPC, LTI, or Postwar era, and it's almost a different hobby.

This stuff can really be frustrating at times.  But if and when (emphasis on if and when) the new models work right, they're pretty darn cool.

I checked with Katie November 1, 2019.  Lionel is only doing the Challenger sound update of articulated sounds and putting new wicking in Steam Generator Units if requested/needed.

Lionel is NOT putting the VL Challenger Drivers Out-of-Sync because it would void the warranty for future service.  Lionel has customers who have damaged their Challengers doing the Out-of-Sync themselves. Check with Lionel if you have questions.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I sense a very unpleasant conversation coming then.  That's not remotely acceptable.

First, these were "made" incorrectly.  Secondly, they apparently refuse to fix them.

Wow.  That.....is less than impressive.

Berkshire President posted:

I sense a very unpleasant conversation coming then.  That's not remotely acceptable.

First, these were "made" incorrectly.  Secondly, they apparently refuse to fix them.

Wow.  That.....is less than impressive.

But hey....check out the silly facebook presentation https://www.facebook.com/Lione...eos/389297501949196/

Impressive....for all the wrong reasons.

John Rowlen posted:

I checked with Katie November 1, 2019.  Lionel is only doing the Challenger sound update of articulated sounds and putting new wicking in Steam Generator Units if requested/needed.

Lionel is NOT putting the VL Challenger Drivers Out-of-Sync because it would void the warranty for future service. 

Why does simply changing the orientation of one set of drivers to the other set "void the warranty"? 

Lionel has customers who have damaged their Challengers doing the Out-of-Sync themselves.

Sure would like to see/hear the technical reasons for THAT!

Check with Lionel if you have questions.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

I just had...shockingly....a very pleasurable and polite conversation with the Group formerly known as Customer Service.  I'll gladly share results as they transpire.

If I have time over the weekend, I'll post some pix of the syringes I used to get the dynamo effect working....gloriously.

Hot Water,  From what I was told, the engine warranty becomes void by altering the orientation.  It shows that the customer or somebody else messed with the engine.  The damage that was mentioned to me was caused by pinching wires and creating a $300. repair bill for the owner. 

Berkshire President,  Talking with Lionel is always a pleasurable experience for me. The phone staff is very helpful, but often the person needed for an answer is not available.  It is important to remember that all conversations may be recorded.  Improper language and conduct may get your service delayed, as you will have to deal directly with management, and not with customer service staff.

Be on your best behavior no matter how frustrated you are.

Sincerely, John Rowlen 

P.S.  I found a smoke fluid needle squeeze bottle on Ebay.  It has a bend in the needle that may help direct the smoke fluid without tilting the engine forward.  If it works well, I will post more information.

John Rowlen posted:

Hot Water,  From what I was told, the engine warranty becomes void by altering the orientation.  It shows that the customer or somebody else messed with the engine.  

So if Lionel "messes" with the engine can they void their own warranty?  I sent my engine in to have a defective wheel replaced.  It came back with the drivers out of sync as I requested.  It also came back with rear marker lights not working, a problem that did not exist before it was sent in.  Still waiting for its return a second time.

JFC454,  That is a very good question.  Hopefully Lionel Service will remember that they put the drivers OUT of SYNC when they replaced the defective wheel.  I would save the technicians notes and RA paperwork in the carton with the engine.  Make a copy of it when you send the engine for service.

I am sorry to hear about the tender marker light.  I have had a few engines go back three times.  Hopefully everything will be corrected when it returns.

Sincerely, John Rowlen

John:  Everything was very polite and civilized. 

The Forum is for venting at times.....but I won't be a jerk on the phone with someone from Customer Service.

I just got my Challenger back from Lionel and the new sound file is working well.  However the generator smoke is very light to nonexistent even with tilting the cab forward. Now after one day of running my tender has gone dead.  No sounds or lights are to be seen.  The back up light is also now dead.  I have sent Lionel service an email and will wait to see how to proceed.  The first repair took a little over a month but I was pleased as they originally said it would take three months. This is my first Vision line engine and I am looking forward to getting it going.

Grandfather in Training!

Don’t quote me on this but I think there have been a number of issues in the tender and I don’t remember where but on one of theses threads someone said that the wiring harnesses to the volume trimpot and lights are ver tight inside the tender and in shipping can come loose out of the board. Should be a real easy fix. Haven had my new one apart but should come apart very easy like the 2010 version. 

on a side note does anyone still have issues with smoke fluid building up along the walkway. I’ll love the new sounds and will love without in-synced drivers until the warranty expires but this smoke fluid build up has me a little worried. 

Duncan H W Foster posted:

I just got my Challenger back from Lionel and the new sound file is working well.  However the generator smoke is very light to nonexistent even with tilting the cab forward. Now after one day of running my tender has gone dead.  No sounds or lights are to be seen.  The back up light is also now dead.  I have sent Lionel service an email and will wait to see how to proceed.  The first repair took a little over a month but I was pleased as they originally said it would take three months. This is my first Vision line engine and I am looking forward to getting it going.

Grandfather in Training!

I had the same thing happen to my tender when I first received the engine.  Ran the engine for a couple of hours and tender's lights and sounds stopped working.  A few hours later the tender suddenly came to life again.  What kind of track are you using?  I have Atlas and the tender would cut out briefly when it went over switches.  Maybe frequent power interruption is causing problems with the electronics.

I also have smoke fluid building up on the walk ways........