Odd Layout Behavior

It sounds like you need a few more power feeds to the track to evenly distribute the power around your layout

How often do you supply power to the track? You need both the negative and positive wires to be supplied to all points to evenly supply power. And what type of track are you using? Are your track connections tight enough? Have you looked at your track very closely to see if there is any rust underneath on the rails that might be a problem?

 

I have had some problems even with conventional running on a large layout.

Sometimes the problems are near a switch or accessory lock-on.

 

A friend of mine, nearby to me, uses power supply to each track section on his Gargraves layout. At first I thought it was overkill but after having problems with my layout I understand why he did that.

 

Lee Fritz

Running Command and Control Legacy 990 on Lionel Fastrack.

Since this is a med size bedroom layout in a folded dog bone shape, only one power feed.

 

Without knowing the track plan or your power, that the TMCC PWC take off would seem there is a power drop off. (Don't think these have any cruise control.) One power feed?

You might have to add more power feed leads

I tried using Lionel's Fastrack the other year and found it to be just as bad or worse then tubular track for electrical conductivity. What I did was a small 3 ft. by 9 ft layout in my upstairs bedroom and needed to supply two power supply points to the tracks.

I was using a 90 watt transformer with K-Line Interurban passenger cars, they ran fine until I get to the far side of the layout and then tried to stall out because the electric wasn't getting enough power to the far corner so I added another power supply and that fixed it. This was brand new Fastrack for your information.

 

Chip, you did not say what size layout, just it is a medium size layout.

For some people medium size can be 12 by 24 feet.

 

Lee Fritz

I believe the room size is 12x16.

 

I don't know about Fastrack, But On my 40' X 50' Layout using ATLAS Track(which is one of the best for conducting Power) I fed the Track every 4 Track Joiners. The track didn't lose any Power it was at the Joiners. I NEVER had a Slow down anywhere on my Layout. Sounds to me like you need more TRACK FEEDS!!  I ran a Main Buss down the Middle of the Layout of 14 Gauge House Wire and fed the Track with 16 Gauge Wire!!

 

Just some additional Info.

 

FREDSTYRAINS off of that

This is an issue I've been trying to overcome with my large public christmas display the past few years.  I hope to eliminate any power drops completely this year by supplying power every few feet with heavy gauge wire.  My small o-27 figure 8 layout even has two power feeds (one to each half of the figure-8)

You can't have TOO MANY!!! It's not how far, it's what kind of Track and how many "JOINERS"!!

chipset,

 

  What I do is locate the joint in between the slow point and where it shoots to higher speed, then jump between the joints track to track, not power supply to track. This will draw from the section with more power and even it out some.

 

Art

Chip you need to crimp your center power rail on your fastrak straight pieces a bit. I have trouble with my straight pieces all the time and it will effect your turns to and if you can screw down to a board its better not like i do on the carpet. The track works loose with train running over it and taking it apart alot. Also when you screw the straight track down make sure your pieces are tight together and put two screws in section and your turns every other one.     

To supply power to a large layout I would use 14 gauge wire as it can handle 15 amps at 120 volts. I had 12 gauge wire(20 amps) on hand so I used it instead of buying 14 gauge.

I supply power to every three sections of track, as my layout is 8 feet by 11 feet on the lower level and 6 feet by 8 feet on the second level.

 

Lee Fritz.

 

Your pullmore powered PWC's have 2 brushes per motor opposed to what, 7 or 8 or more on can motors?  They also don't have flywheels for smoother transitions.  It takes more startup voltage/amps along with more operating voltage/amps for a pullmore so the PWC's will be more sensitive to voltage drops.  As has been said, check your joiners and conductivity around your layout with a voltage meter if available. 

 

Stack 

I guess I'll be the Devil's advocate here; why would all the Legacy engines run equally well everywhere, but not the TMCC ones? They all need voltage to run and the track doesn't know if the engine running on it is TMCC or Legacy controlled...

I contend the TMCC units are having various signal strength issues to some degree. Some of the internal antenna's are better than others in my opinion, and I've been running Legacy and TMCC since TMCC was introduced in the mid 90's.

Easy way to check power distribution is to get out your multimeter and check the actual voltage in various sections that have issues WHILE and engine is running through them. That way you'll know if VOLTAGE is the issue or not. If voltage is NOT the issue, then you have signal issues to solve in particular engines.

I presently have a 11' X 14' layout with all Atlas"O" track & turnouts. I have four equally spaced drops for the entire layout and have no voltage drop issues. I have run one FasTrack layout with 0-48 curves that came with my Amtrak HHP-8 set; I ran it on the carpet and had no issues with that set slowing down with one power feed. Admittedly it was new track, but if the center rail joiners are indeed in good shape, you shouldn't be seeing your PWC set "shoot-off" at a full gallop unless it's having TMCC signal issues.

 It's those **** pullmor motors!!!

 

They eat electricity It takes 12v or 15v just to get them moving. It blasts off after the power feed because its getting more power from the feed.

 

Add more feeders, one pair of feeders really isn't enough for anything larger than a 40"x60" starter set.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I contend he's running in conventional and doesn't know it.  That's why the engine surges when it gets more power supplied to it at certain sections of track due to not having enough feeder wires.

Rick, I found on a very hard to get to and hidden (tunnel) rack sections of my layout, 2 track sections that were barely connected.

Train worked well before this section and poorly on and after it.

Amazing the trains did not derail.

As Chessie stated the pins work their way loose, and in fact he has pieces that dont even hold together well.

Same here, had to fix those trouble sections last night and secure them better so I never have to crawl under there again and up that access hatch.

As soon as I test everything out, I am going to wire the TPC in.

You have a connectivity problem.  You can try crimping the center connectors as advised, and really should install so more feeds.

 

I have to say that when I read the title, my first reaction was; "Well, I sometimes exhibit odd behavior around my layout, too!

Lee, question.....

Have you tried combining in conventional mode any Williams engines, with a PWC B-Units that have the FatBoy SuperBass speakers?

 

Lionel made 4 of them: TExas Sp, Southern, Santa Fe, and Rio Grande.

Lionel states in the manual to add these B-Units to any vintage Lionel Post War, Post War Celebration,  TMCC or Legacy engine.

Thus, I got the idea...why not add that B-unit which also sounds awesome in conventional mode to a Williams AA engine set to give them sound.

 

Makes sense on paper.

 

Unfortunately, the manual also states that when using that B-Unit in conventional mode, you must wait a few seconds for it to sense the conventional mode, before the diesel sounds kick in.

While you wait, you hear the familiar PWC static from these B-units.

That all works just fine.

However, when you place a Williams engine anywhere on the track, it seems to cause the B-Unit to not be able to sense conventional mode, and get past the initial static sensing mode,and never makes it to the sounds like it does when its on the track by itself or with a PWC engine.

 

I did this test in 100% conventional mode and only a transformer.

Any ideas why the Williams engine would keep this B-Unit from making the proper sounds?

When I run them I hear a static thump thump thump from that B-unit.

I thought I might isolate a block, place the Williams unit on it, and keep it powered off.

Then power up the B-Unit on the track, and one the sounds kick in, power up the block the williams engine is on to see if, that works.

 

My theory is the Williams unit keeps the B-Unit somehow from getting into the sound mode.

Ideas?

Chipset,

 

A question as to the approximate age of your Williams AA units, was it made before WBB or is it a WBB? That will have a lot to do with the electronics inside the A unit.

If it has QSI on the circuit board it is from the Crown Edition from around 1989 to 1995(approx date). If it has WRL(Williams Reproduction Line) stamped on the frame or fuel tank it was from the late 1990's to sometime into the 2000's, maybe 2002.

 

I have had problems with Williams engines and Lionel switches in O gauge track, Lionel part # 6-23010 & 6-23011. The switch would act up when ever a Williams motorized engine got within three straight track sections of the switch but didn't do this when ever a Lionel or MTH engine would go through the same switch only a few minutes later.

So I suspect a problem with the Williams AA units and your Lionel B units not being 100% compatible.

 

I have not run Lionel engines and Williams engines together before so I can't say what your problem could be. To solve it I would say to keep the Lionel B unit away from your WIlliams engines.

I have noticed that Williams engines act differently with the Lionel CW-80 transformer then with the MTH Z-1000.

 

Lee Fritz

Interesting Lee, this is F unit came in the Red box and not the newer silver ones.

I will check the box for dates and/or a part number and post.

I am using an MTH Z-1000.

Chip,

 

See what is on the box please. Does it have Crown Edition? Or what? Does it say where it is made? Also on the engines look at the fuel tanks and the frame; is there a WRL or not?

 

This will help date it.

 

Lee Fritz

Here ya go, check out the pics...looks like pre-bachmann, but nothingthat says "crown".

 

They are Williams engines, most likely a couple of years before the Bachmann buyout.

I suspect they have similar circuit boards that my SD-45's have. There is something about the Williams circuit boards and certain Lionel items not mixing right at times, I don't know what it is but it happens.

 

An MTH Z-1000 works very well with all my Williams engines, so I would venture to say the problem is in mixing Lionel and Williams engines together.

 

Lee Fritz

Chip,

 

I would suggest getting a Williams B unit and using that as the B unit rather then the Lionel B unit. The sound from the Lionel might be off or distorted but long term it might lead to some circuit harm with the Lionel B unit.

 

This is just my two cents but don't mix engines from two or more companies together as it will lead to problems. Also try to stick with what the manufacturer suggests using, like with MTH PS-2 engines don't use the Lionel CW-80 with them.

 

Lee Fritz

I have been using Williams engines and passenger cars since around 1997 on my layout and have found some interesting things about them. The engines can have about five different circuit boards in them and the wheelsets in the trucks can be metal or plastic on the SD-45 non-powered axle, depends on when they were made.

But getting back to the issue of Williams and Lionel being compatible together for engines I won't try it and don't suggest others to try it. I have many more years of experience with Lionel then Williams.

 

Lee Fritz

So you think its some kind of electronic noise interference?

Remember, the B-Units have no power other than 2 lights and the sound.

My guess is similar to what you feel, i.e. can motor electronics versus Pullmor solid state and Pullmor/TMCC.

My best guess is that the Williams circuit board has something in it that the Lionel B unit don't like. Whether it is a capacitor or diode or some other part it definitely don't like it.

 

I have replaced a Williams circuit board on an older Williams engine with a bridge rectifier because I didn't like the way the engine started up, so now it runs the way I want it to run.

 

Lee Fritz

Thanks Lee, well it sure was a great idea on paper!

Next step will be to add sound to those Williams Engines and C&C.

Chip,

 

If you want to add cruise control or sound other then the Williams TB-2 horn you will have to remove all the electronics, but leave the motors & wires intact.

 

I think that ERR or electric railroad sells a version of TMCC that you can install or have installed in the Williams engines.

 

Lee Fritz