Next from PSC?

NOTICE

Precision (PSC) is still in the parts/castings and importing business (for now).

American Scale Models/Bill Davis has purchased only the repair parts supplied to PSC by the Korean builders for each model project (in HO and O),plus the associated decals for same. ...similar to the purchase of same from Overland years ago.

PSC has announced the C&O H7 is their last O scale project. Overland is out of the brass business. It is likely that very few models,if any will be seen in the future from the other top builders too. 

Significant price increases (Koreans want flat screens and SUVs too) plus waning demand (attrition) and competition from plastic can be cited as reasons for the abovementioned;although plastic is becoming expensive too. Perhaps we are witness to the end of the brass era?

While the hobby is by no means "dead"; and actually rather vibrant of late,the downward curve of new imports intersects neatly with the slowly declining amount of new entrants in to O scale modeling,IMHO.

 Keep Em Rolling Till The Wheels Fall Off!

Sincerely,Bill Davis

Bad news re: PSC exiting O Scale.    But.......Bill, you are still bringing in brass. (I have purchased a water column and an Erie express boxcar of late).  How does your activity reconcile with your observations ?

bob2 posted:

I would vote for a die cast SP S-9 switcher in 17/64.  Bet the market for that is just slightly smaller than the Wabash Mogul.

Bob,

Just a thought based on NO particular knowledge, but i would guess the chances of getting one in 1/48 are only minimally better (translated as: Don't hold your breath!)

Simon

Mark,

Thanks for your inquiry. Based on my own limited experience,the prices quoted for new projects prohibits me from continuing except for accessory items (oil/water columns,trucks,bridges,etc.).

There are also issues of quality control of late from some of the larger engine builders/importers. The latest bigboy model in HO is an example of same.

Regards,

Bill

Thanks for the response, Bill.    Was just on Ebay, and noted that the prices for brass o scale items are absolutely plummeting. Does this have an indirect affect on new brass imports? In other words, is the floor collapsing for pricing ?

I did not know there was a problem with the lagest ''Big Boy'' in HO scale. when I changed to O scale (2003) the last one was by Precision Craft Models if memory serves me correct. Was there one done since the?

ASM148 posted:

NOTICE

Precision (PSC) is still in the parts/castings and importing business (for now).

American Scale Models/Bill Davis has purchased only the repair parts supplied to PSC by the Korean builders for each model project (in HO and O),plus the associated decals for same. ...similar to the purchase of same from Overland years ago.

PSC has announced the C&O H7 is their last O scale project. Overland is out of the brass business. It is likely that very few models,if any will be seen in the future from the other top builders too. 

Significant price increases (Koreans want flat screens and SUVs too) plus waning demand (attrition) and competition from plastic can be cited as reasons for the abovementioned;although plastic is becoming expensive too. Perhaps we are witness to the end of the brass era?

While the hobby is by no means "dead"; and actually rather vibrant of late,the downward curve of new imports intersects neatly with the slowly declining amount of new entrants in to O scale modeling,IMHO.

 Keep Em Rolling Till The Wheels Fall Off!

Sincerely,Bill Davis

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you Mr Davis 

Erik 

Simon - my post with that switcher was a crummy attempt at a joke.  I was making an unsupported point about the market for the Wabash Mogul.

The Wabash is such a small teakettle that, even in 17/64, it would look small next to a K-28 Mikado.

I would say that the days of diecast anything in O Scale are over.  Even Lionel is going to built-up brass for their high end products.

Low prices for certain items on ebay reflect several factors.

One, the sale of an ebay auction item depends on more than one person bidding to increase the price; and if the right people arent tuned in at that particular time,the result can be a lower price. Others are just selling models to get rid of them and havent a financial need to get top dollar....

Two,condition of items often dictate the final value (used vs like new)..as well as the particular sellers reputation or lack thereof.

Three, it seems we are currently witnessing the great divide in pricing based on older/plain and used models (soft prices) vs. later run higher detail/quality models (steady or increasing prices). However, the softness in price of some of the earlier models (Max Gray and US Hobbies especially) is creating an excellent opportunity for anyone entering the hobby or who wants some of the best rugged quality and well engineered models available.

It seems the money (and price increases) are gravitating towards the high-end and rare models and older models in mint condition which were in short supply when made (i.e new models: Kohs,Car & Loco Shop,some Key-- and old models: Max Gray SP5000,L-131,T&P 2-10-4 etc.).

An exception is an interesting phenom which when Sunset or the like offers a copy of an existing top model (or a model is done in plastic of same),people tend to panic and dump the top models which causes a price drop. This is usually when the knowledgeable collectors buy. Often the prices for the top models go back up in time....this is currently playing out with some Key diesels which in a few cases are selling for 1/2 price.... read: opportunity....other Key diesels (not done in plastic etc.) are selling at premiums still.

In good condition, no matter which model, the price of new brass and quotes for same makes even $300 freight cars look cheap....try and get a brass hopper with Yoder type quality made in Korea today for less than $300 cost.....I just received quotes for a pickle car between $5-700....

In short,while some prices may seem high, they are relative bargains for what you are getting vs the cost to produce same in todays dollars. When the importers finally give up due to quality and price issues, the existing supply of models in good condition may increase significantly in price...

There are actually several guys,not necessarily model railroaders, who are collecting brass models (and other collectibles),not as an investment per se but as a store of value or tangible asset/inflationary hedge etc.....paper vs brass

Regards,

Bill

bob2 posted:

Simon - my post with that switcher was a crummy attempt at a joke.  I was making an unsupported point about the market for the Wabash Mogul.

The Wabash is such a small teakettle that, even in 17/64, it would look small next to a K-28 Mikado.

I would say that the days of diecast anything in O Scale are over.  Even Lionel is going to built-up brass for their high end products.

Thought maybe you had snorted a few too many solder fumes!

I don't follow Lionel, but if so, I find that amusing!

Simon

ASM148 posted:

In good condition, no matter which model, the price of new brass and quotes for same makes even $300 freight cars look cheap....try and get a brass hopper with Yoder type quality made in Korea today for less than $300 cost.....I just received quotes for a pickle car between $5-700....

In short,while some prices may seem high, they are relative bargains for what you are getting vs the cost to produce same in todays dollars. When the importers finally give up due to quality and price issues, the existing supply of models in good condition may increase significantly in price...

There are actually several guys,not necessarily model railroaders, who are collecting brass models (and other collectibles),not as an investment per se but as a store of value or tangible asset/inflationary hedge etc.....paper vs brass

Regards,

Bill

I think I know a few of those brass hoarders!!!

Not sure I 'd want to be the one figuring out the brass market.  It surely seems that bigger sells and that is why the recurring theme of big boys, cab forwards, H8's and the like.   Not much interest in Moguls, ten wheelers or saddle tankers.

I'd love to know what a current state of the art brass Southern SU truss rod box car or UTLX X3 tank car would retail for and to what quantities they would need to be built.  

Thank you for taking the time to share your insight with us, Bill.

mark s posted:

I suggested to Mark about 10 or so years ago, during the  period when he/PSC was doing the On3 die cast locomotive line, that he do the Wabash Mogul in die cast.  After all, PSC had all the castings from the old Kemtron line, which produced the original Wabash Mogul kit in 1959. Mark felt there was not enough commercial draw for that project to succeed - my bet was the opposite. Of course, my money wasn't on the line. But die cast was a way for PSC to bring in some low-cost, pretty well detailed O Scale locomotives. Maybe that might be a direction that they could go, again.

I don't know Mr. Mogansen personally, but from what I have read, projects are not started without sufficient reservations, thus the (sometimes) long span of time producing them. I certainly CAN'T fault  the man for that, as he is not in business to lose money. I thought the MMI (Mountain Model Imports) idea of cast bodies with added details was a good one, but I don't recall seeing much of it come to fruition.  I specifically recall a NYC smaller steamer that I might have had interest in, but I'm pretty sure it was canceled fairly early on. I am guessing if he had an "O" scale project with enough firm reservations it would get built.

bob2 posted:

I would say that the days of diecast anything in O Scale are over.  Even Lionel is going to built-up brass for their high end products.

I went on Lionel's website looking for a part to be used on a brass model. I didn't see anything that I'd call "Built up" brass. I did see die cast with added brass details!

Simon

Think Mark and Precision Scale did pretty much the entire DRGW narrow gauge roster in MMI/die cast. I purchased a K37 and a K27. They cost someting like $550, which at the time was a wild steal. That's what prompted me to suggest the Wabash Mogul, as I thought it would meet a continuing need for small locomotives in O Scale - - - and at a very  digestabile price !   Alas, guess that's gone forever, or at least the appreciable future.

Lionel has one brass loco in the works that was a buy direct deal no dealers involved. This is like Broadway Ltd Imports brass hybrids with a brass body on a diecast drive. Touted as the best of both worlds. They havent been delivered yet so we dont know how good they are.

PSC must have been doing something right in the past.   At least one person was willing to give $5075 for a PSC C&O H7a!

https://www.brasstrains.com/Cl...2VB-tender-Road-1572

It was only 1 of a total production of 4 of that particular model. Might explain the high price. 

I think Dan Glasure and Brasstrains has done more to revitalize the brass train business (mostly HO) that anyone in the past 20 years. They extract top $$$ out of anything they sell and the more rare the higher the price.  I'm sure most is due to their worldwide exposure and professional manner. I had my doubts when they started up this venture, but you can't argue with success. 

BH

That didn't last a song!

The 4-12-2 l that sold for $4000 the other day went quick too!!!

Too bad each and every model isn't as well detailed as the H7a and UP Three Cylinder.  They was simply gorgeous but then again for $4-5k they should be!

Long live the Brass Locomotive and cars too. 

Mr Davis, your awesome man!! You’ve made some dreams come true for me. 

Rule292 posted:

PSC must have been doing something right in the past.

How about a pile of  VERY nice well detailed freight cars!

Simon

Simon Winter posted:

Rule292 posted:

PSC must have been doing something right in the past.

How about a pile of  VERY nice well detailed freight cars!

Simon

I wouldn't know. I hate brass train cars.