UPDATE: WE ARE LIVE !!! - Office Lobby Shelf Layout

Hi Neal:

I have a shelf layout, but your photos say "image not found".  I will check back later.

Gary

I am embarking on an office shelf layout as well. 

Good luck and pictures still not showing up.

I think I got the pictures fixed ok.  Sorry about that.

Progress has begun on re-doing the lobby in preparation for the layout.  I have reviewed multiple topics on these forums concerning shelf layouts, and was wondering if anyone had any new preferences or thoughts for MDF vs. Plywood.  From what I've read there can be more distortion over time w/plywood, but better screw security over MDF.  This would be in an air conditioned & heated lobby; moisture & humidity haven't been major issues in the past.  Comments would, as always, be appreciated. 

I'm trading services with a client and we were able to get the wallpaper down a couple weeks ago.  A minor roof vent leak we discovered has been fixed.  Today we've started mudding & will repair a patch of drywall that we partially removed with the 40 year-old wallpaper. 

It'll be at least 2 coats of mud, plus touch-up, before we can paint. Going to use a light grey ("Gravity")_ for the walls and a dark grey ("Crucible") to go over the dark brown trim (crown molding, door, windows).  The grey should make for a nice autumn/winter sky backdrop.  While trains will be running year-round there will definitely be a special focus on Halloween (have MTH train on order) & Christmas (should have full scale PE train as well as CP Christmas train for this year).  

I should have about a foot between the ceiling and top of the board for scenery and plan on using foam board and several MTH buildings with Christmas lights to scenic a small passenger station area, as well as residential, and commercial areas in the corners of the layout. 

That's all for now.  Hopefully these pictures load ok - they look fine on both my computer & cell phone.  Will post again when there's progress. 

The room is looking really good!  I used MDF for my Ceiling Central RR, and it has worked out okay.  I agree on the statement that it has less chance of warping, but doesn't take screws as well as plywood.  Since mine is in a basement family room, I used precut and finished shelving.  A foot clearance should work nicely.  I only have 7 inches because of the low ceiling and it makes it harder to see what I'm doing, and leaves less room for scenery, which I only have made a minimal effort to date.

Thanks to all for the replies! 

John - I would definitely do that at home (if I ever get around to that layout...)  but I'm not sure if I'll do too much scenicing re: background, as it is still an office lobby.  I'm hoping the grey paint serves as a somewhat effective October-December Midwestern sky.  Not sure if I'll paint the shelf itself white or dk. grey yet.  I may eventually ballast the inside edge of the track, though at over 6.5' high most low things won't be visible.  I plan to do some small hills & elevations of foam as sands for buildings & scenery given the time.  Probably several, spanning multiple seasons - one in snow, one green & lush, & for autumn.  Would be good use of the corners of the 4'x8' boards at the end, which I'll be preserving for structural integrity. 

Would love to be able to get the paint up by the end of the week. I'll keep y'all posted!

- Neal

Doug - Very nice!  Thank you!  Have you noticed any issues w/the wood warping, etc.?  I'm probably leaning that route vs. MDF right now. 

Also, the drywall is patched & 1st coat of mud complete.  Just have to find a time to do 2nd coat & sand, then painting can begin.  Won't get done this weekend, though, with my stepson's graduation and holiday.

No problem at all with any warping, the Baltic Birch plywood is extremely stable, after cutting and some fine sanding the polyurethane gives it a furniture grade finish. If the price has risen like that common plywood be prepared for sticker shock, this was done some years back before most building materials went nuts.

I will make one very strong recommendation, based on a lesson learned with this project. Before cutting and doing your sub-assembly for final installation not only do you need your dimensions to be accurate but also check your dimensions from opposite corners. This is a step I didn't think about but learned when I started installation. The "cookie-cutter construction"  of homes tends to leave rooms that don't have square corners. Was a real pain going up-n-down that step ladder to make minor adjustments so everything fit properly.

+1 on Birch plywood.  I have pieces (circular and straight) for elevated track on seasonal layouts that get stored in the garage.  No warping over several years of crappy summer storage in mid-Atlantic heat and humidity.  Cannot say the same for softwood ply.  I would not touch MDF as it needs support on all edges to retain its shape over time.

I concur with leaving the outside corners on for stiffening.

To support a long bridge, use angle or square tubing under the bridges.  I find that aluminum angle with 1/8" walls is stiff for supporting bridges.  You might consider aluminum U-channel of a width that matches the underside of the bridges - it will be very stiff even over long spans.  Check out onlinemetals.com for available shapes.

Another vote for Birch plywood...

BTW, fastening the wall brackets firmly is paramount.  Fastening the sub roadbed (birch ply) to the wall brackets is next most important. 

However, fastening the track to the roadbed is, IMHO, a matter of keeping the track from shifting side-to-side.....because gravity does a pretty good job of keeping things 'down'.  IOW, don't fret too much about a lot of thread power in keeping the track in place.

Now then, I would strongly suggest the addition of a safety wire/railing on the outside of the shelf to retain locos and cars that would like to be Tootle....off the rails, picking daisies.  If there's a chance a client or co-worker could find themselves under attack from falling trains, your insurance company would probably appreciate this addition.  It need not be celebrated.  That is to say a run of wire about a half inch above rail height should be adequate and not obstructing the view of the trains that much.  On the commercial installations I've done, I found that the eye lag screws...

...used mainly in the hanging of suspended ceiling rails/panels are a very handy, inexpensive, quick way of providing support for a safety wire....for which I use a very thin steel cable, such as included in picture hanging kits but certainly available in bulk, cut-to-length at larger hardware, home improvement stores.

Other than that....have fun. 

Oh yes, another lesson from the School of Hard Knocks....keep your train controls out of reach of curious customers.  There's 'hidden', and there's 'locked'.  One client found that 'hidden' doesn't mean much to determined Easter egg hunters and masters of playscapes....or bigger kids who never were smacked for inappropriate curiosity!

FWIW, of course...

KD

Thank you all for the advice!  I will definitely look for birch plywood & try to avoid soft.  KD, I do like the safety wire idea - more subtle than a couple inches of Lexan screwed to the edge.  Surprised only 1/2" is enough, but will do!

I think I'm leaning towards painting the wood that dark grey to match the rest of the trim. Any suggestions for wall-mounted supports?  I was thinking I might craft those out of plywood, too, especially if I can't find prefab wood ones and for areas where a longer support is needed. 

The main walls of the lobby have been mudded, sanded, primed, and painted!

Hoping to get trim pieces, sills, and door done soon.  After that I can work on the shelving! 

Thanks for your interest and input; I'll keep you posted!

- Neal

The room is looking great Neal!!  While I normally prefer stained wood for the natural beauty, I think the paint will help blend in so the train will stand out more.

Started painting the dark trim last weekend.  After that the painter just needs touch-ups & to do the bathrooms, then we can get to building the shelf! 

Neal, I used dimensional birch for the support brackets. The vertical pieces are 1x2 with the horizontal pieces being 1x3 or 1x4 depending on how long they need to be for proper support. They are assembled using screws and dowels as well as a really good quality carpenters glue.They are all attached to wall studs except for the ones in front of the ceiling height closet doors which are attached to the ceiling joists.

I do not trust dry wall hangars for anything that will possibly have to support the weight of an articulted steam engine or possibly some die cast hoppers, etc.

Doug - Thanks!  I will definitely consider that for the supports if I go with the wood look.  I agree w/respect to drywall hangers.  Even if I did use metal brackets everything would be screwed into the studs.  

It's been a busy summer & I apologize for the lack of an update.  The lobby is basically done (save the door) and my father & I will get to work on the layout in the coming weeks (once they get back from vacation).  In the meantime I couldn't help but toy with the layout & added a super-long siding.  This would allow me to park a train while running another.  I believe I've got 4.5" center rail to center rail at minimum.  It would require 1 foot shelving on the front side of the layout vs. 8", though.  A neat idea, or should I leave well-enough alone?

I think the siding is a good idea. You have to get a 1' piece of cardboard or something and place it up on wall and decide if you think that it extends outward too much. being able to alternate trains will save on maintenance and wear and provide an option to avoid boredom. heck, you could even time them to alternate.

I would make the route of the active train on the room side for a single.

Here's a thought that makes folks shudder for some reason. In a thread discussion of a shelf layout upside down supports were proposed. Many went ballistic thinking it would fall. The member that proposed the idea, then, provided photos of his work.

The bracket wall leg was virtually invisible above the shelf because of the viewing angle. Doing it this way, he was able to install crown molding under the shelf for a very nice finished look.

But remember now your running train will be on the inside and harder to see unless you make the outer loop the siding. To me if your going to do a siding the whole length,  why don't just do two loops and put one about 4" higher ( the one closest to the wall ) and then you could run two different trains at one time. 

Fridge56Vet posted:

Thank you all for the advice!  I will definitely look for birch plywood & try to avoid soft.  KD, I do like the safety wire idea - more subtle than a couple inches of Lexan screwed to the edge. Surprised only 1/2" is enough, but will do!

 

 

- Neal

 

From your 6/11/18 post - here is a sagulator  to calculate the load bearing capacity of a shelf. They only offer fir for a material choice, but, birch is stronger and has more plys and better glue.

When I did mine I used 1" x 12" x 8' Boards. Still had to add at corner for curves but it worked well and I used O54 track.  

Here are some photographs of my shelves.  They are in a basement family room, where the ceiling is split with the bulkhead for the load bearing I beam and ducts.  The trouble is, there are jogs on two adjacent walls.  With 12" wide shelves, I can run 2 separate loops, with 2 trains running.  I am fine with my engines that need only 042 and 40-foot boxcars, but I run in trouble with my 60-foot passenger cars.  The overhang, just barely clips cars going the other way on the jogs.  042 inside loop, and 054 outside loop.  I have shelf brackets underneath, screwed into studs on the 2 paneled walls, brackets from above on the bulkhead, and anchors in the joists coupled to all-thread on the brick wall.  I never dressed it all up because no one really sees it but me and my wife.

Moonman posted:

I think the siding is a good idea. You have to get a 1' piece of cardboard or something and place it up on wall and decide if you think that it extends outward too much. being able to alternate trains will save on maintenance and wear and provide an option to avoid boredom. heck, you could even time them to alternate.

I would make the route of the active train on the room side for a single.

Here's a thought that makes folks shudder for some reason. In a thread discussion of a shelf layout upside down supports were proposed. Many went ballistic thinking it would fall. The member that proposed the idea, then, provided photos of his work.

The bracket wall leg was virtually invisible above the shelf because of the viewing angle. Doing it this way, he was able to install crown molding under the shelf for a very nice finished look.

That's a pretty neat link, Carl!!!

Here is mine before I moved

Here's another alternative I may consider, though only good for shorter trains (only 50" of straight siding).  I'm worried that a double track will be just overkill for an office lobby, though this could be a compromise plan. 

The "bridge" over the front desk space has been purchased & is sg. track so I'm locked into that.  I'm thinking about just mounting the whole thing to a sg. 8' board & foregoing the pylons (would have to re-mount electronics for Xmas lights). to maintain structural rigidity.  I'm a fan of late steam & scale passenger cars, so weight is very much a factor for me. 

A big thanks to all who have posted in reply of late.  Summer's been a bit crazy at the clinic but hoping to start actual layout construction in a couple of weeks.  I will keep you posted!

- Neal

Well, if I'm gonna go with a 12" deep board on the front, I may as well have some small sidings....

Neal   

i used 3/4" plywood in 1992 when i installed my twin shelf operation at our mountain cottage. At the time a friend in the cabinet business was having difficulty with MDF and he didn't like its extra weight. Anyway, the plywood shelves were located in the Domestic CEO's  14x32 kitchen/ breakfast room and she insisted that it be stained to closely match the cabinets. Our deal was that I got the wall space in exchange for getting my RR off her Den carpet.  Sadly old age intervened so I removed the operation in 2008 in anticipation selling and relocating to our Greensboro Condo and source of better medical facilities. 

Airborne ladder railroading , nothing like it.

Hey Dewey those are the same shelf brackets i used on my old shelf layout. Lowe's sold them to me for like .80 ea as a contractors bundle. They were very sturdy once you got them tight up against the wall.

Dewey Trogdon posted:

Neal   

 

Airborne ladder railroading , nothing like it.

 

 

Hey Dewey, hope all is well.  Your NCDOT F59PHI, is it the City of Salisbury or City of Asheville?

Ron

Fridge56Vet posted:

Well, if I'm gonna go with a 12" deep board on the front, I may as well have some small sidings....

Put your siding closest to the wall so you don't hide the train that is running. 

Salisbury Ron. I'm still kicking but not very mobile or flexible!

I already have the O80 loop of ScaleTrax, so I'm a bit locked in there.  Wish they had O80 switches; I'd just have a couple spurs into the corners.  I prefer (& have) scale passenger cars & articulated steam so I want to take advantage of the larger curves.  May just stick w/my original loop....

Dewey - I've seen your pics before & I do like those supports - I've been considering something similar.  I can see the screw holes at the bottom, but how did you anchor the rest?  I presume they're set into studs?  Thx.

- Neal

Neil- If you build the siding, make sure the spurs are long enough to fit what you intend to put up there (spare loco's, etc). Otherwise they will be a waste. Put it to the wall side so that you don't block the view of the running train.

Hey Mark- this one looks vaguely familiar.....

banjoflyer posted:

For better grip in MDF make sure you use "coarse" thread drywall screws. It really makes a difference. There are many brands to choose from.

 

Also avoid "overdriving" the screws as that can lead to stripping out the screw hole. Essentially the screw becomes a drill bit and reams out the threads it just cut in the MDF.

Mark

I would recommend SPAX star drive screws. I have used them for quite some time. Get 'em at the Depot.

Dick

RSJB18 posted:

Neil- If you build the siding, make sure the spurs are long enough to fit what you intend to put up there (spare loco's, etc). Otherwise they will be a waste. Put it to the wall side so that you don't block the view of the running train.

Hey Mark- this one looks vaguely familiar.....

Bob, yes I do see what you mean!

Fridge56Vet posted:

I already have the O80 loop of ScaleTrax, so I'm a bit locked in there. Wish they had O80 switches; I'd just have a couple spurs into the corners.  I prefer (& have) scale passenger cars & articulated steam so I want to take advantage of the larger curves.  May just stick w/my original loop....

- Neal

A ScaleTrax #4 can be used to make a siding off of the curve, then, with a cut ScaleTrax O80 curve to bring the mainline back to parallel you could make a nice smooth move to long siding that only requires about 8" in width.

Neal-"Fridge",etc

RE: Your question on attaching wooden supports to studs on shelf RR-showing bottom shelf of two:

The store-bought (Lowe's-1992) decorative wooden supports had a recessed metal bracket or hanger on the back near the top for hooking over a screw head. The bracket had a round hole to receive the screwhead with a slot above to slide down on the bracket ( the wood support was recessed enough to allow the screwhead to slide up into the bracket slot)  First, I replaced the short screws holding the bracket to the support with longer ones. Then I ran a 3" screw into the stud leaving only enough of the screw head out to clear the drywall surface to receive the support w/ bracket, tapped down in the bracket slot for a very snug fit. Then I installed the bottom 3" screw into the stud through 2 pre-drilled holes. One shallow hole for the screw head diameter to receive a covering plug and one for the stud screw shank diameter. Hopefully with your magnifying glass the old crude, faded sketch below will show some of the detail:

My track was all Gargraves flex due to the non-standard curves. For example O-156 on the track nearest the wall at one end of the room. I had to bring the raised elevation of the lower shelf( 7'-6" above floor) wall track down to cabinet shelf level to enable tunneling through the Domestic CEO's pantry which had only an 8' ceiling whereas the room ceiling was 20' at the ridge. 

Photo below shows Clinchfield Challenger with 30 hopper consist on high track of top shelf above kitchen sink. Photos were low quality due to point and shoot camera and reflection from plexiglas safety fence and skylight. 

I think I've tentatively decided on version 4A below.  Will try to order more ScaleTrax & Flexxbed this week.  Unfortunatley, my grandmother is starting to decline & was moved last week, so dad & I may not be able to synch our schedules to get this done by Halloween.  Will keep you posted, though. 

Dewey:  I've seen similar things at Lowe's/Home Depot, but they may not be wide enough for the corners.  Thinking about maybe using some solid metal (~1/8: thick) L-brackets that I came across there to mount into studs & bolt shelf above.  Could paint to match wall, shelf. 

As always, all thoughts & suggestions are greatly appreciated. 

Looks like a plan.

 I’m sorry your grandmother is declining.  I’ll pray for her and your family!

Thanks, Mark.  BTW - I enjoy monitoring your progress on the Blackwater Canyon Line.  Good luck on the expansion!