I find it hard to believe that Lionel would knowingly put out a product with glaring errors. Who wants to deal with all the returns, lack of sales, and the cost to re-do shells? All of that cuts into their profits. This could simply be a mistake at the factory. I think those that purchased the engines should politely contact Lionel and inform them of the problem. Lionel has stepped up to the plate numerous times to fix issues with the products. Just to name a few: The recall of the S2s due to rust, Backshop motherboard fix, Drivetrain issues with the Niagra, and Legacy remotes still repaired for free. There are many more examples as well. Is it frustrating? Yes. Especially when you have waited a long time for the engine to arrive. Lets give Lionel a chance and see what they have to say.
Asking those who have positive and/or good experiences with Lionel's customer service...
Whom at Lionel would be the BEST person to contact to see if they will resolve this? I have only 15 days to return...
-Jim
Jim Harrington posted:Asking those who have positive and/or good experiences with Lionel's customer service...
Whom at Lionel would be the BEST person to contact to see if they will resolve this? I have only 15 days to return...
-Jim
I suspect the first stop is your dealer, they should have some say because it affects them and their bottom line, then Lionel's "Talk to Us". If you want to try Ryan Kunkle I would say thats probably the best Lionel person. I'm not sure how much success you'll have there.
Let the dealers handle this with Lionel. They have the power to get things corrected.
I would hope that Lionel monitors this Forum to get a feel for the concerns (or praises) of their customer base. I have an ABBA set of NYO&W F-3's. I only opened one F-3A, and yep, it was silver. I would have been happy with a little difference in the shade of gray, but silver is just not right. I have built a layout as realistic as I can in terms of scenery, lighting, buildings, locomotives and rolling stock. I have researched the era through books and photographs. I use my memory seeing all this as a boy, to fill in the gaps. A silver NYO&W diesel just doesn't fit into what I am trying to accomplish. I would really like to keep these F-3's, if only Lionel would respond to my e-mails, or even chime in on this Forum that they are aware of the problem and a solution of correctly painted replacement body shells, or something is in the works. If I hear nothing, I have no choice but to return these F-3's.
Has anybody seen the just-shipped PRR F7s?? I have the AA set arriving Tuesday- and now I am concerned about "Brunswick Green".
If you want to get a hold of Lionel, You will have to send them a separate E mail. Their 'contact us' is a dead link.
Mike Wyatt posted:Has anybody seen the just-shipped PRR F7s?? I have the AA set arriving Tuesday- and now I am concerned about "Brunswick Green".
The nose of the PRR F7s can be seen in this photo behind the SF F3s. It looked ok to me but I'm no expert so you'll have to judge.
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D500 posted:OK - I am going to be rude, here (see T&P thread): the above statement is complete hogwash, and someone is not paying attention to this hobby. Or is an un-enlightened 2-railer (I said un-enlightened 2-railer; not all 2-railers).
NHJ's profile states that he is building a 3 rail layout in his home. Leave us out of this.
Ukaflyer posted:Lionel’s Mission Statement, perhaps it needs to be revisited and changed accordingly!
Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.
Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.
Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this mission statement. Indeed, it is awesome. The problem is not with the mission. It is that the execution of this mission has a gulf the size of the Grand Canyon.
Tom 4 posted:You guys got it all wrong. Don't you know these F3's are part of Lionel's new "Lost Their Vision Line". They started that line right after Mike Reagan left. Once they had the last guy out of the way that actually was into trains, they hired a bunch of people that don't care about trains and are there just to run the business. Look at all the new hires that are in the Lionel booth at York the last couple of years. They figure that prettier and shinier color sell better. If it works in nail salons, it should work to sell those things that run on tracks right?
I am refusing my O&W ABBA set. I should have refused the O&W NW-2 as well. But I figured a little weathering might help what I like to call the "Ghost" paint scheme on that.
Generally agree. We all loved Mike, who is a great guy, but he was apparently the architect of one of the worst decisions in Lionel's history - the decision to abandon Lionel's industry leading die cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and replace them with cheap partially die cast non-sprung trucks with UGLY thumb tack couplers on their scale freight and passenger cars. That decision is crippling sales of Lionel products. That said, the new team, as described by a number of Lionel's top dealers, is not comprised of train guys and they have strayed far afield from Lionel's mission. It is also completely obvious that the new team has no knowledge whatsoever of basic marketing principles. As someone who has been running and collecting Lionel Trains for over 50 years, the current situation is extremely concerning.
Rusty Traque posted:Simon Winter posted:There is a LONG standing precedent for this sort of thing! Back in '57 there was an Illinois Central F3. Nice looking loco, but IC never had any F units! The colors were correct, or shall we say they matched the prototype E units!
Simon
That was a different Lionel Corporation and different times with different expectations back then (BTW, the 1957 IC brown was also too light but I expect there were few complaints.)
Rusty
Rusty,
I don't think they are going to buy into a repaint at this point! We are beyond the 50 year limit! 
Simon
irish rifle posted:Generally agree. We all loved Mike, who is a great guy, but he was apparently the architect of one of the worst decisions in Lionel's history - the decision to abandon Lionel's industry leading die cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and replace them with cheap partially die cast non-sprung trucks with UGLY thumb tack couplers on their scale freight and passenger cars. That decision is crippling sales of Lionel products.
Do we know for a fact the crummy trucks were solely Mikes decision?
Or did he just get behind them because corporate wanted him to?
Either way he got outta dodge before things really started going downhill. Coincidence???
Lionel in North Carolina doesn't hold a candle to Canfield Ohio.
Oh well. That's for another thread that would get deleted before the first reply.
I don't see the "new Lionel" offering replacement shells like the "old Lionel" did. Hopefully I'm wrong and folks that purchase these get what they ordered.
I wonder if it might be possible in this era of super technology to send out color photos of pre-production models to see if they pass the Toy Train Collector Color Test.
I'm green color blind (12% of males are color blind) and even I can see the strange green color on the Williams Northern Pacific passenger F7 units. Or the strange light blue on some of the Williams Missouri Pacific F-7s. On the other hand, let's be fair. Many many many units have been produced and most are quite accurate.
Lew Schneider
irish rifle posted:Ukaflyer posted:Lionel’s Mission Statement, perhaps it needs to be revisited and changed accordingly!
Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.
Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.
Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with this mission statement. Indeed, it is awesome. The problem is not with the mission. It is that the execution of this mission has a gulf the size of the Grand Canyon.
I agree that there is nothing wrong with this mission statement, in fact there is nothing wrong with any companies mission statement as long as you can consistently meet those commitments. When you start to make products that are sub standard or don’t meet the end customers expectations on a frequent basis then you either change the mission statement to reflect the new standards or up your game to meet them.
What intrigues me on the Lionel mission statement is the piece near the bottom which says it works closely with the dealer network on decision making regarding new future products. Does this really happen? How many dealers on this forum can confirm that they get asked by Lionel to have any input on any processes during a production run of an item? If this is true then I would like to think that errors which are being seen would not actually be happening. Otherwise the perception is that in reality it isn’t.
I am kind of nervous to see what the Conrail F7 ABBA set is going to look like....
Peter
I agree with some of the posters above when they say if you're paying a premium price for a piece, it better darn well show up as advertised and with at least an accurate paint job. No excuses. If it was me, they'd come out of the box long enough for a photo and go right back to where I bought them. I have bought my last new Lionel locomotive.
Ukaflyer posted:Lionel’s Mission Statement, perhaps it needs to be revisited and changed accordingly!
Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.
Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.
Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years.
Reads "Toy Trains", not a word about Scale Models nor Prototype Fidelity.
The color does not match the prototype, no doubt about that, but do/did they promise anywhere that it would?
Has anyone contacted the Big L to see what if anything they are going to do?
If not, seems like a lot of venom for something yet to be resolved.
Good luck all!
Simon, an uniformed 2 railer
Simon Winter posted:
The color does not match the prototype, no doubt about that, but do/did they promise anywhere that it would?
Simon, an uniformed 2 railer
Paint is a detail that would fall under "road specific detailing." When the wrong color is used, it's obviously not specific to the railroad in question.
Rusty
MartyE posted:Jim Harrington posted:Asking those who have positive and/or good experiences with Lionel's customer service...
Whom at Lionel would be the BEST person to contact to see if they will resolve this? I have only 15 days to return...
-Jim
I suspect the first stop is your dealer, they should have some say because it affects them and their bottom line, then Lionel's "Talk to Us". If you want to try Ryan Kunkle I would say thats probably the best Lionel person. I'm not sure how much success you'll have there.
Sadly Marty I had to pay a restocking fee for the Sound PS-1 cars with the ridiculous banging sound. With these new F's and the color issues I can understand folks feeling staff should be let go. I'm now very, very worried this new camera/caboose will show up and not work out of the box.
I am anxious to see how this thing turns out. This was my first "pre-order" in over a decade and a very first for the "new" Lionel. I have loved the Old & Weary since I was a kid so when Lionel announced they were making these, I absolutely had to jump on board. I am not a "rivet counter" per se and am forgiving to a point as our track has three rails after all BUT O & W locomotives are grey, not silver, not blue, not anything but grey. They got the NW2's in almost the right shade so why did they totally drop the ball on the F units? This was sort of the last straw for me as there are so many wonderful second hand trains online and at shows that my days of the pre-order "wait a year or a decade (Atlas) for them to be produced" is not really my speed. I'm giving the Big L the benefit of the doubt here but hope I am not going out on a limb in doing so.
RickO posted:irish rifle posted:Generally agree. We all loved Mike, who is a great guy, but he was apparently the architect of one of the worst decisions in Lionel's history - the decision to abandon Lionel's industry leading die cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs and replace them with cheap partially die cast non-sprung trucks with UGLY thumb tack couplers on their scale freight and passenger cars. That decision is crippling sales of Lionel products.
I don’t think the coupler change “crippled” sales.
Do we know for a fact the crummy trucks were solely Mikes decision?
Or did he just get behind them because corporate wanted him to?
Either way he got outta dodge before things really started going downhill. Coincidence???
Agreed, we don’t know the working, budget, and production parameters or limitations that MikeR and staff were given by Lionel Sr. Mgmt/ownership at that time; nor do we know today’s Lionel internal plan. FWIW I thought MikeR commented afterward that he regretted the switch in couplers.
Lionel in North Carolina doesn't hold a candle to Canfield Ohio.
Oh well. That's for another thread that would get deleted before the first reply.
I don't see the "new Lionel" offering replacement shells like the "old Lionel" did. Hopefully I'm wrong and folks that purchase these get what they ordered.
Obviously shell exchange/replacement would be good for current customers and provide Lionel replenished goodwill with past, present & future customers. But today’s Sr.Mgmt & the offshore production environment is different from the rather simplistic postwar F3 Santa Fe Conventional Classics designed shell of 14yrs ago. Whatever the choice Lionel makes, it will likely be costly.
I imagine Lionel dealerships are very concerned as to if or how Lionel decides since the decision can possibly seriously hurt dealers financially now and further weaken the dealer network. Hopefully Lionel will make this right or offer some compensation offset announcement, especially before York so their booth staff can positively address comments & won’t have to sheepishly dodge critics.
Rusty Traque posted:Simon Winter posted:
The color does not match the prototype, no doubt about that, but do/did they promise anywhere that it would?
Simon, an uniformed 2 railer
Paint is a detail that would fall under "road specific detailing." When the wrong color is used, it's obviously not specific to the railroad in question.
Rusty
Thanks Rusty, I do not have any of their advertising and such to have any idea what a buyer's expectations might be. Probably need us a lawyer to figure out all the caveats! Where's that Loco Lawyer at who used to post during the great lawsuit???
Simon
I have first hand information that Lionel will rectify this, with a public announcement coming soon.
My dealer also advised that they would take the return with full refund.
-Jim
Jim Harrington posted:I have first hand information that Lionel will rectify this, with a public announcement coming soon.
My dealer also advised that they would take the return with full refund.
-Jim
Thanks for the info Jim. I appreciate you sharing.
Why not just offer replacement shells, as they did with the Celebration series F3.
SPSF posted:Why not just offer replacement shells, as they did with the Celebration series F3.
How do we know that's not the plan? It's only been a few days and 2 of them were weekend days. Lets see what they say.
NO, I WANT AN OOMPA LOOMPA NOW!!!!!!!
Photo courtesy of the interweb
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New shells are the plan. Ryan will make an official statement soon.
Jim Harrington posted:I have first hand information that Lionel will rectify this, with a public announcement coming soon.
My dealer also advised that they would take the return with full refund.
-Jim
That would good news for the early purchasers. Interested to see when (if?) anyone at Lionel noticed the wrong colors.
Putnam Division posted:I am kind of nervous to see what the Conrail F7 ABBA set is going to look like....
Peter
I never saw Ben Casey or Dr. Kildare get nervous, hang in there "doc." 
@T1Titan_ZachF posted:But will the status of the theater cars be mentioned too? That is the 2nd question 🧐🧐🧐🧐
In a thread about the new F7 colors, why exactly would theater cars be mentioned?
@T1Titan_ZachF posted:MrMoe50 posted:@T1Titan_ZachF posted:But will the status of the theater cars be mentioned too? That is the 2nd question 🧐🧐🧐🧐
In a thread about the new F3 colors, why exactly would theater cars be mentioned?
Why not?
I understand that your anxious for these but you know rushing things cause more problems than good ones!
Doug
Affa was making the passenger cars so you're gonna have to wait a while longer for your theater car
das boot posted:Putnam Division posted:I am kind of nervous to see what the Conrail F7 ABBA set is going to look like....
Peter
I never saw Ben Casey or Dr. Kildare get nervous, hang in there "doc."
Lol! Afraid the "patch job" will have an incorrect shade of grey and white? The " dip blue" will be off? Oh snap the ex PC unit will have the wrong black... Too shiney!
Matt Makens posted:NO, I WANT AN OOMPA LOOMPA NOW!!!!!!!
Photo courtesy of the interweb
Oh... I thought is was the squirrels she wanted.... NOW!
Without getting into the broader discussion, often QC concerns itself with mechanical issues (do the units run, respond to command control, etc, however they test them), with things like paint it is more than likely is the pain done without drips and orange peel, is their overspray between colors, rather than looking at whether it matches the prototype or not, that normally would be covered by the production samples that the customer approves. I doubt the QC people know what the proper gray color for an O and W engine is, and if Lionel chose the silver paint somehow because someone there decided it looked 'flashier' or if the factory fouled up, whether the painting people were told the wrong color or just simply screwed up, doubtful QC would pick that up because likely they aren't expected to make that call (it is much look look and feel with things like the UI on software, QC doesn't determine if the design is the best for customers or if it meets the usual experience, they are there to see if it functionally works the way the specs say they should, things like look and feel or user experience is done by product people or by beta to users). Yeah, this is to me a bit more egregious, more obvious,but keep in mind the QC involved is likely 'local talent' who are doing the job mechanically, doubt very much it is someone trained by Lionel to look for the right colors or whatnot, more than like 'inspector 8' who works for the factory and doesn't know toy trains from toy soldiers.
As far as why people are getting upset, I can't blame them, these aren't cheap items, and Lionel in justifying the prices of these things has been selling both advanced operating features (sound, smoke, chuffs, etc) and fidelity to the real thing, these are not toy like conventional classic products or Lionchief, these are basically supposed to be highly detailed models of the real thing that work on 3 rail track. Some buyers may like the silver, but when you are selling limited edition, very expensive products, there are likely a lot of people who care that it isn't what they thought they were buying, and you can't blame them. Personally would love to know what happened here, if Lionel corporate for some reason thought silver was better, or if someone at the factory used the wrong paint, painted a lot of shells,and the factory decided respray was too expensive and said "no one will notice" and Lionel QC saw the problem and hoped no one would care, but likely we will never know. Hopefully as noted Lionel will make good for those who don't like it, I have been through this kind of issue with changes to a UI that infuriated customers, and as much as our product people and dev could argue "I don't understand why they are complaining, looks good to me" you ignore the customer at your peril. Personally I would hope this was a factory issue, that I could understand, if this was someone at Lionel who signed off on the silver paint ya gotta wonder what the heck they were thinking
There have been too many wrong color trains coming from Lionel. It appears to me that "suits" are calling the shots instead of people that know about trains.
In the age of the internet there is no excuse for this to happen. It took me about ten seconds (slow typer) to get this photo. I am sure with more time I could find better ones.
Attached to an email to China might take a minute or two. The Chinese have been counterfeiting our products for decades. Surely they could match the paint even without being given a paint formula. Who knows maybe the same factory has already done these in HO and has the formula.
After the first one is painted they take a photo and send it back to North Carolina. At that point the product manager, if there is one, gives a thumbs up or down.
If it has Lionel's approval then they finish production and send them to Lionel for final inspection.
These should have never been sent to dealers.
Why is this so difficult for the Lionel apologists to understand?
Pete
Blue Streak posted:New shells are the plan. Ryan will make an official statement soon
That is GREAT NEWS !!
