Another big screw up, in a series of big screw ups from Lionel.
I feel bad for those that ordered these $850 AA sets, and the Dealers that will have to once again clean up Lionel’s mess.
Lionel needs to quickly make changes to stop theses errors from reaccuring, and regain our confidence.
I will not be ordering from the new Lionel catalog or future ones until I see Lionel’s quality control improve.
I think Lionel needs a big management change, these guys are not getting it done.
IMO, the worst part of this is the lack of communication. I prefer the brighter, glossy look in general. I know its not realistic and that's fine with me. For example, the Texas Special F3 set Lionel made in the late 90's had a beautiful, bright glossy finish. The E8 Texas Special Legacy set they brought out a few years later had a dull finish.
You couldn't tell either of these from the catalog pictures. It only takes a few words for Lionel to supplement the catalog and tell us what they're doing or trying to do. Assuming that they know what they are doing. Sadly, I've reached my conclusion. I guess everyone has to arrive at their own decision as to how to deal with this issue.
Gerry
Well John if they have to be stripped and repainted why buy them?
A lot of people seem to be assuming this is yet another poor quality control issue, when in reality it most likely is the result of Lionel cutting corners and using their catalogs "legal fine print" stating- "catalog rendition, final product subject to change" to justify their actions! Anyone remember the recent Five Star General pictured with nice brass tim, but delivered with mustard yellow and grey paint instead? Typical behavior that a lot seem to just continue to overlook for some crazy reason...
We seem to need to add a new forum on OGR called “Customer QC’ed Lionel Products”. We would need a few brave souls purchase new products released by Lionel and evaluate. Then start a thread posting their review.
i would suppose this might severely conflict with Lionel’s BTO, but there are consequences of poor quality.
I have been pretty much a Lionel-only customer for locomotives and rolling stock, but currently I am adding Atlas because of the recent QC problems at Lionel.
RickO posted:breezinup posted:Personally, I prefer hearing all opinions, including those that may differ from mine. There is frequently more to learn from differing opinions than from similar opinions. Criticising others for voicing their opinions is not an appropriate path to follow. Just my opinion.
Opinions are fine when it comes to "what type of smoke fluid do you prefer?" ," which track do you like best?" or "how high should my bench work be"?etc.
There are 2 threads going where the "fact" is ,Lionel painted f units silver when they should have been grey.
No one's opinion can change that.
With all due respect, Ricko, I believe you are missing breezinup’s point. Snarky comments were made about someone who hadn’t even commented on the thread - I agree with breezinup that such behavior is inappropriate. In addition, I believe the snarky comments were preceded by an opinion that some people won’t care about the difference. That is, IMHO, a perfectly valid opinion. There was the recent uproar over the Lionel E8 windows - they had an unexplained line across the windshield. I have a set of the Erie’s... I see the line... it doesn’t bother me in the least - it is a toy, albeit an expensive one.
I get the concept of the "toy" look, fantasy schemes, whatever (if that is what someone is into)...
I did NOT order/buy a toy or fantasy scheme... I ordered Lionel's Legacy "Top of the Line" product. If one is going to drop $1,500 on an ABBA set , it ought to be a very close facsimile.
I can not accept that an entirely wrong color is "road specific detailing" or an "accurate reproduction"...
All this from the 2017 Vol.2 catalog I ordered from. If this is what Lionel intended to deliver, this is false advertising. If nothing else, it is bad business in my opinion.
This was my foray into legacy, and impetus for buying the Legacy system in the near future. These are going back, and picking up the legacy system is now off the list of things to do, as is reserving any more BTO product without seeing production samples...
-Jim
I guess I really haven’t a dog in this fight but; reading the comments on this and the T&P thread and recollecting similar threads on other products; I sometimes wonder how many times people have to get punched before it starts to hurt.
As a general rule; I no longer want anything that hasn’t already been manufactured and on the market long enough to get some sense that it looks right and works well. This may occasionally result in my paying a bit more for something I really want but; it eliminates these issues associated with buying an item based on a catalog illustration and then receiving something that either doesn’t run or look right.
Curt
I don't usually chime in on these types of threads,but I can see why the poster is upset. lionel thinks it's legacy electronics package is so special it charges $100 or more for most engines compared to mth. I personaly like legacy and own several legacy engines. they were picked up mostly second hand though. that said I am buying more mth dcs engines now. especially when buying new engines. thanks too the new mth wifi app running mth ps2 or ps3 dcs engines is so easy. I have noticed that my mth preimer engines look more finely detailed than some of my legacy engines. never really noticed this type of wrong paint color though. for a model costing so much this is truly unacceptable and I would send them back. possibly if enough buyers of these sent theirs back lionel would repaint the shells and make them right and return them to all the buyers as previous poster suggested. I know this is a stretch, but one can hope. I am not one for boycots,but maybe lionel needs a wake up call. if preorders go way down in the next couple of years maybe these types of big mistakes will not get over looked and more overseas QC will get priority.
lionel realy needs there own factory overseas like mth with people they can trust. by outsourcing these high end models to various small china factories here and there the QC from concept to final production is obviously just not 100% thier yet. with a deticated factory lionel could at least ensure the people in charge of the production lines would hopefully catch these types of errors. plus maybe some full time american lionel workers could have there offices there full time working in partnership with the model makers and oversee the manufacturing QC of these high end product so they do get made to spec and not get painted the wrong color or parts changed at the last minute.
I am sure the worker applying the paint knew nothing about the models real color. he just uses the paint he was given. the first test shells should have been flagged in this case. paint line shut down and new paint mixed and given to that employee. this is where IMO lionel having its own deticated factory and trusted personel would have been able to stop these types of huge errors. this keeps us happy in the long run and lionels bottom line safe from these types of errors in the future.
Don't kid yourself someone or someones up high in Lionel Management made a decision not to use the colors researched by the those down low. Why?? Cost$$$.
I cannot imagine how that the RIGHT color of paint costs a whole lot more than the WRONG color of paint. Unless like some have suggested, they had some leftover SF silver laying around.
Not understanding Why Lionel cannot just supply paint maps to their Factories, this mistake may be okay for LionChief but is unacceptable for anything BTO.
Here's what Scaletrains shows to their customers, and I'm sure they supply a very detailed chart to their factory as well.
Off the rails.
You do have choices. Support the importer who produces models you like. Lionel’s business model is not the same as that of scale model importers.
Wow,wrong colors on the f3,maybe they need to just bring the shells to north Carolina shops to be painted by their personal here,instead of China. And just maybe bring back Mike Regan to run the show for loinel
"Only a small percentage of 3 rail buyers care about prototype fidelity."
OK - I am going to be rude, here (see T&P thread): the above statement is complete hogwash, and someone is not paying attention to this hobby. Or is an un-enlightened 2-railer (I said un-enlightened 2-railer; not all 2-railers).
Fortunately, I ordered neither set of flawed diesels, as these 2 roads are not "on my list"; but it could happen to most any item's decoration - so who's next? Another reason to go NYC freight, PC or NS for your diesels.
-----
Lionel has consistently gotten decoration and/or paint wrong on its Louisville and Nashville locos - steam and diesel. Tender "L&N" wrong style on the 0-8-0 coal bunker; early and only briefly-used lettering style on the L&N USRA Heavy Mike (I own it) - which is not "wrong" - except some of it is a bit mis-aligned; diesel grays are often bluish.
Why so much of this? Or it seems to be so much.
As a Lionel dealer that has a very large NYO&W customer base and a very, very large investment in this Lionel NYO&W F3 release.....
I am speechless.
I think part of lionels problem is too many sku's. from starter sets with mickey mouse ears that to me are just stupid. that's just me talking btw. to lionchief plus stuff not to mention all the accsesorys. now they want to enter the rivit counting HO world. good luck with that one. if on the BTO high end market side of things you cant get it right. maybe just maybe you have to many irons in the fire.just my opinion for what it's worth.
As has been mentioned before lower line stuff like starter sets for example. there is room for error or mistakes on colors cause most little kids 5 to 10 years old dont always care or notice. high end products in the $550 to $1000 or more ranges aimed at the discriminating hobbies better well be right on the money as close to prototype as possible. fragile details left off a model on purpouse that may just break in shipping is one thing, but the right color,come on thats just not acceptable! I too would send it back.
Would love to hear Lionel 's position in this discussion...
Guys....I understand your frustration but continued personal and nasty comments are not going to be tolerated. There are ways to express yourself without having to make some of the comments I have had to spend part of my afternoon editing and/or deleting. Either make your feelings made in a civil manner or don't comment at all. There are a handful of you that have been getting worse lately and it is getting old...perhaps it is time to clean house again?
Alan
Glad l am only into steam, where one shade of black will pass for another, but SP passenger car shades could be screwed up royally. Steam colors on early engines are subject to this problem....and..what color maroon were some Southern steamers?
I am curious about those who say they are going back, and never realized that train stores would just take them back and refund your money. I'm remembering from the Davis Trains days that if you were not happy and left with it, you got store credit minus 15% restocking fee. I didn't realizer train stores were so liberal with the return policy.
OGR PUBLISHER posted:Guys....I understand your frustration but continued personal and nasty comments are not going to be tolerated... Either make your feelings made in a civil manner or don't comment at all.
Alan
Amen. Thank you Alan.
My suggestion to you guys that bought these models and the MOPAC models is to email Scott Mann at 3rd Rail that you’d like correct versions of these F3s. If he gets enough interest he will add them to his current F3 reservation list and then you’ll have the opportunity to order models I guarantee you will be very pleased with
RickO posted:breezinup posted:Personally, I prefer hearing all opinions, including those that may differ from mine. There is frequently more to learn from differing opinions than from similar opinions. Criticising others for voicing their opinions is not an appropriate path to follow. Just my opinion.
Opinions are fine when it comes to "what type of smoke fluid do you prefer?" ," which track do you like best?" or "how high should my bench work be"?etc.
There are 2 threads going where the "fact" is ,Lionel painted f units silver when they should have been grey.
No one's opinion can change that.
Yes, but someone is being criticised here who hasn't even said anything. He may very well agree about the paint! But he's being pre-judged when he hasn't even voiced an opinion, and pre-emptive critical comments are made.
Apples55 above is right. It has nothing to do with whether an opinion deals with shades of paint or types of smoke fluid. That's not the point. It has to do with criticising someone, and sort of making fun of him, before that person even has a chance to speak. I don't think anyone wants to be ridiculed on a public forum. I don't think it's appropriate to limit topics upon which opinions may be made, either. You can express opinions about smoke fluids or which track is best, but you can't express opinions about the application of paint colors?
None of this is a huge deal, and I've done it, too, but something to consider. As always, just my opinion.
Thanks for your input, Alan.
I’m just gonna sit over here and wait until my theater car arrives in 2029.......Hopefully it doesen’t come out of the box looking like a Union Pacific 49er... So sorry to those whose eyes and wallets have been damaged by the paint jobs on these units.
Cincytrains posted:I am curious about those who say they are going back, and never realized that train stores would just take them back and refund your money. I'm remembering from the Davis Trains days that if you were not happy and left with it, you got store credit minus 15% restocking fee. I didn't realizer train stores were so liberal with the return policy.
No. There are a number who still charge a restocking fee. I do not do business with those retailers and in my opinion, no one should.
-Greg
A restocking fee if they can't deliver the product or it isn't right ?? I don't think so.
Matt Makens posted:My suggestion to you guys that bought these models and the MOPAC models is to email Scott Mann at 3rd Rail that you’d like correct versions of these F3s. If he gets enough interest he will add them to his current F3 reservation list and then you’ll have the opportunity to order models I guarantee you will be very pleased with
And there ya go! Do business with an establishment that "gets it". Sunset / 3rd Rail customer service / support is exemplary.
Regards,
GNNPNUT
@T1Titan_ZachF posted:Has anyone gotten their pennsy ones yet? I’m curious to see the paintjob on them
My PRR ABBA set arrived a couple of days ago. I haven't opened it yet, as I have been busy with some projects. I am very apprehensive about doing so, given what I have read on this board. Can't say I am totally surprised, as I have seen a clear downturn in the quality of Lionel products over the last couple of years, although up to now those issues were primarily about their freight and passenger cars. It is extremely concerning to see those quality issues spreading now to the new Lionel engines.
I have also seen some very bad decisions made by the current Lionel management team. However, what I find most disturbing is that when you raise questions about decisions made to produce lower quality products or the products themselves, Lionel does not even give you the courtesy of a response. That is horrible customer service. Lionel needs to take a hard look at its current philosophy and attitude and make a significant course correction.
I am refusing my O&W ABBA set. I should have refused the O&W NW-2 as well. But I figured a little weathering might help what I like to call the "Ghost" paint scheme on that.
As an O&W fan, I am fully aware that the grey the O&W used is subject to interpretation, just look at the various shades used on HO renditions from different manufacturers. The Lionel NW2 was clearly off, i’m guessing the faded paint off the surviving #116 was used as the prototype. Ok, I can live with that mistake, unfortunate, but it happens. At least is was vaguely grey. The silver on the F-units is terrible though. No image I know of shows them that color and should have been caught during some sort production inspection.
I am a MTH guy myself, and I did not purchase Lionel’s units, but feel for the guys who did. Our cult following doesn’t get many items to buy given the small size of the road, so it is tremendously disappointing when the opportunity to represent our road comes and is met with this. I hope the issue can be resolved so O&W fans everywhere can proudly run their equipment.
Chris,
I agree with you 100%. Well said. I think you hit the nail on the head with your comments on both the 116 and the new F3s.
Chris
LVHR
Another NYO&W fan.
Lionel’s Mission Statement, perhaps it needs to be revisited and changed accordingly!
Our mission is to develop, manufacture, market and service the best electric toy trains and accessories in the world within a competitive environment.
Lead the toy train industry with innovative engineering, flawless manufacturing and superior customer service. Employ the best people and inspire teamwork and strong communications in an atmosphere of teamwork, trust, openness and innovation. Expose children to the magic of Lionel trains and sprout interest in the toy train hobby. Work closely with our dealer network and share with them some of the decision making processes for future Lionel products.
Keep the magic of the Lionel tradition living for another 100 years.
Why not wait and see what Lionel's response to the complaints are before going full nuclear? Save yourselves some coronary artery corrosion. It's rare that any problem is best addressed by vitriol.
Thought it might be useful to say that clearly given some posts by those whose real hobby seems to be getting angry at stuff. 
Simon Winter posted:There is a LONG standing precedent for this sort of thing! Back in '57 there was an Illinois Central F3. Nice looking loco, but IC never had any F units! The colors were correct, or shall we say they matched the prototype E units!
Simon
That was a different Lionel Corporation and different times with different expectations back then (BTW, the 1957 IC brown was also too light but I expect there were few complaints.)
Rusty
I believe that it has already been pointed out that when the Western Pacific F3s were made with a nose decal that people didn't think was acceptable, they produced a new run of shells. Long time ago. Don't know how they are going to deal with the dissatisfaction of this group of unhappy campers. I'd guess if the complaints are numerous, they'll do something. If the complaints are only a few people they will say "sorry" and leave it at that.
Misinterpretations in Lionel's history abound. Most can be chalked up to the artistic license around the word 'toy'. And not all of them impacted final delivered product.
Remember the infamous 'Black Bonnet' catalog interpretation of Santa Fe's silver-sided F's??? As I recall, the story is that this was a catalog artist's interpretation of the reflectivity of the shiny silver body. Of course, in this case, Lionel never produced a 'Black Bonnet' in that early time frame. It wasn't until K-Line had the moxie to do so several decades later. Since that infamous catalog....from the days of JLC, himself!!!...was never pulled from distribution, why would we now wonder about these faux pas?
If it were only the T&P F's this time around, I'd say do what Martha Stewart once advised..."Need to suck it in...!" But that the NYO&W F's are from the same pickle vat?......after the catalog promises of these "Top of the Line", "Accurate Reproductions"?....
To borrow/modify a famous Shakespearean thought....'Something's not right in the state of North Carolina!'
October's York meet/presentations should be interesting.....
KD
dkdkrd posted:
Remember the infamous 'Black Bonnet' catalog interpretation of Santa Fe's silver-sided F's??? As I recall, the story is that this was a catalog artist's interpretation of the reflectivity of the shiny silver body. Of course, in this case, Lionel never produced a 'Black Bonnet' in that early time frame. It wasn't until K-Line had the moxie to do so several decades later.
KD
And now the "Black Bonnet" has reached such a legendary status as folks are willing to pay for the inaccuracy because it's "cool." The latest being a limited run of Legacy PA's. 
Sometimes it seems some of this "fantasy" stuff borders on abusing the licensing granted by the railroads.(Opinion) Oh, well...
I don't have a dog in the T&P or NYO&W silver fight, but I can see where guys would be upset. The guys that bought these locomotives certainly have the right to expect the colors used to be as correct as possible.
Rusty
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