New UP 844 by Lionel

Hot Water posted:

BigJohn&theWork posted:

 

My #838 arrived yesterday. Here is a video of it. It is an amazing engine and I am very happy with it. 

Thanks for the nice video, which answered  one of the important questions I had about the "other versions" of the FEF-3, i.e. the feed water systems. According to the Lionel catalog and Lionel representatives at the last York event, the "other versions" would have the CORRECT feed water systems!

Sad to say, your nice video shows that the 838 still has the Worthington Feedwater heating tank just forward of the stack. The real UP 838, had, and still has, the Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System, as it was never up-graded to the Worthington system. Although you video never showed the Fireman's side of the model, obviously Lionel got this version wrong. Darned shame, as I REALLY wanted a FEF-3 with the Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System.

HW, I am happy my video was helpful to answer the feed water systems question. It is unfortunate that Lionel went out of there way to mention in the catalogue that they would get the feed water systems correct and then did not produce it as such. Would you be able to post a picture of what a Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System looks like? I have been curious ever since it was brought up when pre orders were being taken for the FEF's. 

Sorry "BIGJOHN", I do not know how to post such prototype photos off the internet. The Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System is plainly obvious on the Fireman's side, as that large diameter "sewer pipe" under the walkway is the most visible component.

You could also Google UP FEF-2 & FEF-3 steam locomotives, or maybe UP FEF-3 #838 for views of the Fireman's side.

 

Thanks for the nice video, which answered  one of the important questions I had about the "other versions" of the FEF-3, i.e. the feed water systems. According to the Lionel catalog and Lionel representatives at the last York event, the "other versions" would have the CORRECT feed water systems!

There's a term for this.  It's called....false advertising.

I don't see how customers are expected to purchase via BTO when Lionel continually fails to produce what is described....in pictures and in writing....in their catalogs.

And if Lionel employees actually promised these details to their customers at York, who is really running this "ship"?  Is anyone doing QC?  Are there any standards that have to be met....or are these just models accepted off the container ship "as is"?

A premium price should yield a premium product, IMHO.

Great video!

really disappointed the Seller's FWH wasn't done as advertised. Main reason I ordered it. 

My wallet won't be out for anymore Lionel die-cast steam. I have a choice and have made it.

Berkshire President posted:

 

Thanks for the nice video, which answered  one of the important questions I had about the "other versions" of the FEF-3, i.e. the feed water systems. According to the Lionel catalog and Lionel representatives at the last York event, the "other versions" would have the CORRECT feed water systems!

There's a term for this.  It's called....false advertising.

I don't see how customers are expected to purchase via BTO when Lionel continually fails to produce what is described....in pictures and in writing....in their catalogs.

And if Lionel employees actually promised these details to their customers at York, who is really running this "ship"?  Is anyone doing QC?  Are there any standards that have to be met....or are these just models accepted off the container ship "as is"?

A premium price should yield a premium product, IMHO.

A bit harsh, but all in all, I must agree. That is why I didn't pre-order one of the "other versions", for fear that the Feedwater System would not be modeled correctly. I'll just have to be satisfied with my previous Legacy 844, and my Sunset/3rd Rail 841, both of which are modeled correctly for mid 1950s.

I think the whole "bto thing" has run its course.

Most of the recent bto offerings like the ese Hudson can be had for less than the best bto preorder price that could be found when it was announced.

These fefs will come down in a few months for reasons mentioned and the 2-8-0's with silly errors/omissions will be on blowout for under $600 by Christmas. Fool me once......

Seller's FWH on FEF-1.

Great video!  And...your FEF-3 is just fine.  It will look as authentic as any as it travels down your tracks!  It is a great looking locomotive!  Matt

Here are are a few pictures of the original issue 844 and the 2016 issue 838.  Tried to get high quality bright pictures for comparison!  

I have not tested anything yet on the 838 but I will say smoke wise my 844 is amazing. Huge plumes of smoke, but I also add 40-80 drops at any given time! Never had it leak or flood. I did buy 844 used from a forum member and I'm fairly certain something inside is not original to Lionel but I plan to do the same 40-80 drop test on the new one and judge the smoke from that. If you add 20 drops you probably will get 3-5 min max of good smoke  lol  

MARK BEE,

Very nice photos. Please post some photos of the fireman's side of the 838 model, that way we can all see the Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System piping under the side walkway, and under the cab.

HW, here are the best pics I have of the firemans side right now. I've been on the firemans side of the cab of a (smaller) steam engine all day. I'll Attatch a picture of that last. 

1897 Baldwin Locomotive Works 4-4-0. Detroit and Lima Northern #7 one of 3 operating steam locomotives I work on at "The Henry Ford" (Greenfield Village) HW have you ever seen Metropolitan Injectors? I think we are one of 2 or 3 locomotives who still have them in use. We are in the process of having new castings and parts made to build new ones for use and spares as we don't expect the two on it to last forever that Mr. Ford sourced before his cosmetic restoration when he put it in his museum for display only (don't think he ever thought it'd be restored over 7+ years to operation!)

Mark Bee posted:

HW, here are the best pics I have of the firemans side right now. I've been on the firemans side of the cab of a (smaller) steam engine all day. I'll Attatch a picture of that last. 

 

 

Well, that photo of 838 certainly does not appear to show anything related to the Sellers Exhaust Steam Feedwater System. Looks like Lionel simply paint road number 838 on a model of 844.

Yep. That's all they did.

Honestly, disappointed but expected that.

i posted the correct Seller's FWH above it for all to see.

MARK BEE,

  You may want to contact Mike Reagan at Lionel and ask him to confirm that the Sellers feedwater system was or was not used on the Lionel 838 model of the FEF. His forum name is Mikado do a search and get his email address. Send him a email he has always responded to my questions/issues in a timely manor.

I would imagine that using the correct parts for engine # 838 would be a concern with the workers in China. Maybe your was the one that got screwed up. My guess is not a lot of #838s were sold and the majority were 844s or 8444s.

He may have a way of correcting the problem.

Good luck let us know what you find out.

JohnB

My 838 is wrong also.

it's the fourth 838 with the incorrect FWH I've saw.  Appears the 838s were all wrong from the factory. Or Lionel didn't produce them as advertised in the catalog.

A86TA3555R,

Did you contact Lionel either by phone or email?

JohnB

JohnB posted:

A86TA3555R,

Did you contact Lionel either by phone or email?

JohnB

Somehow, I don't think that is going to help, no matter WHAT the answer. Obviously many folks ordered/purchase that specific model based on a VERY descriptive catalog explanation about the CORRECT road number specific feedwater systems.

"Items  in this catalog are subject to change in price, color,size,design and availability" 

I think theres a name for this....bait and switch maybe????

86TA355SR posted:

My 838 is wrong also.

it's the fourth 838 with the incorrect FWH I've saw.  Appears the 838s were all wrong from the factory. Or Lionel didn't produce them as advertised in the catalog.

Extremely frustrating at $1699.

Is there any evidence of a delivered correct #838? I've been pleased with so many of Lionel models, it's disappointing to hear results like this from hobbyists willing to spend the money.  I was excited to hear Lionel responding to feedback asking for FEFs in more road numbers.

838 likely picked as an FEF-3 survivor, but I'm guessing the decision on details had more to do with return on production cost than some accident. I have to believe even Chinese manufacturer's employees with zero locomotive knowledge must know the difference of how to put either part # X or part # Y into position Z.

RickO posted:

"Items  in this catalog are subject to change in price, color,size,design and availability" 

I think theres a name for this....bait and switch maybe????

This is one reason why I will no longer preorder any Lionel engines. The pictures and description never match the delivered item 75% of the time. When I buy a car or truck the dealer never tells me... "Items  in this catalog are subject to change in price, color,size,design and availability" 

Just my opinion but, I'm not so sure that that disclaimer statement would hold up in this case. In the catalog in question, there was no photos of the Fireman's side on any of the "other" FEF-3 road numbers that should have been equipped with the Sellers feedwater system, However there specific red circles emphatically stating that the correct feedwater systems would be offered. Plus, a good friend of mine, who attends EVERY York event, specifically ask a Lionel Representative about, "Will that rectangular Worthington heater box, mounted forward of the twin stack, be removed on the models with the Sellers system?". The answer was a YES!   

And there is the frustrating part of it, even when asking a Lionel rep specifically about that detail you can't count on or believe the answer.  I have a 844 coming and am glad I did not go with the 838....I really debated it for a while and am glad I passed on the 838.  So frustrating for those that were relying on incorrect information. 

HW, N&W Class J, Others,

       I would think after all the attention Lionel made about using the correct feed water system it is just plain crazy not to call or email Lionel and ask the question. I have no skin in this debate but I would like to know the answer myself. I did not buy a 844, 8444 or a 838 black or grey. I am not even a UP fan. But if I had a 838 I would like to know why it did not have what was strongly advertised in the catalog and at the York show. 

JohnB

I saw this at my LHS.  I'm pretty happy I didn't jump on the whistle steam and sensor hype.  I have the original release and IMO it smoke 10x better than this release.  With the whistle so close to the stack it's difficult to see it.  Not impossible but difficult.  The sensor issue is solved with the soon to be released sensor car.  And I have specific road number announcements to boot.  I currently have the Greyhound version and will look for the black on the secondary market.   If I didn't already have the older version then I'm sure this would suit me fine but this is certainly the case where the older version out weighs the new one in many ways.

Marty, the fact the new engine has the RCMC board system and not modular boards works great for me.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Marty, the fact the new engine has the RCMC board system and not modular boards works great for me.

I understand that but most folks who do not need to be under the hood probably won't care.  Again if I didn't have the original it would be a no brainier but folks who have an older model, I'm not sure the whistle smoke and sensor is worth dropping additional bucks on an engine I already own.  Again I own the Grey version and will be watching for an older  black version to show up on the secondary market.

BTO was an economic necessity for Lionel given the current economic horizon. I understand the logic but, unless Lionel recognizes that their advertising and the final product represent a two way street, they will be aiming the shotgun at their foot.

It is one thing to claim that the final product may change. It is QUITE another to boldly advertise in red that the correct appliances will be appropriately added per road number.

I imagine that Lionel will offer a refund to anyone so dissatisfied but, in the end, BTO will succeed or fail based upon the faith customers have that when they plunk down $1500+, the product will, at least, be delivered as advertised.

I have spoken,

Scrapiron Scher

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Marty, the fact the new engine has the RCMC board system and not modular boards works great for me.

I have to agree with Marty here .There so much easier to fix..1/2 the problems with the older legacy was loose boards and piniched wires. I opened up a ge evo the other night and there was 4 pinched wires it's admazing it even ran. Or the stupid railsounds board gets caught in the shell.The new system makes so much more room and less issues. I would of been all over the fef but I am getting the allegheny and gs4 so I had to sit this one out. I did buy the nickel plate 2-8-0 and I have to say I really don't like it at all. That's gonna be forsale real quick .

Guys, I did a close comparison with the older 844 and the new 844. The new 844 beats the older version quite easy. When i get a chance i will post a video of both and you won't believe how much better and much more robust the new version sounds than the old version. Some folks said that the new version has less detail, i spent 30 minutes trying to find a difference. There's no difference at all. In my opinion the new version is outstanding!!!!!! 

Thanks, Alex

I didn't see any physical differences other than the whistle smoke additions, so that's off the table.

While I'm sure the sound is a bit better, my point is for me at least, since I own the previous version, for me to buy this one would IMO not be prudent.  Especially since I do have the specific road name announcement and a smoke unit that will mimic a MTH engine. 

I'll be waiting for Alex's sound comparison video but I suspect there will not be enough difference to change my opinion on opting not to purchase new when the old is sufficient.  I'm pretty much over replacing my older engines just to get whistle smoke and sensors.  Again though I will say if I I didn't have one then it would be a no brainer to purchase this model.

jojofry posted:

. I did buy the nickel plate 2-8-0 and I have to say I really don't like it at all. That's gonna be forsale real quick .

Amazing how many have rejected this engine for non prototypical detail issues.   My UP #618 (pd less than $618 for it)  appears pretty darn close to the prototype, runs perfectly, has whistle smoke and sounds great.  I can live with its minor issues.  Let's not forget not that long ago, folks paid more then this and waited in line for a Lionel Berkshire concoction that resembled the prototype in wheel arrangement only, ran terrible and loved it.    This is a model with great sound, a smooth runner, its close to the prototype and its priced right. Yet it is slammed all over the internet.. How easy one forgets...Go figure???

Joe

Alex M posted:

Guys, I did a close comparison with the older 844 and the new 844. The new 844 beats the older version quite easy.

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you before you even start.  Why?

1) The 2008 Version has Cab Number Specific Crew Talk....and NOT Rich Melvin's voice.  This is nothing against Rich...at all.  But I now have three locos with the same "voice".  I also frequently run my 765 and 844 at the same time....so it's weird having the same voice from two locos at the same time.

2)  Look at the ends or the caps on the steam cylinders.  The new version is only painted.  The 2008 version is much nicer in this regards.

3)  I've watched many videos of the new FEFs.  While the sound appears a tad bit more robust, I do not see any difference (significant or otherwise) in smoke output.  And, as others have mentioned, the Whistle Steam Effect on these isn't that impressive only b/c the whistle is so close to the smoke stack.

4)  I much prefer the drivers and running gear on the 2008 version than the new version.

5)  You can still buy the 2008 FEFs for roughly 800-850 bucks on the secondary market....which is very close to their street price in 2008.  The new FEFs....well, they're considerably more expensive.

Having said that the, the new FEFs are.....very, very nice.  No doubt about it.  They still have a LOT of things going for them.  However, I personally prefer the 2008 version...and am very glad that I didn't sell mine to pre-order a new one.  

JC642 posted:

jojofry posted:

. I did buy the nickel plate 2-8-0 and I have to say I really don't like it at all. That's gonna be forsale real quick .

Amazing how many have rejected this engine for non prototypical detail issues.   My UP #618 (pd less than $618 for it)  appears pretty darn close to the prototype, runs perfectly, has whistle smoke and sounds great.  I can live with its minor issues.  Let's not forget not that long ago, folks paid more then this and waited in line for a Lionel Berkshire concoction that resembled the prototype in wheel arrangement only, ran terrible and loved it.    This is a model with great sound, a smooth runner, its close to the prototype and its priced right. Yet it is slammed all over the internet.. How easy one forgets...Go figure???

Joe

      

I didn't say one thing about it not being prototypical .But thanks for putting words in my mouth . I just don't like the detail of the engine . Maybe give us a cab light and some detail. It looks like a rtr engine . That's my opinion .

Berkshire President posted:

Alex M posted:

Guys, I did a close comparison with the older 844 and the new 844. The new 844 beats the older version quite easy.

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you before you even start.  Why?

1) The 2008 Version has Cab Number Specific Crew Talk....and NOT Rich Melvin's voice.  This is nothing against Rich...at all.  But I now have three locos with the same "voice".  I also frequently run my 765 and 844 at the same time....so it's weird having the same voice from two locos at the same time.

2)  Look at the ends or the caps on the steam cylinders.  The new version is only painted.  The 2008 version is much nicer in this regards.

3)  I've watched many videos of the new FEFs.  While the sound appears a tad bit more robust, I do not see any difference (significant or otherwise) in smoke output.  And, as others have mentioned, the Whistle Steam Effect on these isn't that impressive only b/c the whistle is so close to the smoke stack.

4)  I much prefer the drivers and running gear on the 2008 version than the new version.

5)  You can still buy the 2008 FEFs for roughly 800-850 bucks on the secondary market....which is very close to their street price in 2008.  The new FEFs....well, they're considerably more expensive.

Having said that the, the new FEFs are.....very, very nice.  No doubt about it.  They still have a LOT of things going for them.  However, I personally prefer the 2008 version...and am very glad that I didn't sell mine to pre-order a new one.  

FINALLY, some actual factual statements!  Thank you, and I fully agree. My "previous" Legacy model of 844, is an excellent representation of UP FEF-3 locomotives, in service in the early to mid 1950s, which is the steam era I model. Plus, for what it's worth, your comment about the cylinder head covers is ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!

Berkshire President posted:

Alex M posted:

Guys, I did a close comparison with the older 844 and the new 844. The new 844 beats the older version quite easy.

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you before you even start.  Why?

1) The 2008 Version has Cab Number Specific Crew Talk....and NOT Rich Melvin's voice.  This is nothing against Rich...at all.  But I now have three locos with the same "voice".  I also frequently run my 765 and 844 at the same time....so it's weird having the same voice from two locos at the same time.

2)  Look at the ends or the caps on the steam cylinders.  The new version is only painted.  The 2008 version is much nicer in this regards.

3)  I've watched many videos of the new FEFs.  While the sound appears a tad bit more robust, I do not see any difference (significant or otherwise) in smoke output.  And, as others have mentioned, the Whistle Steam Effect on these isn't that impressive only b/c the whistle is so close to the smoke stack.

4)  I much prefer the drivers and running gear on the 2008 version than the new version.

5)  You can still buy the 2008 FEFs for roughly 800-850 bucks on the secondary market....which is very close to their street price in 2008.  The new FEFs....well, they're considerably more expensive.

Having said that the, the new FEFs are.....very, very nice.  No doubt about it.  They still have a LOT of things going for them.  However, I personally prefer the 2008 version...and am very glad that I didn't sell mine to pre-order a new one.  

I've heard the whistle on both engines and prefer the older FEF.   The new one sounds more the VL BB which is powerful and authentic yes but you know its fake with its double amplified recording inside.   Whistle on the older FEF is fantastic. like the MR #261, it gives the impression you're hearing real live steam as it chugs past you..

Joe 

"and am very glad that I didn't sell mine to pre-order a new one." 

I bought the 2008 version as well. I like the new sound, but I agree this will NOT prompt me to sell it and buy a new one.

Its unfortunate that they did not get the appropriate details correct with the appropriate CAB numbers. But I believe this is a first for Lionel, and to break out of making toys to specific scale details ... well there will be some growing pains...

Just an additional thought . . . 

I love the #844 Greyhound I purchased and I feel it is a better loco than my Legacy #844 (the first issue). It runs as smoothly as silk, the sounds are better than ever and the whistle, in particular, gives me chills. It also worked right out of the box. I do not care which water heater it has. I care about . . . 

1) Running quality      2) Sound       3) Graphics       4) OFTBE (Out of the box experience)       5) Value for my money

The new #844 passes on all counts !

Eliot

Berkshire President posted:

Alex M posted:

Guys, I did a close comparison with the older 844 and the new 844. The new 844 beats the older version quite easy.

Going to have to respectfully disagree with you before you even start.  Why?

1) The 2008 Version has Cab Number Specific Crew Talk....and NOT Rich Melvin's voice.  This is nothing against Rich...at all.  But I now have three locos with the same "voice".  I also frequently run my 765 and 844 at the same time....so it's weird having the same voice from two locos at the same time.

2)  Look at the ends or the caps on the steam cylinders.  The new version is only painted.  The 2008 version is much nicer in this regards.

3)  I've watched many videos of the new FEFs.  While the sound appears a tad bit more robust, I do not see any difference (significant or otherwise) in smoke output.  And, as others have mentioned, the Whistle Steam Effect on these isn't that impressive only b/c the whistle is so close to the smoke stack.

4)  I much prefer the drivers and running gear on the 2008 version than the new version.

5)  You can still buy the 2008 FEFs for roughly 800-850 bucks on the secondary market....which is very close to their street price in 2008.  The new FEFs....well, they're considerably more expensive.

Having said that the, the new FEFs are.....very, very nice.  No doubt about it.  They still have a LOT of things going for them.  However, I personally prefer the 2008 version...and am very glad that I didn't sell mine to pre-order a new one.  

All good points that I missed.

I like my new FEF but I dont feel it was worth extra expense. Whistle steam is only cool the first time you use it. It would have been far cooler for steam chest smoke effects like the MR S3. I have the previous run 844 in greyhound and I got that one at a show in San Diego for like $600 and its a great engine. When you break it down, there just isnt anything special about this new release. I will be moving my steam loco business over to 3rd Rail, at these price points its not that much more to get a loco thats correct