Benchwork - Wiring - adding elevations

John, that sounds good to me to have the main lines power up right away, but not the sidings.

Thanks Mark, just haven't had a large layout with sidings etc.

John, I haven't had such a large layout either.  I'll give an example from my small layout to explain why I answered as I did.  I have 7 blocks on my mainline.  I use the remote to turn on each block separately, one by one.  It takes a few seconds to scroll through all of them.  I would like to, but I haven't taken the time to see how I can make that a one button push to turn all 7 one.  Definitely, I would power up both mainlines on startup if I was building your layout!

Mark, that makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the explanation. I can do that default change in software in the home built AIU interface boards. I'll let you know how it works. btw are you planning on going to the greenberg show 7/23/22? I was thinking about going but not sure why I would go at this point. LOL

Thanks

John

John, I am thinking about going to the Greenberg show that day.  I'm on a new medication for my sciatic nerve.  If it starts working for me, I can make the trip.  I haven't gone since last summer I think because it was too painful to drive down there.  I'm doing a good bit better.  As for why I would go, it would be just to look around and see the layouts.  If I buy anything, it would be something little.  I am in the selling mode for engines and cars right now. 

Hello All,

Just a minor update - All remote control block power and turnouts are working from AIU's Putting 1st power panel together, it will have the MTH electronics on it. One TIU, 3 AIU's, three barking watch dogs, Wifi unit, and power distribution with circuit breakers and TVS's.

The second power panel will have the lionel legacy and any thing that I forgot... lol

Still working on an outside project for the CEO, so progress will remain slow for the short term.

Thanks for all the help everyone so graciously gives, it has been invaluable.

John, thank you for the update!  You are doing it quite similar to what I did.  It is working well for me.

Yes the outside work has bogged me down, especially a project I hadn’t planned on, but was pointed out to me by a neighbor.  Whoops!!

Helping each other is what this Forum does best!  Thank you for your help as well!

Thanks Mark, I am amazed at what you are doing on your layout! Just amazing what you are doing in the space you have. Great Job!

Thank you, John!  I keep thinking of things to enhance the operation as I go along.  Maybe I wouldn’t be doing that if the space was larger.

It is good to keep looking at the entire layout as it progresses, you sometimes get a better idea when you see things in real life 3d than scarm images. Scarm is really a great program, but I for one have trouble envisioning how the layout will really appear and function with all the scenery completed, buildings built and scenes set. I am sure I will be going through the same as you are, or at least I hope I will. I have just about completed the control panel, waiting on PSX circuit breakers. At this point I have three power districts set up from one TIU, three AIU's with micro controller wired to provide wireless connection to block relays and turnouts. Also have three barking watchdogs with a ton of help from GunrunnerJohn and his thread. It will be powered by one Lionel ZW transformer, which I hope can handle the track power requirements. I'll have other supplies for accessories, building lighting etc. I'll snap a pic when I get the circuit breakers on. I have been reading about these circuit breakers and I am not sure at what trip current I should set them at and how to set them for heavier loads >10amp . Not sure if I will need >8amp setting which is done by jumpers. I search around this forum to see if I can find this information. I am sure it was talked about somewhere.

John, I set my PDX jumper to 8 amps as was suggested somewhere on my 76-page epic thread.  J6 terminals 1 & 2.

Thanks Mark, Yes your build is Epic! TONS of great information for sure.

Here is a pic of my control panel so far. I am planning to put the breakers at the top left feeding the TIU  I am looking at cleaning up the AIU wiring. I didn't pay too much attention to detail because I didn't know if it would work or not LOL

John, your board looks neat.  I like your board.  I never thought of putting the boards on top of your AIUs.  I could have done that with my relay boards and saved space.

At this point I am waiting for PSXX-AC circuit breakers from DCC industries. Seems they have a new version, which hopefully will be available by Dec. 2022. So I went on to putting together my block detection modules. They simply monitor outside rail to be connected to the opposite outside rail by train wheels. I do have opto isolators and spike suppression for this circuit. Once the block is occupied, this board will transmit that info wirelessly to home base which I am planning on using to control signals and such. Lots of blocks, so I hope I can keep track of which boards are monitoring which blocks. lol For signals the number of blocks drops from 35 to 10 for the mainline and then spurs, whisker tracks and yard take up the remaining blocks. Also am working on the plywood base over the L-girders. I have been reluctant to do more wood working as it will force me to work under the table for the remaining wiring. I'll leave then removable until I have to secure them and firgure out do I cover all plywood with homosote or just homosote under the tracks??? I am sure fall yard work will take priority, however after that it should be clearer sailing.

btw the detection circuit will be controlled by an ESP8266-01 (which imho is a wifi mini-arduino, uses same programming language C++) transmitting info to an ESP32 which again is in same programming family with more I/O pins available.

Here is Schematic for detection board.

Where you might place structures. Covering the plywood base with Homesote has one advantage. If your building the structure and want it at ground level. You can build it on a plywood base at the bench and detail around it easily. Then with a knife just cut out the homesote and drop the sceniced structure in place. Just make sure you don’t glue the homesote to the plywood.

Also if you change up say a yard area. It’s already in place for the change.

Excellent Idea!

John, I am not up to date on C++ or Arduinos, but your plan sounds great!!  Leaving the benchwork open for wiring will pay many dividends to you!!  Yes, you do have a lot of trees around your house.  I hope you have some mechanized help for cleaning them up!!

Dave does have a good plan on the Homasote for building drop ins and changing your mind on things as you go.

Well I am trying to figure out a final track plan, which will drive me over the edge with revisions. Although I am getting to the point of installing the occupancy detectors, and need the track plan finalized (or at least close to final) to locate the detectors. I will not like working under the layout to do anything that could be done now before the top is installed. Right now I have all the plywood cut, fitted and laying on top so I can easily remove it to add wiring and detectors. Looking to the future, I do not know or have a good idea on laying track. Ok that does make me sound like a dunce, however I have 1/2" plywood, sheets of homosote, and some insulating foam board for the top. Now my quandary is - do I cookie cutter plywood with homosote for any elevations? What is that sequence? Lay plywood then homosote then all track and trace the sections for cookie cutter? Or does the plywood/homosote top get laid and build elevations with additional plywood/homosote track bed? Then how do I incorporate the foam? I would like to have some height added to the "Flat" sections so ravines and streams/gullies can be cut out to get rid of the flat layer look.

So basically HELP!

John, when I used a cookie cutter, I laid out my track where I want it and mark the plywood at least a half inch beyond the ties so you know where to cut.  I then removed the track and cut the plywood.  I then fastened the cut plywood to the risers and cut out the Homasote to match.  A variation could be to mark the Homasote with the cut plywood pieces before fastening to the risers.  Just make sure you overlap the joints so you don’t have the edges of the plywood and Homasote at the same spot.  Is the foam intended for a scenery base?

Hi Mark

Thanks Mark for you valuable input. Yes foam is to accommodate scenery, such that it will elevate track so culverts and streams could be cut out going below track plane. So in a lot of places there will  be track on foam on homosote on plywood. Not sure if this is a good approach? Thoughts anyone!

Here are some pics of the plywood top

John, yes, I see what you mean for the foam.  I think it would work for a short distance like a culvert etc.  the photographs look good John.  You have done a lot!

John wrote”So in a lot of places there will  be track on foam on homosote on plywood. Not sure if this is a good approach? Thoughts anyone!”

Well John did say anyone,

I would lay foam across the entire top surface reasons;

might give lower decibel count

will be easier to level  across entire top surface rather that 3 different materials

will let you use just 1 type of fastener

with any thickness of 1/4 or greater you will be able to sculpt your landscape(right word?)

be careful when melting styrofoam and careful glueing but other wise really I like it.

Did get super sick of the color pink however.

Worked for me.

Good luck and happy modeling

Steven

@train steve posted:

John wrote”So in a lot of places there will  be track on foam on homosote on plywood. Not sure if this is a good approach? Thoughts anyone!”

Well John did say anyone,

I would lay foam across the entire top surface reasons;

might give lower decibel count

will be easier to level  across entire top surface rather that 3 different materials

will let you use just 1 type of fastener

with any thickness of 1/4 or greater you will be able to sculpt your landscape(right word?)

be careful when melting styrofoam and careful glueing but other wise really I like it.

Did get super sick of the color pink however.

Worked for me.

Good luck and happy modeling

Steven

Thanks Steven, what did you secure the foam with? What type of glue? Did you have any issues with running track and trains on foam?

I agree about the pink getting a bit much, I was able to get blue

thanks

John, while I’m far from done, I did use 3/4” foam board over everything. I secured it with a basic glue using my caulking gun. Next I painted it a dirt brown ($13.00 a gallon at Lowes). Additional ground cover will be used but everything has dirt underneath. I also painted the edges to match the trim of the fascia. I also cut carpet padding for under the track; which will also be ballasted. I’m very pleased with the process.

Jay

John, I’ve been following along. Great looking space and layout. On page 22 you show a lighted switch stand. If you have one up and running. Would love an opinion of how it functions and ease of hookup.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

John, while I’m far from done, I did use 3/4” foam board over everything. I secured it with a basic glue using my caulking gun. Next I painted it a dirt brown ($13.00 a gallon at Lowes). Additional ground cover will be used but everything has dirt underneath. I also painted the edges to match the trim of the fascia. I also cut carpet padding for under the track; which will also be ballasted. I’m very pleased with the process.

Jay

HI Jay,

Thanks for your input on the foam board. How did you secure the track to the foam board? Did you glue the carpet padding to the foam? How did you secure the track? These questions I am sure are extremely basic. However I have never done a large layout and I am just getting familar with the materials and reasons for using them on the layout. All help is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks

@Dave_C posted:

John, I’ve been following along. Great looking space and layout. On page 22 you show a lighted switch stand. If you have one up and running. Would love an opinion of how it functions and ease of hookup.

Hi Dave, I wish I had anything up and walking lol... That said, I did purchase one of those manual lighted throws and did run into an issue. Not certain,but clearance for the throw was an issue. I can locate it and check it out again. They are (for me) on the pricey side for sure which is a consideration I have to always contend with, as this hobby in general is not cheap. Give me a little time and I'll dig it out and re-evaluate. This time I'll write down my thoughts as the memory banks fail more often than not.

ok I found that throw and it doesn't have enough throw for ross switches. The issue is the clearance between wood ties and the throw arm. Not sure how to explain it, other than to get the full throw, some wood tie needs to be removed. I was going to call them for help, but alas real life took over and if you didn't remind me, I would continue on until I got back to switches. Hope that helps

John, that is a good point, the memory banks do fail.  Documentation is always a good idea.

@Aegis21 posted:

HI Jay,

Thanks for your input on the foam board. How did you secure the track to the foam board? Did you glue the carpet padding to the foam? How did you secure the track? These questions I am sure are extremely basic. However I have never done a large layout and I am just getting familar with the materials and reasons for using them on the layout. All help is GREATLY appreciated! Thanks

As I mentioned John I’m far from done. I wasn’t planning on gluing the padding; unless it’s required in specific areas. I have my two mainlines operable for just looping the trains. The track is not secured because I’m still making adjustments. None of the switches have been installed either. However, as is, there haven’t been any problems. My inclination would be to glue the track. Screws into the wood would not be helpful towards sound deadening.

Jay

OK Here is another question from someone (me) who has been out of the hobby for 55 years. Uncoupling cars? I have noticed many new (if not all) engines have electrical couplers that can be remotely controlled. Do the cars have the same feature, and if not how do you uncouple them? Manually, magnetically (like the old days) or istalling electrical couplers on cars? Besides the obvious reason for the question, if remote uncoupler tracks or magnetic need to be installed, I would like to plan for them in advance and set up some remote control for those devices.

Again Any and All help is greatly appreciated.

@Tranquil Hollow RR posted:

As I mentioned John I’m far from done. I wasn’t planning on gluing the padding; unless it’s required in specific areas. I have my two mainlines operable for just looping the trains. The track is not secured because I’m still making adjustments. None of the switches have been installed either. However, as is, there haven’t been any problems. My inclination would be to glue the track. Screws into the wood would not be helpful towards sound deadening.

Jay

Jay thanks for the info. I can see where screwing into the wood is not optimal at all. Would ballasting the track with ballast and scenic cement (diluted Elmers glue) be enough to secure it to the layout?

John magnetic uncouplers have been used for years. You can plan for them. But it seems as your layout evolves and you start running trains they aren’t always where you want them to be. They also involve extra track joints. I think it’s best to leave them out of the plan till you start running trains. Then you will know where they are needed. There have been numerous posts on how to add just the magnet function using  old Lionel magnets into existing trackage. Cut the track rail and drop them in place. But that may also involve climbing up on the layout when the time comes.

I switched to Kadee’s many years ago. I had my share of Gargraves magnets. Worked great uncoupling cars. The issue for me was getting the cars coupled up without chasing them down the tracks. The engines today are capable of running so slow.  Some of the newer cars really roll easy. In many cases you needed wheelstops or bumpers.

John, I agree with Dave’s comments.  I did as he said and waited until running trains to install uncouplers.  I did not replace couplers as he did however.

John, FWIW, I used 3/4" blue foam on my layout and secured it to the plywood top using Liquid Nails construction adhesive applied with a caulking gun. After gluing, I immediately placed heavy books and objects on top to make sure it stayed flat and let it dry overnight.

I filled any seams with vinyl spackling compound and sanded smooth. I masked off streets and roadways with duct tape and then painted the foam top in sections with earth brown latex paint from one of the big box stores. While the paint was still wet, I sprinkled a combination of fine green and yellow WS turf onto the paint until I got the right mix of brown, green and yellow "dirt" I wanted and then moved on to the next section and repeated until done. By applying the fine turf while the paint is still wet, it sets into the paint and doesn't fly away as easily.

I didn't worry about getting paint on the sides, because I knew I was going to put up thin, wooden (1/4" luan plywood) edging which would hide any drips. Once the top was dry, I removed the duct tape and painted the roadways a latex grey concrete color and added stripes with a white paint pen.

I inserted screws through the track and into the foam, but not long enough to penetrate the plywood decking. I put some CA glue on the tip of each screw to help hold it into the foam. My experience is that you don't really need to overtighten the screws in the foam. They're just there to keep the track from shifting around.     

@Dave_C posted:

John magnetic uncouplers have been used for years. You can plan for them. But it seems as your layout evolves and you start running trains they aren’t always where you want them to be. They also involve extra track joints. I think it’s best to leave them out of the plan till you start running trains. Then you will know where they are needed. There have been numerous posts on how to add just the magnet function using  old Lionel magnets into existing trackage. Cut the track rail and drop them in place. But that may also involve climbing up on the layout when the time comes.

I switched to Kadee’s many years ago. I had my share of Gargraves magnets. Worked great uncoupling cars. The issue for me was getting the cars coupled up without chasing them down the tracks. The engines today are capable of running so slow.  Some of the newer cars really roll easy. In many cases you needed wheelstops or bumpers.

Thanks Dave, Mark and everyone else on couplers. Makes sense now to wait until things are running and I find out where they would work the best for this layout.

@Richie C. posted:

John, FWIW, I used 3/4" blue foam on my layout and secured it to the plywood top using Liquid Nails construction adhesive applied with a caulking gun. After gluing, I immediately placed heavy books and objects on top to make sure it stayed flat and let it dry overnight.

I inserted screws through the track and into the foam, but not long enough to penetrate the plywood decking. I put some CA glue on the tip of each screw to help hold it into the foam. My experience is that you don't really need to overtighten the screws in the foam. They're just there to keep the track from shifting around.     

Richie, Thanks a ton for the details and pics! I noticed you did not cookie cutter the track you elevated. What did you use for roadbed on the elevated sections? How did you get the transition from flat to start to elevate? It appears you just used some gradualted blocking supports for the fastrack. Again thanks for the info.

The outside elevated loop is an O-36 curve with O-48 easements to increase the radius enough to clear the O-31 curve on the layout base.

The elevated loop rises to the height of the rock piers that are part of and on either side of the Lionel lighted bridge and then transitions back down. I used the MTH graduated trestle set for the risers and basically tried to set them at each track connection point so that they supported the track as well as elevated it. In order to get the rise as smooth as possible, some of the MTH trestles had to be set in the middle of the track pieces or shimmed with thin wooden shims.

Overs the years and especially as Lionel has made larger (and heavier) engines that will operate on smaller curves (like my LC + 2.0 Big Boy), I've had to reinforce the elevated portion by adding upright a couple of pieces of 2X4's cut to the proper height and painted battleship grey to match the rest of the risers. Where the MTH trestles were not quite high enough to reach the proper height, I cut thin pieces of a 2X4 to use as a shim under the trestles and painted them grey as well.

One "trick" I also used was to cut the wooden shims at a slight angle and to shim each MTH trestle so that the outside of the curve was tilted slightly (about 1/16") higher than the inside. This creates a nice a cambered curve and helps keep any wayward engines from falling off the outside of the elevated curve.   

The Fastrack is basically strong enough to support itself with just the MTH trestles and wooden risers. However, if I had to do it all over again or if I was using open trackage, I would take the assembled elevated track curve and place it on a thin sheet of plywood (like 1/4" luan) and trace it out and then cut it out with a jigsaw and then attach it to the bottom of the track with screws, so you have a rigid support plate. I would then use the WS graduated foam riser set to make my elevated curve or carve your own riser out of foam or build wooden piers. The foam risers can be covered with scenic material to look like a hill.

I used this type of plate assembly on another area of my layout where I had an elevated siding and built wooden piers out of 1" square pine stock.

Richie, you have a good point about the ‘if I had to do over’ that you would cut some lauan to size for extra support.  I used the Woodland Scenics risers for my rear grade and a set of K-Line plastic trestles for my front grade.  I played risers at every track joint, GarGraves, and used shims like you did.  Now that I am going to move my town to the upper level, I’m going to is my leftover Woodland Scenics only because I found more I bought years ago.

@Mark Boyce did you use screws or anything to hold your risers/trestles to the table?

@BillYo414 posted:

@Mark Boyce did you use screws or anything to hold your risers/trestles to the table?

Not Mark, but the MTH trestles did come with pre-drilled screw holes in the bases for attaching to the layout top and I used them.

I don't believe the WS foam risers have any physical attachment points, but I'm guessing they could be glued in place with a construction type adhesive.

Yes the K-Line trestles have holes for securing them to the table.  There are also little steel brackets and screws to secure the track to the top of the trestles.

The woodland Scenics material is intended to be secured with glue compatible with the foam.  I used cookie cutter method on layouts years ago but opted for the foam risers this go round.  It provides a very strong base, but you have to figure how to do the vertical easements at the bottom and top of grades.

Thank you @Richie C. and @Mark Boyce. I was debating on the glue or screws for the trestle I plan to make and I thought maybe having the track secured to the table before the trestle would negate the need for attached the trestle to the table.

@BillYo414 posted:

Thank you @Richie C. and @Mark Boyce. I was debating on the glue or screws for the trestle I plan to make and I thought maybe having the track secured to the table before the trestle would negate the need for attached the trestle to the table.

I think it all depends on the style of trestle and whether the trestle is below table top enabling the trains to cross a deep chasm or lifting track to a higher level like Richie’s and mine

I would be adding this as a high line for my blast furnace. I need to get five or six inches of lift. I do get a little bit squeamish putting a Legacy engine up off the ground haha

I can appreciate the willies with a Legacy engine in the air!  Sturdy supports.

The screws certainly help anchor the supports and cambering the track with shims also helps insure that the engines stay on track. Haven't lost one in 7 years (knocking on wood as I type this).

Where is magnetraction when we need it ?

Great info everyone!  I will try the Luan on the elevated sections and will definitely use angled shims to bank the curves for sure

I have seen both 2x4 trestle support and WS foam supports. Any pros and cons of each?

It's peculiar. I currently have a trestle on the test layout that goes up 5 inches but it's very well supported (like a big wedge instead of trestle). I know the track can't tip over but I still get nervous seeing it go up haha

@Aegis21 posted:

Great info everyone!  I will try the Luan on the elevated sections and will definitely use angled shims to bank the curves for sure

I have seen both 2x4 trestle support and WS foam supports. Any pros and cons of each?

I think they are pretty equal in terms of providing adequate support, with a slight edge to the foam risers.

Part of the answer depends on the 'look" you are going after. The trestles have a more nostalgic look, while the risers can be scenically covered with foam, plaster, etc. and ground cover to look like one long hill that the train is traversing.

OTOH, the space between trestle supports can also be used to place scene "vignettes". For instance, I have a log cabin in between two trestles in one location and a hobo campground in another and this fishing scene in another.

If your looking to elevate your curves and your using Gargraves or Atlas. A old school way to do it. Is to pick up some n scale cork roadbed. The kind Midwest sells that’s is split down the middle. Just slip it under your outside edge of the track under the rail. It will easily follow the curve and raise it about 1/8 “.

@Richie C. posted:

I think they are pretty equal in terms of providing adequate support, with a slight edge to the foam risers.

Part of the answer depends on the 'look" you are going after. The trestles have a more nostalgic look, while the risers can be scenically covered with foam, plaster, etc. and ground cover to look like one long hill that the train is traversing.

OTOH, the space between trestle supports can also be used to place scene "vignettes". For instance, I have a log cabin in between two trestles in one location and a hobo campground in another and this fishing scene in another.

I think Richie's comment covers both methods well.

@BillYo414 posted:

It's peculiar. I currently have a trestle on the test layout that goes up 5 inches but it's very well supported (like a big wedge instead of trestle). I know the track can't tip over but I still get nervous seeing it go up haha

Oh I certainly can feel the apprehension for sure!

Now here is another newbie question. How high of an elevation is needed for a train to pass under the elevated section safely?

@Richie C. posted:

I think they are pretty equal in terms of providing adequate support, with a slight edge to the foam risers.

Part of the answer depends on the 'look" you are going after. The trestles have a more nostalgic look, while the risers can be scenically covered with foam, plaster, etc. and ground cover to look like one long hill that the train is traversing.

OTOH, the space between trestle supports can also be used to place scene "vignettes". For instance, I have a log cabin in between two trestles in one location and a hobo campground in another and this fishing scene in another.

Great work on the scene! This pic really brings out your point of having the trestle provide more opportunity for creativity.

Aegis21 wrote”Thanks Steven, what did you secure the foam with? What type of glue? Did you have any issues with running track and trains on foam?”

To secure foam,I tested several types of glue, the best for me was PPG Gripper a primer and adhesive. It could be painted on for better coverage. I also used weights to aid bonding.  Takes a bit of time to cure,over night, but it works foam on foam and foam to plywood. Also tried construction adhesive tubes made for foam and those worked ok.

I’m running first plywood then foam board then outdoor carpeting. Some of the layered foam is 5 inch thick, no real issues but had to use 3 inch screws with coarse threads to hold track down, some dipped in adhesive. The lower level had no issues because the screw length could fasten into the plywood.

Ultimately the bonds on the foam and track are very securely attached.

Hope this helps

Steven Taylor

Thanks Steven that does help a lot!

It has been a while since last updates, so this is what has been going on. I have finalized, tested (without track or trains) remote control of power blocks, turnouts and remote occupancy detectors all installed in layout. I have defaulted the mainlines to all power up with initial power being applied. Spurs, yard, whisker tracks are defaulted off requiring a command to turn those on individually. Turnouts are all defaulted to straight thru and need activation for turning. Since I think I have done as much under table work from above as I could, it is time to lay some track to get at least one mainline working to test electronics and see how I like the layout. I will just be putting it directly on the plywood and no elevations yet. just a test and get the feel for how things work. Any advice is MORE than welcome.

John, it does sound like you are ready to lay track.  Congratulations on getting so much accomplished from above without having to be uncomfortable under the layout.  A lesson for all of us.

Thanks Mark,  I wish it could have all been done from above! Laying track is not as easy as I hoped it would be... I now see there is a height difference with gargraves track and ross switches, the wood ties are different thicknesses. I am not letting that bother me at this stage, as this is just to get an idea of layout function, heights inclines etc. And getting an idea on how the double track bridge will "fit" at the entrance of the layout. I will be attempting to use the same lift mechanism you used from Mike's great instructions and help.  

John, I have places where I have shimmed under a few ties and then just let the rest of the track section float.  I don’t have a problem with the track sagging as an engine goes over. Eventually all that will be hidden under ballast.  If I live long enough to get that far.  😉

Hi Mark, Thanks for the sage advise. And I do feel I am starting to play "beat the clock" Now for laying some more track. At present, I am putting one mainline down right on top of plywood to get a sense of where to drop power wires and turn out wires. Also to visualize where buildings, industries, hills, scenery etc. should look. Just tacking down every 5 feet so I am not wasting too much time with this exercise.

John, I have been doing the same thing for adding a couple holding tracks that will be under the new raised town.

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, I have places where I have shimmed under a few ties and then just let the rest of the track section float.  I don’t have a problem with the track sagging as an engine goes over. Eventually all that will be hidden under ballast.  If I live long enough to get that far.  😉

Since I use Fastrack, I've never had to consider that issue.

Is that a situation where a flexible roadbed (rubber, vinyl, foam, etc.) would help to take up the smaller height gaps that might be present and eliminate sagging ?

I thank that would work, John.

Progress so far is: main line one is connected around layout, except at the double track atlas bridge. The bridge is not installed because it was not assembled or installed. I actually have an atlas single deck bridge with and expansion kit to make it into a dual track bridge. The good news is the deck when placed in position, clears the ceiling/joists/beams when it is fully raised. So now I just have to assemble the add on kit and finish the truss work. Anyone have helpful hints, please do not hesitate to chime in! Thanks in advance

Great progress, John!  I bought my bridges already built, so I don’t have anything to offer about construction.

Merry Christmas to ALL !!!

Hello All, I hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas! A quick progress update on my layout. I have one mainline up and running and one spur. Of course the mainline is not a continuous loop, due to the lift bridge not installed. However the power blocks work as designed, AIU sends signal to a micro which sends a wireless signal to a remote micro that controls a 10amp relay that switches power on or off. The same setup works for throwing turnouts! I haven't tested the block detection circuitry as of yet. I had a bigger urge to see a train or two run using DCS and learning that system. Now for the bridge, I have a linear actuator as described by Mike G. and have been looking at all the info Mike sent, Susan has posted and Mark's accomplishments. It seems prudent for me to disassemble the bridge back to the basic deck so I can have access to the metal supports inside the bridge itself. Then I can fashion hinges and supports for the linear actuator. This will also allow some painting and weathering of the bridge. I have seen some awesome weathering and painting that I have never tried to even attempt. Thankfully that is way down the road so to speak. The bridge I will be using is the Atlas Pratt Truss bridge with two three rail tracks. I was hoping to use a 3"x6" plate to secure the actuator to for raising the bridge. It looks like Mike and Mark have made plexiglass or plywood support decks. Is it because the double track bridge is that flimsy or not stable enough? Any comments are always welcome. Thanks in advance.

You have made good progress, John!  You can run trains a good bit with your nice length mainline until you get the bridge in.  I see what you mean about using the metal supports in the bridge to connect to the actuator.  I don’t know if that would be sturdy enough, or not.  I just took other’s suggestions to make a frame, but I’m sure the frame wouldn’t have to be as heavy duty as mine.

Thanks Mark for the feedback on the deck. I have some 1/2" lexan that could be used for a deck support/platform. I am still hoping the 6"x6"x1/8" plate fastened to two 3/4" x 1/8" angle brackets that are then attached to the steel plates hidden inside the girders will be steady and adequate for this bridge. Mark or Mike g. what is the distance from hinge point of the bridge to where the actuator attaches to the bridge? And how far away is the base of the actuator from that hinged pivot point? I do have 5" clearance height from ceiling with bridge vertical, so at least that is not an issue at this point. Sorry for the scribble drawing, I hope it is useful. it also needs turned CCW 90 degrees.

John, both my bridges have 7-1/2” from the hinge point of the bridge to the center hole on the actuator arm where it attaches to the mounting bracket that came with the actuator.  That is good you have 5” height to spare!!

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, both my bridges have 7-1/2” from the hinge point of the bridge to the center hole on the actuator arm where it attaches to the mounting bracket that came with the actuator.  That is good you have 5” height to spare!!

Thanks for the information Mark! Your info is as always invaluable! I am working on the bridge hinge components. Using the drawing's from Susan Deats post. I have 3D printed parts using PLA filament and I am hoping ( not a very technical term) that it will support the bridge in full vertical mode. If not then I will get out the steel and aluminum stock and fabricate as per drawings. I have included pics of the 3d printed hinges, and I have not had the courage to drill through the bridge and fasten then to it. Since the gap to span is less than 40 inches, it will sit on the layout with a tad of elevation which will accomodate the base hinge and allow clearance to go vertical.

Not sure how it will look as the plastic hinge is much thicker than the original steel design. Anyone have thoughts, especially, reason(s)  why this won't work?

I am hoping Mark,  Mike g., Susan and anyone else who has done a hinged lift bridge.

I hope it was ok to post Susan's Drawing... If not please let me know.

Thanks in Advance

John

John, the 3D printed parts look great!   The bridge itself isn’t that heavy, so I am ‘hoping’ they hold it up as well.  Since you have the skills to make parts like Susan did, you have that backup.  Susan’s plans and finished job looked great.  I only did something like that in high school metal shop.  Yours will look a lot less clunky than mine!

Thanks Mark for the vote of confidence. After getting your input I went ahead with the himge section of the bridge. It looks and feels like it will hold even more weight than the bridge. Most of the weight will either be on each end of the bridge when in down position, or the linear actuator and it's connections will bear the majority of weight. Here are a couple of pics of that endeavor.

That really looks great, John!!!  👍🏻👍🏻

Just a quick update... I made a couple of brick piers for the hinges to sit on and so the bridge could be mounted to the plywood base. I did this as a temp measure to set up the linear actuator and find out what supports I need for that and where they mount. Mark thanks for the 7.5" from hinge point, that appears to work. I'll start with that as a guide and make any needed adjustments from there. Here are a couple of pics with pier and bridge mounted. This aslo allowed ne to confirm postion for tracks and overhead ceiling clearance.

Laying more track and some buildings scattered about to get perspective and a general feel for how the layout will shape up. Here are some pics.

John, the bridge hinges and brick piers look great!  I’m glad you got some of the track in place as well.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate the encouragement.  Now for my next quandary, The track that I put down is definitely temporary, since they are not on a road bed and 30% of the track needs to be elevated so the other main line can pass under it. The quandry comes in with do I cut (cookie cutter style) 1/2" ply for elevated sections with road bed, without knowing that will be the final set up????? Or do I cut other lumber for temporary support? I would not think I need roadbed for the temporary setup?

Anyone have advice on this matter???? More or less, PLEASE Help!!!

Thanks in Advance

John

John, pick up the Westcott book on  layout building - a great reference. I am in a current build process using that technique. It is supposed to be one of the easier ways to modify layouts - especially for raising track.  Having used plywood previously, I can report grade changes and repairs require tearouts - hence the reason I am moving in this direction. I want this to be semi portable as well.  Jeff

@ScoutingDad posted:

John, pick up the Westcott book on  layout building - a great reference. I am in a current build process using that technique. It is supposed to be one of the easier ways to modify layouts - especially for raising track.  Having used plywood previously, I can report grade changes and repairs require tearouts - hence the reason I am moving in this direction. I want this to be semi portable as well.  Jeff

It funny Jeff you said to get a Linn Westcott, so I went to find the one I had and forgot I also have his book on how to wire your Model Railroad from1953!

@ScoutingDad posted:

John, pick up the Westcott book on  layout building - a great reference. I am in a current build process using that technique. It is supposed to be one of the easier ways to modify layouts - especially for raising track.  Having used plywood previously, I can report grade changes and repairs require tearouts - hence the reason I am moving in this direction. I want this to be semi portable as well.  Jeff

I have his book on benchwork, cannot find one on layout building.  I see one on Amazon that is 101 layouts?

@Aegis21  The book is "How to build Model Railroad Benchwork". If you can't find it on the ether give Hobby Recycling a call (616) 257-7155. He had a couple for around $5.00 each a couple of weeks ago.  I assume he will mail one to you.

@mike g.  LOL after I bought the Benchwork book, I decided to look at a book I picked up in the 70s on track layouts - sure enough another Westcott masterpiece - 101Track Plans.

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Aegis21  The book is "How to build Model Railroad Benchwork". If you can't find it on the ether give Hobby Recycling a call (616) 257-7155. He had a couple for around $5.00 each a couple of weeks ago.  I assume he will mail one to you.

@mike g.  LOL after I bought the Benchwork book, I decided to look at a book I picked up in the 70s on track layouts - sure enough another Westcott masterpiece - 101Track Plans.

LOL Jeff, I had to come in from the train room just to check and sure enough I also have the Westcott 101Track Plans! LOL

@Aegis21 posted:

Thanks Mark, I appreciate the encouragement.  Now for my next quandary, The track that I put down is definitely temporary, since they are not on a road bed and 30% of the track needs to be elevated so the other main line can pass under it. The quandry comes in with do I cut (cookie cutter style) 1/2" ply for elevated sections with road bed, without knowing that will be the final set up????? Or do I cut other lumber for temporary support? I would not think I need roadbed for the temporary setup?

Anyone have advice on this matter???? More or less, PLEASE Help!!!

Thanks in Advance

John

Assuming that your purpose in building a temporary set-up for the elevated track is simply to see how it fits into your overall layout and what modifications might be needed for the final set-up (as opposed to conducting actual train operations on the temporary elevated section), I would probably go with "cutting other lumber" - probably just graduated vertical sections of 2 X 4 lumber from 1/2" to 6" tall, placed at each track joint.

That way you can see how the elevated section looks w/o having to spend a great deal of money or time in cutting plywood sections to size.

Just my $0.02. 

I started my layout in 1983 and it has been growing and evolving since - my original 4 x 8 is still part of it!!!

Go here for the full story: About | WarrenVille RailRoad

John, my take is that trestle sets, both elevated and graduated, don’t require roadbed, so I don’t see why you can’t just support the joints for testing just like those would.

John, I'm currently in the process of putting in my grades and over / under track. I have both Wescott books & 1 by Jeff Wilson - 'Basic model railroad benchwork'. Construction is L-girder w cookie cutter subroadbed (1/2" ply) (6-ply)). Roadbed will be 1/2" homasote.   I agree, use cheap plywood for the elevated sections till u firm up the design.  If you're not operating on it, supports every 24" should suffice.  Here's a couple pics of my grades using risers and cleats.  Note: when u get to making your risers w cleats attached, the cleat should extend above the riser by an 1/8".  You'll have to account for that when setting your heights.  Only the cleat supports the plywood subroadbed. That's why it says to secure the roadbed by drilling thru the cleat up into the plywood. If the cleat and plywood r at the same height, and you secure into both, you're roadbed will be wavy - ie flat spot, rise, flat spot, etc.  You get it.   There is a reference to this 1/8" gap in one of the books but it is very obscure.   

John, and don't forget the splice plates.  rule of thumb is the length of the splice plate is 2x the width of the roadbed. I both glue screw  my splice plates.

Tom

whoops forgot to attach the pics

Tom, beautiful work on the benchwork. I had purchased Wescott’s book but I had already started out with open grid benchwork. I did use the risers and cleats for the grades to do an over and under. My curve on a grade looked fine to my eye till I ran a train. Had a flat spot or dip that was noticeable. Easy to correct just by re drilling the riser and bringing it up a bit.

I want to say I built my benchwork following Frank Ellison’s book. I must have read it 20 times. One thing I remember was the mentioning of a star drill and driving screws by hand. Probably slotted ones back then.  Luckily when I started the battery powered drills were just getting popular along with self driving screws.

@Mark Boyce posted:

John, the bridge hinges and brick piers look great!  I’m glad you got some of the track in place as well.

Thanks Mark, you Mike g. and Susan were my guiding lights and I could not have done it without you all being the pioneers!

@ScoutingDad posted:

@Aegis21  The book is "How to build Model Railroad Benchwork". If you can't find it on the ether give Hobby Recycling a call (616) 257-7155. He had a couple for around $5.00 each a couple of weeks ago.  I assume he will mail one to you.

@mike g.  LOL after I bought the Benchwork book, I decided to look at a book I picked up in the 70s on track layouts - sure enough another Westcott masterpiece - 101Track Plans.

Thanks Jeff, I used that to construct the L-girder benchwork and then got sidetracked with the layout and bridge. I will hunt in my basement for it... LOL Thanks for getting me off the spur I wandered onto and back on track.

@Richie C. posted:

Assuming that your purpose in building a temporary set-up for the elevated track is simply to see how it fits into your overall layout and what modifications might be needed for the final set-up (as opposed to conducting actual train operations on the temporary elevated section), I would probably go with "cutting other lumber" - probably just graduated vertical sections of 2 X 4 lumber from 1/2" to 6" tall, placed at each track joint.

That way you can see how the elevated section looks w/o having to spend a great deal of money or time in cutting plywood sections to size.

Just my $0.02.

Thanks, for some reason I had it in my head that a plywood base needed to be under the elevated sections instead of just putting risers directly under the track joints like the old lionel trestles worked. Again Thanks!

@Lionelski posted:

I started my layout in 1983 and it has been growing and evolving since - my original 4 x 8 is still part of it!!!

Go here for the full story: About | WarrenVille RailRoad

Thansk for the link, I will definitely check it out!

@DoubleDAZ posted:

John, my take is that trestle sets, both elevated and graduated, don’t require roadbed, so I don’t see why you can’t just support the joints for testing just like those would.

Yes Dave! You and Richie have the same sage advice that I will take for sure!

THANKS Dave and Richie!

@TomSuperO posted:

John, I'm currently in the process of putting in my grades and over / under track. I have both Wescott books & 1 by Jeff Wilson - 'Basic model railroad benchwork'. Construction is L-girder w cookie cutter subroadbed (1/2" ply) (6-ply)). Roadbed will be 1/2" homasote.   I agree, use cheap plywood for the elevated sections till u firm up the design.  If you're not operating on it, supports every 24" should suffice.  Here's a couple pics of my grades using risers and cleats.  Note: when u get to making your risers w cleats attached, the cleat should extend above the riser by an 1/8".  You'll have to account for that when setting your heights.  Only the cleat supports the plywood subroadbed. That's why it says to secure the roadbed by drilling thru the cleat up into the plywood. If the cleat and plywood r at the same height, and you secure into both, you're roadbed will be wavy - ie flat spot, rise, flat spot, etc.  You get it.   There is a reference to this 1/8" gap in one of the books but it is very obscure.   

Thanks for the invaluable tip on the 1/8" added cleat height for keeping things from being wavy! Great pics and progress on your layout. Where did you get the homosote roadbed? Did you make it or purchase it? Again Thanks !

@TomSuperO posted:

John, and don't forget the splice plates.  rule of thumb is the length of the splice plate is 2x the width of the roadbed. I both glue screw  my splice plates.

Tom

Hi Tom,

I have to admit my ignorance, what are splice plates? Do they attach elevated plywood pieces together?  At least I cannot forget what I don't know.