My comments echo MartyE. The thought has never have even crossed my mind that Lionel would use DCS. They have their own Command System. Why on earth would they license a system from someone else?
Beta was arguably a better format but the world settled on VHS. Now they're both gone. Scary
I also embrace all three systems: Legacy, DCS, and DCC.
Unfortunately I don't own any of them, but maybe I will someday.
I have and run both systems.....enjoy them both.......and, I predict, something with Blue Tooth capability (or something yet undiscovered or thought of) will come out someday that runs both and it be the end of the of the competition.......
Peter
Put me in the Legacy camp. All my engines are either Legacy or TMCC, As for my home layout…….I don’t have one. I run my trains at my train club. My first club the Black Diamond Society of Model Engineers had both DCS and Legacy. My second club the Delaware Seaside Railroad Club in Shelbyville Delaware has both DCS and Legacy so I have used both systems, in fact I have the DCS apt on my cell phone….in fact Mike Wolf put it on my phone at York the year they introduced it. To be honest at the Delaware club we did need GRJ’s Legacy signal booster which greatly improved the Legacy signal especially in the tunnel. One thing Legacy never told me is “you train is not on the tracks” other than that both systems have worked fine together. I see no need for DCS or DCC in a Lionel engine.
JohnB
@JohnB posted:One thing Legacy never told me is “you train is not on the tracks” other than that both systems have worked fine together. I see no need for DCS or DCC in a Lionel engine.
That's because TMCC/Legacy doesn't know if your engine is on the tracks or not.
I could easily say, "One thing DCS never did was send one engine flying while the other is dragging it's wheels in a lash-up."
Again, each system has pros and cons. Nitpicking over the details to make yourself feel better about which one you've chosen to become a fanboy of is a sad way to enjoy the hobby.
I'd just point out that brand allegiance has less to do with Operating System allegiance than timing. If you were quick to embrace the new technology, you had TMCC. I installed mine in early 1997. And once I had it, I wasn't about to buy, install, and run a second system that basically did the same things. And at that time I had never heard of DCC except that there were these guys at shows with glasses and pocket protectors who walked around layouts plugging in to jacks all over the place.
And the separate operating systems might have exacerbated the brand wars... as folks (like me) look at Operating Systems like the way we look at track: something that's necessary, but not worth spending a lot of money on... which is why I still have some 1940's era switches.
I'm guessing that internal Lionel customer research shows that folks would buy A command system ONCE... like a transformer. That's why they went to the LionChief(Plus)(2.0) model.
Jon 
@rdj92807 posted:I use both DCS and Legacy. IMO DCS is way better, and I run my Lionel trains with it most of the time. To hear the Lionel folks make such arrogant comments, ****es me off. Lionel has more than 3 ways to run their trains now, which are incompatible and down right stupid. They should not be throwing stones in a glass house. Maybe Lionel should try to figure out a way to make $2000 engines work when you open the box for the first time. That would be more productive.
rd,
Q1: Define incompatible. Specifically what are the more-than-three incompatible methods? How are they incompatible?
Q2: In what way(s) is DCS "way better" than Lionel's offerings?
(I'm asking so that we, and in particular newbies, might learn from your experience.)
Mike
It would be nice to have a single system across all O gauge, but that is not how we do it in America, haha.
I personally have stuck with Legacy, only because I loved the whole integration with their LCS system and Command switches, etc. and it is a nice eco system. Just my preference. I did give MTH's DCS a try but did no like it as much. But one of the main reasons I stuck with one system was to keep my spending down! HAHA. By sticking with one control system it cut my spending on engines down. What is everyone worried about though? There is a lot of DCS control system inventory, that will probably always be available somewhere, like eBay. Most engines have been done to death, so you can probably find any engine you are after on the secondary market in DCS. For me it is kind of cool, because I may see some MTH tooling I always wanted now in Legacy. So we will see. Either way both systems will be around a long time I think.
Plus I am not sure how they would squeeze both control systems inside the same engines? Not sure it is physically even possible. And it would certainly not be cost feasible to make the same engine in 2 different flavors for such a small, small market.
@Sean's Train Depot posted:But one of the main reasons I stuck with one system was to keep my spending down! HAHA. By sticking with one control system it cut my spending on engines down.
TRUTH.
Jon
I think inertia plays a significant role in which system people use, as mentioned above 
.
I made a choice 20 years ago that Lionel was getting to pricy for me at that time and I thought MTH had a nicer product detail wise less to looking and chose the MTH option as I mostly bought Rail King product line. I have progress to the Premier line and have looked at the high end Lionel stuff just not sure I want to make the transition at this point I have nothing negative to say about Lionel's system as I do not use it or own any locomotives that use it. I have a pretty good collection of Post War and will always be a Lionel Post War guy as that is what I grew up with. I chose MTH and DCS for price reasons at the time as I thought Lionel was to expensive for me at that time. Never gave any thought to using both.
This isn't any different than smack talk between sports teams; no big deal.
@Oman posted:This isn't any different than smack talk between sports teams; no big deal.
I think it’s more akin to unsportsmanlike conduct. I don’t recall Nick Foles (go birds) talking about how old and irrelevant Tom Brady was after winning Super Bowl LII.
Then Brady took his teams to victory in LIII and LV. Maybe, DCS will surprise us🤷🏻♂️
This was a live stream. This is why I never take a live call on my show. Everything goes into VoxPro so I can edit it before it hits the air. I edit myself in calls as much as the listener.
Jon
@TheRambles posted:I think I it’s more akin to unsportsmanlike conduct. I don’t recall Nick Foles (go birds) talking about how old and irrelevant Tom Brady was after winning Super Bowl LII.
Then Brady took his teams to victory in LIII and LV. Maybe, DCS will surprise us🤷🏻♂️
I think he spoke the truth as he sees it. And if he said at Lionel, then I suspect that many others at Lionel have come to the same conclusion. Does it come across as arrogant? Perhaps, but in a way it is refreshingly honest. We have many people here that are deeply invested in MTH: hobbyists with $$$ and emotional capital in locomotives and DCS , we have people who have done work on behalf of MTH, and we have dealers who earn a living selling MTH product. There is nothing wrong with any of that and to each his own. But all of that has limited the ability to really look with clarity at how our hobby, and MTH, are changing.
The other thing to keep in mind is that as MTH continues to slowly downsize, these kinds of discussions are probably not going away. We have crossed the Rubicon and the hobby is very different now then it was a couple of years ago. I personally think we are going to be fine and that the O gauge market will grow again. ( I bet York numbers will go up this year!)
But some changes are going to be difficult for some.
Peace
@Madockawando posted:I think he spoke the truth as he sees it. And if he said at Lionel, then I suspect that many others at Lionel have come to the same conclusion. Does it come across as arrogant? Perhaps, but in a way it is refreshingly honest. We have many people here that are deeply invested in MTH: hobbyists with $$$ and emotional capital in locomotives and DCS , we have people who have done work on behalf of MTH, and we have dealers who earn a living selling MTH product. There is nothing wrong with any of that and to each his own. But all of that has limited the ability to really look with clarity at how our hobby, and MTH, are changing.
It seems we have people deeply invested in Lionel as well, and sometimes they tend to get a little overbearing in their commentary on the topic. 
My collection consists mostly of MTH locomotives as MTH has produced far more product in Boston and Maine/Maine Central liveries than Big L ever did. So my primary operating system is, and will continue to be, DCS. Coupled with TMCC, I can also run my Lionel and Atlas locos with my DCS handhelds. It's worked well for me for decades now and I see no reason to change it.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:It seems we have people deeply invested in Lionel as well, and sometimes they tend to get a little overbearing in their commentary on the topic.
Hmm… maybe. But I notice that you are not disagreeing with me! 😉
Having suffered through many hassles with DCC on our club's HO/On30 layout, I see no reason to declare that system to be the Gold Standard. I have TMCC but wish I didn't, and I have no desire for DCS. As they used to say, "A pox on all their houses!" Give me a transformer any day.
In the second post in this thread, I said, "...3-rail operators...use several different, unwieldy, and incompatible digital control systems. It’s a system of forced brand loyalty, and it is very short-sighted..."
Many of the posts further down in this thread have reinforced that point. Look how many posters have said, they are "...heavily invested..." in DCS or Legacy. We should be heavily invested in the hobby as a whole, not individual loyalties to one brand or another.
RixTrack stated that he figured DCS had five years left before fading away. I think he may be on to something there. Now that much of the MTH tooling has been purchased by other companies, the amount of new product coming to market with DCS installed is going to dwindle rapidly. With a shrinking user base, and fewer products licensed with DCS, there will be little if any profit to be made by whoever is supporting DCS. No profit = no company. Follow the money.
@Rich Melvin posted:"...3-rail operators...use several different, unwieldy, and incompatible digital control systems. It’s a system of forced brand loyalty, and it is very short-sighted..."
I guess that's what I was trying to say... the brand loyalty was almost an after-effect of the OPS.
Jon
@Rich Melvin posted:In the second post in this thread, I said, "...3-rail operators...use several different, unwieldy, and incompatible digital control systems. It’s a system of forced brand loyalty, and it is very short-sighted..."
Many of the posts further down in this thread have reinforced that point. Look how many posters have said, they are "...heavily invested..." in DCS or Legacy. We should be heavily invested in the hobby as a whole, not individual loyalties to one brand or another.
RixTrack stated that he figured DCS had five years left before fading away. I think he may be on to something there. Now that much of the MTH tooling has been purchased by other companies, the amount of new product coming to market with DCS installed is going to dwindle rapidly. With a shrinking user base, and fewer products licensed with DCS, there will be little if any profit to be made by whoever is supporting DCS. No profit = no company. Follow the money.
I thought they said MTH retained 80% of their tooling. Seems likely until they either sell it or scrap the remaining tooling, they could use it and make trains for the foreseeable future with DCS. I would think the bigger driving point for DCS to "go away" is the cost of continued development in the way of keeping current designs valid with changing parts and outdated components. Again this depends on the willingness and money for someone to actually want to be an O Gauge manufacturer / importer.
Never say Never. If some day it makes good business sense Lionel will do it.
@GVDobler posted:Beta was arguably a better format but the world settled on VHS. Now they're both gone. Scary
True. My layout is wired but I'm even giving batteries with DCC control some serious consideration. It seems like a possible new frontier.
Attrition. Lionel's TMCC/LCS system wins by attrition; where they don't even need to apply any pressure because there is no competition.
DCS will be forgotten and relegated to the ash pits of tech history righty next to the ENIAC 1.
@Madockawando posted:Hmm… maybe. But I notice that you are not disagreeing with me! 😉
Au contraire, I'm not agreeing with you. 
You spend an awful lot of time in threads trashing MTH in general and DCS in particular. I don't agree with your stand on that, so please don't tar me with the same brush. I realize you're a huge Lionel fanboy, but they're not the only train manufacturer, and all of the hobby suffers when a major player exits the scene. Truth be told, I have a lot of MTH locomotives and rolling stock, even a few accessories. Many of them are superior to similar offerings from Lionel. I also have a ton of Lionel stuff, and I'll likely have more in the future, and they make some great products as well.
That being said, it's not a cause for celebration when another maker is downsized or exits the market. 
So we've established that Lionel will not be supporting DCS. I never expected them to, so it's not news to me. What I'm wondering is are they going to be supporting the current CAB-2 Legacy remote any longer? I've been mulling over getting one since I now have a few Legacy locomotives in my roundhouse I can actually use the features of the system. I have the original TMCC remote and base and it worked well enough for my older Lionel and Atlas TMCC locos.
However, I can't find the 990 Legacy Remote and Base set in stock anywhere, and it seems as though inventory on that item has been thinning for quite sometime. Is Lionel going to do a run of these soon? Or maybe release a new remote? Or is their plan to go to the iCab app and LCS WiFi module similar to how DCS has gone to the new WTIU + DCS App.
@rplst8 posted:However, I can't find the 990 Legacy Remote and Base set in stock anywhere, and it seems as though inventory on that item has been thinning for quite sometime. Is Lionel going to do a run of these soon? Or maybe release a new remote? Or is their plan to go to the iCab app and LCS WiFi module similar to how DCS has gone to the new WTIU + DCS App.
Lionel does have a full run coming..... in October. Just as with many electronics in all walks of life, it's been a component supply issue.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Truth be told, I have a lot of MTH locomotives and rolling stock, even a few accessories. Many of them are superior to similar offerings from Lionel. I also have a ton of Lionel stuff, and I'll likely have more in the future, and they make some great products as well.
Ding. People who don't actually work on their trains have no idea about the mechanical differences between manufacturers. About half my locomotives are Lionel, a little more than half MTH. I'm not brand loyal, I'm railroad loyal. I only buy ATSF and SP locomotives. MTH has made more Premier ATSF steam locomotives, so I have more MTH locomotives. Unless we're talking made in Korea early 2000s TMCC scale steam Lionel's steam locomotives are mechanically inferior to Premier steam locomotives. Smaller motors, unnecessarily complex gearboxes, and less robust drivelines, especially on their latest Legacy offerings. But most people just put the locomotive on the track and run it till something goes wrong, so they never know.
I have the latest release Legacy ATSF Northern and I ripped out the garbage Canon motor and replaced it with a Pittman. Now if I could only do something about that gearbox....
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Au contraire, I'm not agreeing with you.
You spend an awful lot of time in threads trashing MTH in general and DCS in particular. I don't agree with your stand on that, so please don't tar me with the same brush. I realize you're a huge Lionel fanboy, but they're not the only train manufacturer, and all of the hobby suffers when a major player exits the scene. Truth be told, I have a lot of MTH locomotives and rolling stock, even a few accessories. Many of them are superior to similar offerings from Lionel. I also have a ton of Lionel stuff, and I'll likely have more in the future, and they make some great products as well.
That being said, it's not a cause for celebration when another maker is downsized or exits the market.
Wait minute. Please stop right there. I don't "trash MTH" nor do I "trash DCS." I most certainly dispute that. I do however, comment on the state of the hobby, and how it is evolving in real time. Right now, the real driver on those changes is a downsizing MTH. That's just the way it is and it will continue to hold everyone's interest. The other point I would make is I am by far not the only one here on OGR with the same level of interest or sentiment on how the hobby is evolving. I would invite you to read Rich Melvin's comments above. As he suggests "Follow the money."
And I would like also to say, I do enjoy reading your posts!
Cheers!
The future of the Remotes is that they have no future.
All remotes will soon be going the way of iPads or other "pads".
@Madockawando posted:Wait minute. Please stop right there. I don't "trash MTH" nor do I "trash DCS." I most certainly dispute that. I do however, comment on the state of the hobby, and how it is evolving in real time. Right now, the real driver on those changes is a downsizing MTH. That's just the way it is and it will continue to hold everyone's interest. The other point I would make is I am by far not the only one here on OGR with the same level of interest or sentiment on how the hobby is evolving. I would invite you to read Rich Melvin's comments above. As he suggests "Follow the money."
And I would like also to say, I do enjoy reading your posts!
Cheers!
Yeah, you do,…sorry, gotta call it like I see it,….your posts are all but fanatical about driving the last nail in the coffin,…seems like you can’t wait,….😕
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Yeah, you do,…sorry, gotta call it like I see it,….your posts are all but fanatical about driving the last nail in the coffin,…seems like you can’t wait,….😕
Pat
Hmm… no.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:That being said, it's not a cause for celebration when another maker is downsized or exits the market.
Well said.
The vast majority of my equipment is MTH but I did invest in the Legacy system last year and 1 Legacy engine. For a lot of reasons I am pulling for MTH.
I would like to see our hobby continue to flourish and attract new people, if for no other reason to keep volumes up and the fixed cost per unit down. The fact that no invester purchased MTH in its entirety suggests to me the volumes have been going in the wrong direction for the last several years.
@AlanRail posted:The future of the Remotes is that they have no future.
All remotes will soon be going the way of iPads or other "pads".
Gawd, I hope not. Touch screens and my fingers don't get along well.
Rusty
I am more of a DCS guy, but recently have acquired some Legacy locomotives and also have some TMCC engines.
I have a Legacy Command Base, an MTH TIU, a Lionel SER2, and an MTH Wifi unit on my layout. I run both systems through my phone as though they are one system (including the quilling whistle on the Legacy locomotives). I have mellowed with age and am enjoying running both.
The back and forth about brand loyalty serves no purpose to me. I buy what I like in road names that are specific to the locale and era that I'm modeling. That means I have both Legacy and DCS locomotives. I suspect that will be the case for me for the foreseeable future.
At present MTH is pumping out special runs in roadnames that appeal to me. All equipped with DCS. I think it remains to be seen what the plans are for the tooling MTH retained. I do know that there are additional special run engines that have been announced that will be delivered well into next year.
@Lou1985 posted:100% agree we'd all be ahead if 20+ years ago Lionel and MTH just adopted the DCC standard every other scale uses. But 3 rail has to be special.
Also people complaining about the cost of having both systems are being a bit silly. 10 years ago the cost to have both Legacy and DCS on a layout would be about $550, so the price of one locomotive. When someone with 100 locomotives and a large layout complained about the "cost" of the other system it was basically a brand loyalty argument.
Definitely agree with your first statement - it's one of those things where hindsight makes me shake my head and wonder why we let it happen.
Re your statement about "cost", I agree that the dollars are inconsequential compared to what we pay for a locomotive, but I disagree with your conclusion. To me, "cost" doesn't refer to money - it refers to the hassle of having extra wiring, extra remotes with different buttons, remembering which engines are Lionel vs. MTH, and possible electrical interference and other considerations.
@Mallard4468 posted:Definitely agree with your first statement - it's one of those things where hindsight makes me shake my head and wonder why we let it happen.
Re your statement about "cost", I agree that the dollars are inconsequential compared to what we pay for a locomotive, but I disagree with your conclusion. To me, "cost" doesn't refer to money - it refers to the hassle of having extra wiring, extra remotes with different buttons, remembering which engines are Lionel vs. MTH, and possible electrical interference and other considerations.
I can see how that can be an issue for some people. For me it wasn't. I didn't need any extra wiring to have both systems. I actually just run all my locomotives (PS2/PS3/TMCC/Legacy) from one remote, so that makes it easy for me as well. I get some people don't want to take the extra steps and it's fine. But complaining about the up front cost of having to buy two systems is silly, especially when it's less than the outlay for a locomotive. That was just a brand loyality battle, plain and simple.
