No Function on Legacy

Based on what you have said, it sounds like a base signal to track issue.  And if lightning was close enough to take out a modem and other stuff, it could have taken out something on the base.

 

I don't think a remote reset will help but before you can get an RA from Lionel, they like to rule out the simple stuff.

Thanks Marty.

 

I was a little confused about the lightning stuff, because what I didn't add was: we have a lightning arrestor (peak ridge spikes to a huge ground wire) on the house. We didn't lose any electrical appliances (microwave, router, TV's, satellite receivers) from whatever this was, but it was strong enough to apparently trip the breakers for power in the garage (but not the house). It seemed (from what the telephone guys said) that the lightning traveled to us via the phone wires, which made sense to me because of the lightning "rods" on the roof of the house. (My wife has actually witnessed lightning hitting the house from 10 feet outside of the house.)

 

I realize that the track can (and does) act as an antenna (of sorts) and therefore could "zap" the Legacy via lightning, but I'm hoping against it. It will definitely be a bummer to travel 2 separate times and just work on scenery rather than run some trains. At least I'll be there on a Monday and can talk to Lionel service while actually having something to check (they claim they have a few other trick to try and resurrect the system).

 

Thanks again,

 

Bruce

Good Luck, but I think the output stage of the track signal is fried.  Too bad Lionel doesn't include any form of protection on that output!

I just "invented" a very simple test to see if signal is coming out the Track terminal if you have a common digital voltmeter.

1.  Disconnect the Base from the track and the Serial output 9-pin.

2.  Set your digital voltmeter to the 2V (2000 mV) scale.  Turn on the meter!

3.  Connect a resistor of almost any value (I tested 100 ohms to 47,000 ohms) from pin 5 on the 9-pin plug (lower right corner) to the Track thumbscrew.

4.  Connect a diode - 1N400x or 1N914/4148 - from the Track thumbscrew to one lead of your digital voltmeter.

5.  Connect the other lead of your digital voltmeter to pin 5/resistor.

6.  Apply AC power to the Base.

7.  Read 1.5-2.0VDC on the meter.  The polarity of the reading will depend upon which way you install the diode, but both orientations of the diode will work.

 

The resistor is absolutely necessary because of the output capacitor in series with the thumbscrew inside the Base!!  The diode halfwave rectifies the 455 KHz track signal so that your low-cost digital meter will read a DC voltage.  This way the meter doesn't need to have any high-performance AC specs to detect the track signal.

 

For my testing I saw about 2.0VDC with the 1N914/1N4148 fast small-signal diode, and about 1.5VDC with a 1N4004 slower power diode.

If someone would be kind enough to create a schematic for this test - resistor from Thumbscrew to pin 5, diode connected to thumbscrew, meter across diode output to Pin 5 and publish it here as a .jpg, I will add it to my posting on my www.trainfacts.com writeup of this test.

Thanks, Dale. I'll give this a try this week and report back. 

 

Bruce

I had lightning hit and take out the HDMI ports on an HDMI booster, splitter, and an XBOX, but the two TV's connected survived.  This is with whole-house surge protection on the breaker panels.  Lightning is strange stuff, I couldn't figure how it could cook the stuff it did and yet leave other stuff on the same signal track intact.

 

I'm betting it killed the Legacy output stage, remember that is referenced to earth ground, and lightning hit close to the house.

Thanks, John!

To continue a "lightning" discussion: How does the output phase get fried when the entire layout, Legacy included, is not plugged in to a wall outlet? My layout has three PowerHouse bricks, a CW80, and two accessory transformers plugged unto powers trips and from there into a wall outlet. Two of the "bricks" are wire to separate power districts with toggle on/off switches. The Legacy base was wired to the
layout with the one wire, and the "wart" was plugged in to a power strip that was unplugged from the wall. Entire layout is on a second floor. Lightning rod (ridge pikes 6" long along the top of the roof ridge) is on the house (not attached to the garage, where the layout is). No electrical damage in house, damage to devices attached via telephone wire (line splitter under house, cordless telephone base unit, DSL modem).

Just bad luck, or should I be doing something else to protect the Legacy (like detaching it from the layout and storing it in the house)?

Thanks,
Bruce

Do you have anything attached to the 9-pin serial port?

Hi Dale.

 

No. The only things attached are the power cable and the output to the track (screw terminal).

 

Bruce

The lightning capitol of the world, you guys get more than your share down there.

 

I think if you unplug the Legacy base, the other thing you could do is disconnect it from the layout, it's only one wire.  That should be pretty close to total protection, it's not likely to get zapped connected to nothing.

 

Note that many semiconductors are actually more vulnerable to EMI when they're not powered as opposed to when they are.  It has to do with them being correctly biased in normal operation.

 

In Florida, I'd be tempted to disconnect the wire to the track.

Hi John.

 

Well I live in Florida, but my trains are in the Raleigh, NC area. With bad storms there in the past couple of weeks, our NC home has more lightning exposure than the Florida one, or so it seems.

 

Anyway, I'll be curious to try Dale's suggestion for testing and then ultimately find out from Lionel what to do. I'm considering a trek to a local Hobby Shop about 40 min away, but what holds me back from there is that their repair tech is part time and only comes in intermittently. Didn't really want to drive out to find no one there to help, but my impatience may get the better of me. Hopefully their tech will be there on Saturday; hard for me to get off work during the week.

 

Thanks for the suggestions. Maybe I should take the Legacy in the house (where the lightning rods "protect" it!?).

 

Regards,

Bruce

If you find anyone local that has either TMCC or Legacy, you can just hook it up to their layout and see if it works.

 

It's pretty easy, one wire off their command base and onto your Legacy base.  That would tell you right off if it's working.

Hi guys, an update:

 

Went to a local (FL) hobby shop about 45 min away. The owner, also the service tech, was extremely nice and tried reloading software, tried my CAB2 on his base, etc. Bottom line: Legacy base unit is not functioning, with no signal to the track. SO I'll call and get an RA tomorrow and send it off to Lionel.

 

Thanks for all of the helpful suggestions. I didn't get the chance to try Dale's check on the output; I just decided that Lionel would still want a service tech to take a look, so I made the trek to the shop to find out what we (you) all suspected.

 

Did get a Rock Island gravel hopper out of it, though... Can't leave completely empty-handed!

 

Thanks again,

 

Bruce

If it doesn't work elsewhere, no reason to spend any more time on it.  Put it in a box and ship it off to Lionel.

Hi John:

 

It's on its way to Mike Reagan and the crew now. I hope they will tell me what happened.

 

Getting to visit my trains again this weekend; I have to take a transformer with me to run some "conventional" trains before I go into full withdrawal. I know the service is fast, but no hope to get the Legacy back this weekend.  At least the scenery will get done...

 

Thanks for the helpful suggestions from all.

 

Bruce

Update on the Legacy:

 

I just received the repaired Legacy system back from Lionel. The repair parts list was:

 

RESISTOR/SMT/20 OHM/ 1/8 WATT

DIODE/ZENER/SMT/5.1 VOLT 500 MW

FUSE/ BOURNS/SMT/1.50 AMP 63 VOLT

PCB/ COMMUNICATIONS/LEGACY BASE

PCB/CHARGING CIRCUIT/LEGACY BASE

 

Haven't t tried it yet, but assume it works. I'm in FL, so I brought some "test equipment" home to give it a go, maybe this weekend (wife has me hanging new paintings on walls).

 

The folks at Lionel even sent me another set of rechargeable batteries, as well as returning my lithium batteries that I was using for the CAB-2. Very thoughtful, fast, and assuming perfect repair.

 

Any ideas about what happened, based on the parts list? I talked briefly with Don Jones (DGJONES on Forum), and he told me his friend's Legacy "died" (similar to mine) at about 2 years; mine is 3 years old and rarely seen as much use as many others. Interesting.

 

Thanks,

Bruce

 

 

Well, they replaced the communications board, I can only assume that was the primary issue.  The charging circuit I think it being upgraded to the new one as they get them back.  Not sure what the assorted discrete components were for...

Any ideas about cause of disability, John?

Well, the fact that the track signal board was cooked suggests a power surge.  Living in Florida, the lightning capitol of the world, that doesn't seem surprising.   I'm guessing the regulator board is just replaced as a PM measure since the old ones had major problems.

 

Note that power surge is just an educated guess, not a certainty.

My Legacy system was doing the same thing all Legacy engines started in conventional.Sent Legacy to Lionel and they repaired same. They replaced two items

1. PCB communications

2. PCB charging ckt

 

I do not use the charging ckt on the base I charge batteries myself w/ a charger

I hope not using the charging feature is not causing a problem.So far its working fine.

 

Not using the charger is not a problem, there is even a switch to turn it off on the bottom of the command base.  Doubtless the comm board was the actual failure.

john refresh my memory.  if there is a lighting storm is it OK to leave the legacy plugged in and turned off or should it be unplugged? and what if the hand held is not in the base?

Truthfully, I'd arrange for the track lead to be disconnected as well as unplugging the power to the base.  If there is any serial cable connected, that should be removed as well.

 

I've never seen any power surge affect a device that is sitting totally unconnected.

I wanted to post in part to know if others had these issues with Legacy suddenly non-functioning, and also to get opinions on lightning and "proper" ways to leave my Legacy controls when I leave NC to return to FL. Thanks for the advice, John, because it will be easy to disconnect the Legacy base from both power supply and track on the permanent layout.

 

I don't know whether it was lightning or just "bad circuit karma" that fouled my Legacy, but I am grateful that Lionel Service repaired it quickly and at no cost (except shipping one way). I am very impressed, Mike Reagan!

 

Bruce

If you're a veteran, you can have free shipping both ways.